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Why wouldn't you exile the Grey Wardens?


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#376
Gamyu

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Care to cite where you got a dozen from? Actually, never mind, I think I know. You're pulling all your "lore" from the BSN. That's the only place, aside from the quartermaster in Haven, who also insists that Loghain wasn't a traitor, despite what Loghain himself has to say on the matter, that that information was thrown about. I know, I was in those conversations. That's the thing about actually using lore, as opposed to "Well, this is what I think".

So, Maric allowed the Wardens back into Ferelden. How long before the 5th Blight did he do that?

How many Wardens were successfully recruited from the time Maric allowed them to return, and the events in Origins?

How many Wardens were in the camp we couldn't access from Ostagar?

What difference did they make?

Did you actually play DAO...it stated multiple times that there were very few Wardens in Ferelden. If you play Dwarf Nobles, you also get to meet a group traveling with Duncan, which was probably all of them. Wardens also tend not to recruit when there isn't a Blight, which is why Duncan was recruiting when at the beginning of Origin. What difference did they make...well, if we are going with the low number, 10-20 Wardens don't make much a difference against an army of darkspawns, the hundreds at Orlais-Ferelden Border make a big difference. 

 

Seriously, the argument went from exile the Wardens or not, to only needing one Warden to end the Blight, now it's what difference do a few Wardens make against the Blight?



#377
Maverick_One

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Because if their forces weren't enough to stop the Blight after it destroyed Denerim, then the forces we exile wouldn't matter anyway, because there are less there, than what the Orlesian Wardens had at the border, along with all their troops. So I guess we're screwed no matter what, right? If we exile them, according to popular opinion, we're screwed, and if we keep them, according to you, we're screwed, because there's no way they can end a blight w/out plot armor?

How do you know? History is full of long shots succeeding but remove those Long shots and would someone step and  have the skill, the luck or combo of both to succeed where they shouldn't?

 

Way I see it every Grey Warden matters and unless they start being buddies with an Archdemon might be wise to keep them around no matter how small a force they are.


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#378
Maverick_One

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Maybe because I seemed to need to explain to robert that probably the best reason not to exile them is so Orlais isn't destroyed before the next blight is stopped, assuming it starts in Orlais but we can only really guess where it would start. Also darkspawn chronicles is not what I described, but yes same conclusion, Fereldan is destroyed.

 

The topic is why wouldn't you exile the Grey Wardens, what possibly saving an entire country isn't a good enough reason?

I was agreeing with you and just showing an example of where your conclusion would lead. Different route same end.


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#379
Father_Jerusalem

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Maybe because I seemed to need to explain to robert that probably the best reason not to exile them is so Orlais isn't destroyed before the next blight is stopped, assuming it starts in Orlais but we can only really guess where it would start. Also darkspawn chronicles is not what I described, but yes same conclusion, Fereldan is destroyed.

 

The topic is why wouldn't you exile the Grey Wardens, what possibly saving an entire country isn't a good enough reason?

 

Considering they're working for the guy attempting to doom the entire world... no. It's not.

 

The Inquisition has no reason to trust the Grey Wardens. And every reason not to.



#380
Gamyu

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Considering they're working for the guy attempting to doom the entire world... no. It's not.

 

The Inquisition has no reason to trust the Grey Wardens. And every reason not to.

Where it did say that the Wardens are working for Cory? I know that they were tricked by that one Venatori Mage while the Fear Demon sent out the Fake Calling to them, and thus unknowingly almost make a demon army for Cory, but actually working for Cory? Those Wardens must be great liars. They must also be in line volunteering to be the next one Cory transfers his soul to when he dies.


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#381
VelvetStraitjacket

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I always exile those idiots.



#382
skotie

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Considering they're working for the guy attempting to doom the entire world... no. It's not.

 

The Inquisition has no reason to trust the Grey Wardens. And every reason not to.

They were working with him but yes but considering the people of Thedas, your right they could just as easily be manipulated again. I feel like exiling them just endangers future generations though, as your not really holding them accountable for their crimes anyways with exile.

