1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Zu Long]

I couldn't justify Exiling them because they just finished demonstrating what could happen if I left them unsupervised. I'd rather be in control of them then leave them to their own devices in another land.

[Father_Jerusalem]

The Fear Demon in the Fade is the one sending out the Fake Calling. The Grey Wardens didn't know that that guy is a Venatori. Try again.

 

Just because they're too stupid to realize that the guy who shows up and is all "HEY GUYZ I CAN HELP U SUMMON DEMONS AND KILL ALL THE THINGS! WOO!" is, you know, BAD doesn't mean they're not working for Cory.

 

It just means that they're idiots who are working for Cory.

[Kenshen]

Well, to fight the next Blight seems a pretty compelling reason. 

 

Anyone that knows how to use a sword, bow, or magic can fight a blight.  Not once does anyone that knows tells our Inquisitor why wardens are so needed during a blight.  Without that info and considering what was done to them and what they did being banished would be kind.

[hellbiter88]

Grey Wardens got a serious character assassination in DAI.

I'm amazed by this as well. Like even Blackwall's backstory is disgracing.

 

wtf happened?

[hellbiter88]

I found it hard to make a judgement on this in game, because I felt the whole storyline was so ridiculous. From the panto villain Eremon, the utterly contrived storytelling device of the fake calling affecting *all* wardens, the apparent lack of knowledge about Corypheus being alive despite it being in the newspaper, and the absurdity of them thinking they could create and control a demonic army large enough to search all the Deep Roads and find the Old Gods before the darkspawn (who live down there and are always searching). The sheer geographical size of the area to cover (Bianca points out that the Deep Roads cover all of Thedas), means that this mission is just the height of unworkable idiocy. And that's before we even get to the idea of it never being a good idea to beat one evil by summoning another with a ritual you barely understand.

 

Don't the wardens ever stop to wonder why Tevinter in its heyday wasn't able to defeat all its enemies through the use of demons alone, if they really were that powerful and easy to control? Haven't they learned the lessons that pretty much every single attempt at mass demon summoning ever attempted has ended in complete disaster? Or that by sacrificing their already low numbers, they will need to summon many, many times more demons than the people they are losing?

 

Its such a stupid plan from top to bottom, that I couldn't engage with it at all. And basically every charater who talks about this plan in the game agrees - they all think its a fantastically idiotic idea, and one so utterly foolish that they can't even begin to understand how the Wardens could possibly have gone along with it. Its the same with the silly Mages questline and their 'Let's sell ourselves into Tevinter slavery - that's the way!' in that it was just so daft that I could't make an informed judgement. Because there is just no way any of this would actually happen. The whole premise was simply too silly to take seriously.

 

So in the end, I let them live. Because the game seemed to have hit the reset button on this anyway. Stroud's sacrfice and Eremon being arrested seemed to be the game saying 'The Wardens are good guys again now - tune in for next week's thrilling episode 'Mother Giselle becomes a Cannibalistic lesbian werewolf - for the good of the world! Will our hero agree with her well meaning actions?!'

 

If they're going to pull stupid storytelling stunts like this, I reserve my right not to care one way or the other.

 

 

I should NOT have been drinking coffee when I read this.

[Vulcan25]

Two things that bother me about the exile. It's not just Orlais, though aside from Alistair/Loghain no other Ferelden Grey Wardens shows up at Adamant, or at least its not stated in game.

 

My other problem with it is that it shouldn't be the Inquisition's decision. Whether you're banishing them from just Orlais or not, it shouldn't be your decision to make. Celene/Gaspard should have at least been brought up along with whoever rules Ferelden. It just seem odd that its never brough up that your Inquisitor can make a decision like that without even consulting the rulers of the country or countries affected by it.

[Gamyu]

I want to know if you actually played Origins. The only answer we ever get to "How many are there" is "Too few". That is not a numerical value. This is a statement towards there not being as many as Duncan would like, but really, w/out an Archdemon on the field, the number is, largely, irrelevant. Despite the claims that Grey Wardens can magically end Blights w/out massive amounts of destruction, the Wardens on the field at Ostagar were wiped out, even w/out an archdemon on the field. So keeping the Wardens in Southern Thedas or not is largely irrelevant. We're not in a Blight, and people point out that Cory isn't controlling hordes of darkspawn. Really, given his nature, I'd figure what would be the bulk of his army, but it's not. So, no blight. No blight means that we really don't need the Wardens. An Inquisitor can base their decision on evidence provided in game to that point, and not be wrong, either way.

The only place they'll be wrong is here, because deep seated hero worship. The romanticized notion that just being there means a blight will be "instantly" ended, despite evidence to the contrary in Ostagar, a place where we're not even sure on an exact count, but we have you, in the DN origin, trying to convince us that the Wardens with Duncan were the entirety of his force, but guess what, Alistair's not there, and as the newest recruit that we're aware of, it doesn't make much sense to leave him in charge of the Warden camp at Ostagar.

It was stated multiple time that there are very few Wardens in Ferelden...not that there are not as many as Duncan would have like. 

 

The notion is with Wardens to defend, the Blight has a higher chance of being stop, or at least slow down. There's a reason Wardens are stationed in every nation of Thedas, either stop the Blight by killing the Archdemon if it appears, or at least slow down the Darkspawns army until reinforcement from other part of Thedas arrive. To "instantly" stop the Blight, the Archdemon have to appear right there next to the Wardens, which is great and all, but the Archdemon isn't stupid.

 

Or we can do it like you want, leave Southern Thedas with no Wardens to defend, and if a Blight starts there, leave the Darkspawns to normal soldiers. Great idea...

 

Just because they're too stupid to realize that the guy who shows up and is all "HEY GUYZ I CAN HELP U SUMMON DEMONS AND KILL ALL THE THINGS! WOO!" is, you know, BAD doesn't mean they're not working for Cory.

 

It just means that they're idiots who are working for Cory.

So, they're working for a guy they think is dead?  Wow, we really should kick them out, and while we're at it, we should kick the Templars or Mages for going Red, they're also too stupid.

[robertthebard]

It was stated multiple time that there are very few Wardens in Ferelden...not that there are not as many as Duncan would have like. 
 
The notion is with Wardens to defend, the Blight has a higher chance of being stop, or at least slow down. There's a reason Wardens are stationed in every nation of Thedas, either stop the Blight by killing the Archdemon if it appears, or at least slow down the Darkspawns army until reinforcement from other part of Thedas arrive. To "instantly" stop the Blight, the Archdemon have to appear right there next to the Wardens, which is great and all, but the Archdemon isn't stupid.
 
Or we can do it like you want, leave Southern Thedas with no Wardens to defend, and if a Blight starts there, leave the Darkspawns to normal soldiers. Great idea...
 
So, they're working for a guy they think is dead?  Wow, we really should kick them out, and while we're at it, we should kick the Templars or Mages for going Red, they're also too stupid.

As amusing as this has been, do keep them, if you want to. We all know, there are no consequences, either way. Hence keeping them doesn't mean you made the "right" choice, you just made the choice that's right for you. GL with that.

[Zeroth Angel]

- Why wouldn't you exile the grey wardens?

 

Because of blights.

[Dave of Canada]

Considering the options seem to suggest they are vulnerable to corruption, I exiled them. I didn't mean permanently, only while we're dealing with Corypheus. Unfortunately, that makes sense and the game doesn't give me that option so I exile them permanently because I like the idea of a Warden civil war in the Anderfels with Loghain and the Warden-Commander involved.

[Father_Jerusalem]

So, they're working for a guy they think is dead?  Wow, we really should kick them out, and while we're at it, we should kick the Templars or Mages for going Red, they're also too stupid.

 

Well, I disband the Templar Order and imprison the mages, so... yes. They were stupid. They worked for the enemy. They get punished for it.

 

I fail to see how punishing people for their actions is, you know, a bad thing.

[LiquidLyrium]

Indeed they did... 

I feel like DA:O showed them as hero's and it was inspiring. I always will remember Ali's speech at the end of Origins, "But most of all, today we show the Grey Wardens that we remember and honor their sacrifice! For Ferelden! FOR THE GREY WARDENS!"

 

Each and every faction in Thedas is deplorable and we can't simply exile them all.

 

And did you forget that you, the PC could act with almost utter impunity in DAO for the sake of stopping the Blight? You could take the swords of random peasants, you could corrupt the urn of sacred ashes. You could personally annul the Circle at Kinnloch Hold. You could send elves off to slavery in order to get paperwork to implicate Loghain in the act of said slavery. You could murder Genitivi, one of Ferelden/Thedas's most prominent scholars. You could murder your companions, under certain circumstances. You got to decide the political fate of a nation even though the Wardens maintain that their purpose is not political. Your goal may have been heroic, but the road to get there was not necessarily one of sparkling heroism.

 

The Wardens do fight an incredible evil, but honestly, they keep way too many secrets and they are way too eager to do terrible things for the Greater Good. 