 

But of course punish them severely and let them stay is not an option.



#383
Maverick_One

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Where it did say that the Wardens are working for Cory? I know that they were tricked by that one Venatori Mage while the Fear Demon sent out the Fake Calling to them, and thus unknowingly almost make a demon army for Cory, but actually working for Cory? Those Wardens must be great liars. They must also be in line volunteering for to be the next one Cory transfers his soul to when he dies.

No I believe someone told them that was the buffet line. Wardens do eat a lot according to Alistar. Durn decieving Demons and Venatori. Seriously though the Templars never got tricked by the Lord Seeker and a demon. The Wardens should be more like the Templars.... Oh wait the Templars got tricked by the Lord Seeker and an Envy demon. NVM.

 

So why conscript or ally with the Mages or Templars but yet condem the Wardens seems a bit hypocritical to me.



#384
Hazegurl

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So wait, you want to use the word of a lying traitor to support your position? Back in the day, there used to be speculation, but since he flat out admits it at Adamant, it erases all doubt. The fact is, only one Warden will strike the killing blow, and it's usually the oldest/closest to their calling, since they know it's fatal. It would be possible to get one in position, if you only have one, but the "reality" is, we have more than one. They are exiled, not dead. No matter how long it takes them to get to where ever they need to go, we're still going to be able to get one Warden to the Archdemon, once we figure out exactly where it is. In the meantime, it's business as usual, fighting the darkspawn to cull their numbers until we get a fix, then nighty night Archdemon. I get it, really I do, they are your heroes and should be above reproach. The fact is, it's up to the Inquisitor if they are or not, and that could very vary between games. I have, myself exiled them, and let them stay in consecutive play throughs. All this melodrama about the next blight? It's not going to affect my decision, one way or the other. Why? Because I actually remember how Blights are combatted.

lol you have zero guarantees of that. How many near calling GWs died before they could even weaken the Archdemon? Does anyone know? What we do know from DAO is that Riordan was the oldest and he died trying to take down the Archdemon. Now imagine if he was the only GW in your entire army and everything relied on him getting to the Archdemon. For all we know, many GWs have tried during the battle and died before they got the chance but once it was weak enough to be killed, then the oldest remaining made the sacrifice.  Relying on one Warden in your army of non wardens to reach the Archdemon is nothing more than a 1% chance of success, perhaps even less than that. Too high of a risk for me but to each his own.

 

Also, no one is an expert on how Blights are combatted. We have DAO with a heavily plot armored special snow flake PC.  There are a million ways both he and Alistair could have died. Heck they almost did on the tower in Ostagar. Now unless Flemeth is willing to aid your lone GW, your chances are very slim. If that's really your method. Have fun with that. And you seem to be arguing pretty hard in favor of exile despite claims of being unbiased. You also seem to think that not choosing exile is automatically done out of favoritism to the GWs and for no other reason. :rolleyes:


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#385
Gamyu

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No I believe someone told them that was the buffet line. Wardens do eat a lot according to Alistar. Durn decieving Demons and Venatori. Seriously though the Templars never got tricked by the Lord Seeker and a demon. The Wardens should be more like the Templars.... Oh wait the Templars got tricked by the Lord Seeker and an Envy demon. NVM.

And the Mages got tricked by...once again...the Venatori...seriously want to exile the Warden? Kick out your Templar/Mages army while you're at it.  Heck, after the Fear Demon gone, the only thread to the Wardens is the Cory's body transfer things, while the Templars or Mages can still go Red.



#386
EdwinLi

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Why have so many people misred this choice as effectively being "disband the Wardens" when all it does is kick them out of Orlais?

 

The Dialogue does not just cover just Orlais but all of Southern Thedas which means the choice includes the Ferelden Wardens.

 

If you exile the Wardens you are exiling all of Southern Thedas Wardens including the Ferelden Wardens from Southern Thedas.

 

Both Oghren and Nathaniel will most likely be among the Wardens if you banish them since they are Southern Wardens as well.