 

I think Hawke is absolutely right. The Wardens need more checks on their power, and they need to keep less secrets. I mean, if nothing else, what would have happened if all the Wardens had fallen under Corypheus? (Presuming Corypheus had still been defeated.) How would the world have fought the Blight in the future without knowledge of how to conduct the Joining? I'm sure the Wardens have records but they are jealously guarded and.. it's just a problem waiting to happen, considering that the Wardens numbers tend to shrink between Blights.

 

I mean, how much of DAO was Alistair saying "Oh by the way," "OH by the way," "OH BY THE WAY." Like, man, even for a pretty relaxed bff Warden, that's like.. "You could have told me this sooner."

 

I mean, Corypheus is exactly the sort of problem the Wardens should have been getting outside help on, given his influence over them. Maybe if they hadn't just buried it, somewhere over the course of 1000 years, someone could have figured out how to kill the guy.

 

I mean, DAI left me with the impression that everyone in Thedas is a horrible secretmonger, and that is why Thedas is so effed up, so it's not just an opinion I have that is restricted to the Wardens.

[justanotherusername]

I could not banish them. My inquisitor remembered their heroism in the recent blight. 

I don't get how so many people developed feelings for Stroud. If the choice was between Alistair and Hawke, I could see the moral dilemma for people, with Loghain it just seemed like the perfect redemption for the former villain. Stroud is just so...meh. Thinking back, I don't understand why his role in DA:II was not filled by Loghain if he was alive, other than he mentions at the end of Origins (and possibly start of Awakening) that he is going to Orlais. Just ends up as a weird filler character, which personally I don't have any connection to other than "...he recruited Carver to the Wardens".

 

Anyway, given the epilogue with the Southern GW possibly breaking free from Weisshaupt, I am excited since my HoF is by far the most senior member left in the order, and as (missing) Warden-Commander of Fereldan, should be first in line for the First Commander of the Southern Wardens 

[Giantdeathrobot]

The biggest undoing of the Wardens is their martyrdom culture, I think. When you confront Clarel, she almost immediately starts on the ''we die for a world that won't thank us'' rhetoric, and I wished I could just yelled ''No you stupid woman, you die because you're using blood magic and summoning an army of demons at the behest of a Snidely Whiplash knock-off!''. It seems they have difficulty having perceptive beyond their duty to fight the Blight.

 

The whole ''at any cost'' thing is fine, you don't want squeamish goody two-shoes fighting the Darkspawn. At the same time, it appears that the Wardens jumped straight into the ''at any cost'' aspect without stopping by the ''hey we might try out lesser costs first, right folks?'' step. As Erimund says, he only had to dangle the ritual in front of the Warden's face and they couldn't wait to kill and brainwash their own numbers to fulfill their martyrdom fantasy. They really should have asked themselves why, at the same time that the Calling suddenly manifested for every single Warden, that Tevinter mage comes out of nowhere and offers a solution.

 

That, and their culture of secret needs to go. I get why not everyone has to know that they drink Archdemon blood in a ritual that involves blood magic lite, but seems to me that stuff like keeping Corypheus hidden was asking for trouble.

[Gamyu]

Well, I disband the Templar Order and imprison the mages, so... yes. They were stupid. They worked for the enemy. They get punished for it.

 

I fail to see how punishing people for their actions is, you know, a bad thing.

Why aren't they exile like you want with the Wardens? And earlier you want to kill all the corrupt Wardens, which I haven't heard about any Wardens summoning demons in Weisshaupt or something...so...

Where did you get the idea that Wardens work with Cory from? I can't find it anywhere in the game. The mages Wardens get mind control, the others get tricked by the Venatori and Fear Demon, but willingly working with Cory, a DARKSPAWN that is trying to destroy the world?

 

Their action is also...well, in the gray area, while it was certainly bad, it's for "the greater good." 

[HeroxMatt]

It's very much an "us against the world" attitude that results in this secretive order in the Wardens. They think no one thanks, understands or praises glory on them so they keep to themselves. Exiling the Grey Wardens would perpetuate this. Allying them with the Inquisition, showing how potentially heroic they can be in times that aren't Blight, is the right thing to do.

[Gamyu]

The biggest undoing of the Wardens is their martyrdom culture, I think. When you confront Clarel, she almost immediately starts on the ''we die for a world that won't thank us'' rhetoric, and I wished I could just yelled ''No you stupid woman, you die because you're using blood magic and summoning an army of demons at the behest of a Snidely Whiplash knock-off!''. It seems they have difficulty having perceptive beyond their duty to fight the Blight.

 

The whole ''at any cost'' thing is fine, you don't want squeamish goody two-shoes fighting the Darkspawn. At the same time, it appears that the Wardens jumped straight into the ''at any cost'' aspect without stopping by the ''hey we might try out lesser costs first, right folks?'' step. As Erimund says, he only had to dangle the ritual in front of the Warden's face and they couldn't wait to kill and brainwash their own numbers to fulfill their martyrdom fantasy. They really should have asked themselves why, at the same time that the Calling suddenly manifested for every single Warden, that Tevinter mage comes out of nowhere and offers a solution.

 

That, and their culture of secret needs to go. I get why not everyone has to know that they drink Archdemon blood in a ritual that involves blood magic lite, but seems to me that stuff like keeping Corypheus hidden was asking for trouble.

The Adamant plot is really weak, so yea. Main plot will be just shorter if Wardens didn't get such serious character assassination. 

 

Also, the world really doesn't thank them, so Clarel does have a point...very few people actually think highly of Wardens nowaday.  I'll just leave this quote from The Calling here, "You will guard them and they will hate you for it. Whenever there is not a Blight actively crawling over the surface, humanity will do its best to forget how much they need you. And that's good. We need to stand apart from them, even if they have to push us away to make us do it. That is the only way we can ever make the hard decisions."

 

Actually, this quote should sum up this whole argument.  I don't care anymore what people think about the topic, I'll just laugh when people run to the Grey Wardens when the next Blight starts with those new Darkspawns from Awakening and the possibility of Intelligent Darkspawns helping run the show.

[DemGeth]

Not worth my own soldiers dying to send the wardens away.

They want to repent and fight battles for me that's great.

[Giantdeathrobot]

The Adamant plot is really weak, so yea. Main plot will be just shorter if Wardens didn't get such serious character assassination. 

 

Also, the world really doesn't thank them, so Clarel does have a point...very few people actually think highly of Wardens nowaday.  I'll just leave this quote from The Calling here, "You will guard them and they will hate you for it. Whenever there is not a Blight actively crawling over the surface, humanity will do its best to forget how much they need you. And that's good. We need to stand apart from them, even if they have to push us away to make us do it. That is the only way we can ever make the hard decisions."

 

Actually, this quote should sum up this whole argument.  I don't care anymore what people think about the topic, I'll just laugh when people run to the Grey Wardens when the next Blight starts with those new Darkspawns from Awakening and the possibility of Intelligent Darkspawns helping run the show.

 

See, that's not character assassination at all as I see it. They carried the Idiot Ball a little by trusting the Tevinter mage, but the tendency of Wardens to go for extreme options, use blood magic and have poor leadership is well storied. Just think of Sophia Dryden or the Corypheus fiasco. That's not new to Inquisition at all.

 

It's true that the world fails to be thankful. But, you know, that comes with the job. If you seek recognition, well, don't be a Warden, you didn't choose the right career at all. Unless you're the one who kills the Archdemon, I suppose.

 

Hey, at least, unlike their inspiration (Night's Watch), they don't need to freeze their balls off a Wall while vowing chastity. A Warden's life is no picnic, but you're at least part of something important. Better than to be Lord Such And Such's poorly trained cannon fodder. And if nothing else, female Wardens are allowed at least  .

[Stakrin]

They are incredibly dedicated to their cause. I am now their cause. Seems good to me.

[Navasha]

I couldn't exile them in my first playthrough.   For the most part, they are heroes.    There wouldn't be a world without them.   They also only sacrificed other wardens for the blood rituals, so again... they really only harmed themselves (as far as they consciously knew).

 

Also...   at that point in the story, seeing as Cory seems to have the same power as an archdemon...  I figure its probably going to take a warden to help kill him.   Haven't finished it yet, so don't know if that's true or not.

[Aeralea]

Nope definitely didn't exile them.

 

Realistically at this point they know that they were duped and can preemptively ignore the false Calling. They can also stick around and fix all the crap that they broke. As Inquisitor I have a ton of other things that I need to worry about, running around picking up after Wardens isn't my job. They can clean up their own mess. Were they stupid the first time? Maybe. But when en mass your entire order is being called to their deaths I assume that would create a type of mass hysteria. People do lots of stupid things when they are afraid, fear trumps all other instincts. They look to their leadership for answers and everything rests on the shoulders of Clarel at this point. Thats a lot of responsibility to know what is the right decision to make. I certainly don't condone anything that the Grey Wardens did, however, I understand why they began to desperately clutch at straws. As much as it helps them to plead that they were 'controlled' by Corypheus, I don't feel as they were directly under some sort of Cory magic mind control. From what I could gather all the Wardens under Clarel's command were acting on their own accord despite their judgement being severely clouded by fear. When she heard that Cory could be behind her resolve was immediately shaken. The only ones who seemed to be directly influenced by Cory were the mages and this was referenced several times. So I'm guessing the mage Wardens would have to be kept under some sort of supervision.