#387
Maverick_One

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And the Mages got tricked by...once again...the Venatori...seriously want to exile the Warden? Kick out your Templar/Mages army while you're at it.  Heck, after the Fear Demon gone, the only thread to the Wardens is the Cory's body transfer things, while the Templars or Mages can still go Red.

Exactly.



#388
skotie

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I was agreeing with you and just showing an example of where your conclusion would lead. Different route same end.

Sorry thought you didn't see my point for bringing it up. If there was more options to consider in this particular situation I wouldn't pick "Let them Stay". I can understand how people feel about what they did but I'm still not seeing how leaving at the very least Orlais, worst all southern Thedas without any warden presence is going to help things in the long run.

 

I mean couldn't there have been an "Execute those responsible, send word to Weisshaupt Fortress of their crimes" as a third option? The wardens who were stupid get punished, future generations are safe with new wardens sent from Weisshaupt to replenish ranks.



#389
Father_Jerusalem

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Where it did say that the Wardens are working for Cory? I know that they were tricked by that one Venatori Mage while the Fear Demon sent out the Fake Calling to them, and thus unknowingly almost make a demon army for Cory, but actually working for Cory? Those Wardens must be great liars. They must also be in line volunteering to be the next one Cory transfers his soul to when he dies.

 

Cory issues The Calling. Grey Wardens ally with the Venatori mage. The Venatori are working for Cory. The Grey Wardens are working for Cory.

 

I mean.... it's not rocket surgery.



#390
Chari

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Because they are heroes ready to die if it means saving others?
And because their plan was actually pretty cool if their blind trust wasn't so stupid. Yeah, a giant hole to the Fade appears and spawns demons. Sure, trust this tevinter mage who appeared out of nowhere

#391
hexediter

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1. The Calling does not drive wardens insane in a very short amount of time.

 

The time span of DA:I is many months, probably several years, at least if you want to allow time for evacuating Haven, the long march to Skyhaven, establishing a new home, all the diplomatic messages being sent back and forth, merchants to establish permanent trading routes, alliances to be made with noble families, and, of course, all the sightseeing done by the Inquisitor), and the Grey Wardens at Adamant aren't showing any surprise that they've been hearing the Call so clearly for months without going insane, nor is Loghain/Alistair/Stroud, who after all has been a Warden for more than a decade and must have learned a bit during that time. They've got other reasons for thinking it might not be the Call at all, but they don't say, "it isn't because I haven't gone insane yet". All Grey Wardens know that it is an eventual death sentence one way or the other if it is the real Call, but driven insane in a short amount of time? If they thought that was the case, surely somebody would have commented on it when it didn't happen.

 

You don't need troops that are immune to the taint to fight the blight. The vast majority of troops fighting in all the blights have not been immune. You also don't need blight immune troops to wound an archdemon and get its blood, since, if you did, there would have been no first joining, due to there being nobody blight immune around to get the blood.

 

 

2. It is a tradeoff.

 

If nobody chooses to maintains peacetime abilities to detect the taint, they may be slower to respond, resulting in a blight that is worse. On the other hand, with everybody knowing how to build capabilities in the event of a blight, they'll be able to respond when they do act, ideally by using archdemon blood they already have, or, failing that, by planning how to get some from allies or directly from the source.

 

So you might end up with a blight that was much easier or much harder to deal with than the first four, depending on how exactly that fell out.

 

Regardless of whether any country would maintain peace time capabilities or not, they'd have a huge advantage over people during the first blight, because they know what to do rather than having to fight delaying actions against an ever spreading blight until somebody came up with a miraculous solution.

 

Finally, as was clearly shown with the 5th blight, that somebody is capable of giving early warning doesn't matter at all if they aren't being listened to, and that is the case regardless of whether it is Wardens or governments that have the capabilities.

 

 

3. It is entirely possible, even likely that countries would go to war over blood if it was in extremely limited supply or supplies ran out in some countries and not in others, depending on how long since the last blight it had been when this scenario occurred. If nothing else, it could make a convenient excuse for anybody bent on territorial expansion.

 

That is still, to my mind, much less of a risk to run than having a single point-failure in the secretive Grey Warden organization. Compared to the destruction of a blight, or the horror scenario of a blight that is never stopped, ordinary wars pale by comparison.

 

It should also be noted that we have no idea how much archdemon blood is needed or how much remains in Grey Warden hands at this point. They might be on the brink of running out, they might have enough to share for any conceivable future, or anything in between.

 

What we do know is that whatever they got from the previous blights was enough to last the Grey Wardens across the continent for at least the four centuries between the 4th and the 5th blight. Sure, the archdemons are big, but it still that suggests that very, very, little is needed per joining ceremony. Well, either that is homeopathy works in Thedas. :P

 

(I wonder exactly what happened with the blood of the 5th archdemon, now that I come to think of it. Did the Warden and Alistair, after a manly victory shout, no doubt, cry out for buckets to collect blood in?)

 

We also know that to kill an archdemon in the first place you need only to have the knowledge currently in possession of the Grey Wardens and to be able to wound him, so if the world ends up in a situation where nobody has the blood, it will be known how to recreate the capability to kill archdemons by wounding it and collecting its blood or doing a non-permanent kill and collecting blood and getting it out of there come hell or high water, then using it on people and killing it for good months or years later.

 

If, however, the information on how to kill archdemons was lost with the Grey Wardens, it is entirely possible that the knowledge would never be recreated in time unless somebody desperate happened to have the same idea as the first Grey Wardens did, "hey, I'd wonder what happens if I mix darkspawn blood with lyrium and archdemon blood and drink it," and tried if it worked.

 

1.  You're making assumptions here I'm not willing to join you on.  Measuring time in a RPG is very tricky unless they tell you how much time has passed, for example everything that happened in origins supposedly took place over one year but you have no idea of that while playing.  What we do know is that when the wardens start to hear the calling they go the the deep roads to meet their end in battle before they lose their mind, after saying there goodbye's.  That doesn't suggest to me that they have a lot of time to do whatever they want.  It seems obvious that they don't immediately go crazy but to suggest that they have a lot of time left seems to go against what we have been told and isn't supported by the Wardens actions in this game quite simply.

 

As for not needing troops immune to the taint, I suggest that it would depend on how bad the blight is.  If it's bad enough I think you would need it or you're never going to be able to make up ground and get to the arch demon.

 

2.  The early warning absolutely matters.  Sure Ferelden largely wasted the opportunity they had at Ostogar but don't forget that the wardens can sense the Archdemon itself when it awakens.  They immediately know it's a real blight, which is why Duncan recruits your warden.  If he doesn't do that, Ferelden is done.  Now that's some major Monday morning quarterbacking and a lot of luck was involved there but you can't say it didn't matter when it clearly did.

 

Furthermore, if the calling is still happening I'm not sure at all that they have a huge advantage over even the first blight when they won't be able to use taint resistant warriors in any long term ground war.

 

3.  I simply disagree, this is a threat that can strike anywhere so on the one hand your idea is not without merit, but I trust governments and their motivations much less then I do a group that exists only to deal with the threat.  Real problems with the wardens would be ignoring their original mandate (like the seekers) or corruption from within to bend their power to other purposes (which is what that fade demon and Cory are doing here).  Nations can and will decide to help or not help with any blight not in their own borders.  The Wardens exist in part because they are supposed to be neutral, they can go into any nation and provide aid, and there is a need for this to be case.  You remove a single point of failure but you create a larger chance for failure at any of those new points.  That might work for some things, but I'm not sure it works for the blight.


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#392
Gamyu

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Cory issues The Calling. Grey Wardens ally with the Venatori mage. The Venatori are working for Cory. The Grey Wardens are working for Cory.

 

I mean.... it's not rocket surgery.

The Fear Demon in the Fade is the one sending out the Fake Calling. The Grey Wardens didn't know that that guy is a Venatori. Try again.