 

The Wardens are needed for Blights... FACT. Do they have too much power? Maybe. Do they abuse their power? Yes absolutely. But not everyone. So you have a group of a thousand and within that group are a few bad eggs and then suddenly everyone is shouting accusations down from their mighty high horses... right. It is impossible for everyone to stand on the same moral ground, there are always going to be those that make the wrong decisions even when they think they are doing the right thing.

 

As for Hawke preaching about how the Warden's take things too far and need to be checked...Hawke wtf? You ran around constantly unchecked in Kirkwall and almost had the entire city blown to smithereens, of anyone you have least amount of road to be taking the high ground you hypocritical turd burger.

[Gamyu]

See, that's not character assassination at all as I see it. They carried the Idiot Ball a little by trusting the Tevinter mage, but the tendency of Wardens to go for extreme options, use blood magic and have poor leadership is well storied. Just think of Sophia Dryden or the Corypheus fiasco. That's not new to Inquisition at all.

 

It's true that the world fails to be thankful. But, you know, that comes with the job. If you seek recognition, well, don't be a Warden, you didn't choose the right career at all. Unless you're the one who kills the Archdemon, I suppose.

 

Hey, at least, unlike their inspiration (Night's Watch), they don't need to freeze their balls off a Wall while vowing chastity. A Warden's life is no picnic, but you're at least part of something important. Better than to be Lord Such And Such's poorly trained cannon fodder. And if nothing else, female Wardens are allowed at least  .

Really, so every Wardens in Orlais is hearing the Calling.  Too much of a coincidence, and rather a strange and serious problem, but rather than launch some sort of investigation, they just jump straight to killing their own brothers and sisters-in-arms for blood magic.  Then a senior Warden, someone of their OWN ORDER, feel like something is off, investigate the problem and then speak out about the issue, yet they try to hunt him down and than rather trust a random Tevinter Mage that come at also such a coincidence timing than that senior Warden. 

 

Desperation and going for the extreme would marching the WHOLE Grey Wardens Order, or at least the all Orlesian Wardens into the Deep Road.  Trusting a Tevinter Mage with blood magic, killing your own comrades, and replacing them with a demons army, because demons falling from the giant hole in the sky isn't enough. is stupidity. If the Wardens Order were portrayed as stupid before, then I would agree. So yea, I see that as character assassination, but guess you see it as something Wardens would do.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Really, so every Wardens in Orlais is hearing the Calling.  Too much of a coincidence, and rather a strange and serious problem, but rather than launch some sort of investigation, they just jump straight to killing their own brothers and sisters-in-arms for blood magic.  Then a senior Warden, someone of their OWN ORDER, feel like something is off, investigate the problem and then speak out about the issue, yet they try to hunt him down and than rather trust a random Tevinter Mage that come at also such a coincidence timing than that senior Warden. 

 

Desperation and going for the extreme would marching the WHOLE Grey Wardens Order, or at least the all Orlesian Wardens into the Deep Road.  Trusting a Tevinter Mage with blood magic, killing your own comrades, and replacing them with a demons army, because demons falling from the giant hole in the sky isn't enough. is stupidity. If the Wardens Order were portrayed as stupid before, then I would agree. So yea, I see that as character assassination, but guess you see it as something Wardens would do.

 

Given the Sophia Dryden and Corypheus incidents, the Wardens aren't above stupidity at all. No one is. So no, I don't think it's character assassination (a term which is thrown too lightly sometimes).

[BroBear Berbil]

It wouldn't surprise me if griffons are extinct because the Wardens sacrificed them all, hoping to trade up for teleportation or something.

 

When I exiled them I figured it would be for a few years. After all, we're talking about all of southern Thedas and I'm sure the Wardens would jump at the chance to return. I just wanted them out of the way and not posing any threat to the Inquisition as it dealt with Corypheus. Also, exile is getting off with a slap on the wrist. Mind controlled or not, the Wardens' involvement in killing Most Holy and blowing up her guests is grounds for a righteous purge in itself. Add a demon army and fighting against me...well, again, slap on the wrist.