#393
DarkSpiral

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I didn't miss a thing, and the surviving Wardens evidently didn't either. They knew they were manipulated and in the wrong, and if you choose to exile them, they don't take up arms to fight that "injustice", they leave. Evidently, they're wiser than some people give them credit for.

But let's look at the glaring flaw in their plan, shall we: They're going to stop the Blights by drastically reducing their numbers to replace them with Demons. Hey, they don't need food, probably can't be corrupted, but they also can't slay an archdemon, at least not permanently. I know, "No problem Rob, they still have an army of mages that can", which assumes that said army lives to get to the Old Gods. One Horde 1/2 the size as what was at Ostagar, and their brilliant plan means that they're all dead, with no Wardens in the South should a Blight occur. Being exiled, they can return to fight the Archdemon, but there's really no coming back from death by stupidity to do it. I'd also like to point out that romanticism aside, the only reason we need Wardens to end a Blight is because they're the only ones that can permanently kill an Archdemon. Sure, they make great shock troops against a horde, but since we haven't seen a horde, and we have no Archdemon, we have no Blight. At this stage, they're a luxury, and a risky one, metagaming excluded.

I am not defending the plan.  I just want to make that clear.  It was an idiotic idea, born of desperation and fear.

 

That said, if they kill the Old God before its ever tainted, and transformed into an Archdemon, than  the necessity for a Grey Warden to deliver the killing blow no longer applies.  The reason the Archdemon can reconstitute itself is by transferring into another tainted creature.



#394
AlexiaRevan

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I yelled at them and told them sprout died for them . But didn't exile them . I was playing a Qunari Mage who didnt care much for rules and watever . Just like I took the Geth to face the reaper....knowing the risk . They were needed . Nothing more and nothing less . 



#395
robertthebard

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Did you actually play DAO...it stated multiple times that there were very few Wardens in Ferelden. If you play Dwarf Nobles, you also get to meet a group traveling with Duncan, which was probably all of them. Wardens also tend not to recruit when there isn't a Blight, which is why Duncan was recruiting when at the beginning of Origin. What difference did they make...well, if we are going with the low number, 10-20 Wardens don't make much a difference against an army of darkspawns, the hundreds at Orlais-Ferelden Border make a big difference. 
 
Seriously, the argument went from exile the Wardens or not, to only needing one Warden to end the Blight, now it's what difference do a few Wardens make against the Blight?


I want to know if you actually played Origins. The only answer we ever get to "How many are there" is "Too few". That is not a numerical value. This is a statement towards there not being as many as Duncan would like, but really, w/out an Archdemon on the field, the number is, largely, irrelevant. Despite the claims that Grey Wardens can magically end Blights w/out massive amounts of destruction, the Wardens on the field at Ostagar were wiped out, even w/out an archdemon on the field. So keeping the Wardens in Southern Thedas or not is largely irrelevant. We're not in a Blight, and people point out that Cory isn't controlling hordes of darkspawn. Really, given his nature, I'd figure what would be the bulk of his army, but it's not. So, no blight. No blight means that we really don't need the Wardens. An Inquisitor can base their decision on evidence provided in game to that point, and not be wrong, either way.

The only place they'll be wrong is here, because deep seated hero worship. The romanticized notion that just being there means a blight will be "instantly" ended, despite evidence to the contrary in Ostagar, a place where we're not even sure on an exact count, but we have you, in the DN origin, trying to convince us that the Wardens with Duncan were the entirety of his force, but guess what, Alistair's not there, and as the newest recruit that we're aware of, it doesn't make much sense to leave him in charge of the Warden camp at Ostagar.

#396
Soulinet

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You just can't afford to have them around when you're fighting against an ancient darkspawn who can mind control them. For everyone's sake, they have to go, at least until Corypheus has been defeated. It's not the first time Grey Wardens are exiled, and Thedas seems to have survived just fine.



#397
robertthebard

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lol you have zero guarantees of that. How many near calling GWs died before they could even weaken the Archdemon? Does anyone know? What we do know from DAO is that Riordan was the oldest and he died trying to take down the Archdemon. Now imagine if he was the only GW in your entire army and everything relied on him getting to the Archdemon. For all we know, many GWs have tried during the battle and died before they got the chance but once it was weak enough to be killed, then the oldest remaining made the sacrifice.  Relying on one Warden in your army of non wardens to reach the Archdemon is nothing more than a 1% chance of success, perhaps even less than that. Too high of a risk for me but to each his own.
 
Also, no one is an expert on how Blights are combatted. We have DAO with a heavily plot armored special snow flake PC.  There are a million ways both he and Alistair could have died. Heck they almost did on the tower in Ostagar. Now unless Flemeth is willing to aid your lone GW, your chances are very slim. If that's really your method. Have fun with that. And you seem to be arguing pretty hard in favor of exile despite claims of being unbiased. You also seem to think that not choosing exile is automatically done out of favoritism to the GWs and for no other reason. :rolleyes:


This scenario has already been covered. Ferelden falls, and the Orlesian Wardens clean up the mess.

We have a perfect example of how Blights are combatted: The Treaties. We've covered this though. It's hard to see, through the haze of hero worship, but it's explained fairly well when you discuss what the treaties are, and when you use them. It's also evident in the Battle of Denerim, unless you're now going to tell me that Anora is the only non-Warden there?

#398
Abaddon_86

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Seriously, is there any sensible stance in favor of letting them stay? I know we all love them as a whole, but the branch we deal with in Inquisition was faced with trouble and defaulted to USE BLOOD MAGIC TO SUMMON A DEMON ARMY. If it were any other faction, we'd put every one of them to the sword, but nostalgia for Origins means that almost everyone let them go with a promise to not do it again. Ridiculous!

 

 

My power-mongering Mages in any DA game never had any issues with Blood Magic, so why on earth would I banish the GWs?

They meant well, but were intentionally written extremely stupid by BW.

Don't blame that on the GWs as a whole.



#399
Sasie

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One thing to remember is while the darkspawn remains a threat the warden's don't do that much to correct that. They mostly guard against the blight and the blight itself doesn't seem that scary anymore. Fereldan, Orzammar and one tribe of Dalish managed to stop an blight all on their own, might been a close call but considering the state Fereldan was in the blight should have overrun the entire nation before the Warden could unite the different factions to fight against the archdemon.

So honestly with only two old gods left to go the Grey Warden's might have done their part. The world has recovered from the fall of the Tevinter Imperium and are much more prepared to deal with threats then they were in the early days and the most powerful of the old gods seems to have already been dealt with.

Trying to reshape the Grey Wardens or find a new solution for the darkspawn might be a better a idea then keep some super secretive order around. Especially since the wardens proved they are not immune to corruption in their ranks.



#400
EdwinLi

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One thing to remember is while the darkspawn remains a threat the warden's don't do that much to correct that. They mostly guard against the blight and the blight itself doesn't seem that scary anymore. Fereldan, Orzammar and one tribe of Dalish managed to stop an blight all on their own, might been a close call but considering the state Fereldan was in the blight should have overrun the entire nation before the Warden could unite the different factions to fight against the archdemon.

So honestly with only two old gods left to go the Grey Warden's might have done their part. The world has recovered from the fall of the Tevinter Imperium and are much more prepared to deal with threats then they were in the early days and the most powerful of the old gods seems to have already been dealt with.

Trying to reshape the Grey Wardens or find a new solution for the darkspawn might be a better a idea then keep some super secretive order around. Especially since the wardens proved they are not immune to corruption in their ranks.

 

 

Well if you allow them to Stay the Southern Wardens will work towards reshaping their Order along with finding a new solution to deal with the matter.

 

If they leave well they just disappear with the Northern Wardens and we won't learn about their fate until either a Weisshaupt DLC for DAI or until DA4.

 

I swear if they made the exile plot to be that the entire Warden Order is destroyed then I'm sticking with the Stay Choice.