1570 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

It wouldn't surprise me if griffons are extinct because the Wardens sacrificed them all, hoping to trade up for teleportation or something.
 
When I exiled them I figured it would be for a few years. After all, we're talking about all of southern Thedas and I'm sure the Wardens would jump at the chance to return. I just wanted them out of the way and not posing any threat to the Inquisition as it dealt with Corypheus. Also, exile is getting off with a slap on the wrist. Mind controlled or not, the Wardens' involvement in killing Most Holy and blowing up her guests is grounds for a righteous purge in itself. Add a demon army and fighting against me...well, again, slap on the wrist.

Cassandra: Tell us why we shouldn't kill you now.

She was ready to execute the PC in the opening scene of the game. But hey, you know, it's that "going to any lengths to end the Blight that we're not actually having right now", so it's ok...

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Mind controlled or not, the Wardens' involvement in killing Most Holy and blowing up her guests is grounds for a righteous purge in itself. 

Wut?

[robertthebard]

Wut?

Because assassinating religious leaders, and blowing up major religious shrines is a Bad Thing^TM

[BroBear Berbil]

Wut?

 

I'm saying, as the Inquisitor, I would have enough reason to kill every Warden the Inquisition could get ahold of in Orlais and Ferelden. Groups have been purged in real life for less than assassinating the head of a religion or blowing up hundreds of people. You probably wouldn't find many of the faithful who sympathized with them either.

 

You could also look at Ferelden after Wardens were involved in a plot to overthrow the king.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Because assassinating religious leaders, and blowing up major religious shrines is a Bad Thing^TM

 

I'm saying, as the Inquisitor, I would have enough reason to kill every Warden the Inquisition could get ahold of in Orlais and Ferelden. Groups have been purged in real life for less than assassinating the head of a religion or blowing up hundreds of people. You probably wouldn't find many of the faithful who sympathized with them either.

 

You could also look at Ferelden after Wardens were involved in a plot to overthrow the king.

 

How do they even involve with the assassination of Divine Justinia, and sabotage the peace talk between the Mages and the Templars. The only involvement the Grey Wardens had with Corypheus is that they were manipulated by Cory, Erimond to creating an army of demons for him. Nothing more than that. 

 

I think you should blame Sophia alone for drag the order into joining the rebellion. Since the rest of the order weren't too please with her decision, and they also condemn her action.

[robertthebard]

How do they even involve with the assassination of Divine Justinia, and sabotage the peace talk between the Mages and the Templars. The only involvement the Grey Wardens had with Corypheus is that they were manipulated by Cory, Erimond to creating an army of demons for him. Nothing more than that. 
 
I think you should blame Sophia alone for drag the order into joining the rebellion. Since the rest of the order weren't too please with her decision, and they also condemn her action.

How did you not get out of the Fade to make the decision to exile them or not, since you can't get out without recovering your memory?

[BroBear Berbil]

How do they even involve with the assassination of Divine Justinia, and sabotage the peace talk between the Mages and the Templars. The only involvement the Grey Wardens had with Corypheus is that they were manipulated by Cory, Erimond to creating an army of demons for him. Nothing more than that. 

 

I think you should blame Sophia alone for drag the order into joining the rebellion. Since the rest of the order weren't too please with her decision, and they also condemn her action.

 

In the Fade, you see Warden mages involved with Corypheus' ritual.

 

 

@ 7:45

 

As for Sophia, it was her and all those under her command. You had a group of Wardens, much like the ones left in Orlais in Inquisition, who did something wrong and faced death for it.

[Taleroth]

How do they even involve with the assassination of Divine Justinia

Wardens are the ones that held her down.

You know how Corypheus says "bring forth the sacrifice?" He's talking to Wardens.

[Vandicus]

How do they even involve with the assassination of Divine Justinia, and sabotage the peace talk between the Mages and the Templars. The only involvement the Grey Wardens had with Corypheus is that they were manipulated by Cory, Erimond to creating an army of demons for him. Nothing more than that. 

 

I think you should blame Sophia alone for drag the order into joining the rebellion. Since the rest of the order weren't too please with her decision, and they also condemn her action.

There were Wardens there at her capture(not sure if they were mind controlled).

 

In character, I don't believe its possible to acquire specific knowledge as to why Wardens are actually necessary, so it might be a bit metagamey to act upon the knowledge they're necessary to stop Blights(rather than simply assuming they're simply skilled warriors).

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

@robertthebard, @FrogDog, @Taleroth: Never mind, I forgot that part somehow but wasn't that a Warden mages who were enslaved by Corypheus. It's not like the entire order or at least the entire southern chapter of the Wardens was involved in this or knowing that they were being manipulated.

 

Spoiler

Lord Livius Erimond, a Venatori Magister, convinced Warden-Commander Clarel to use their blood magic techniques to raise a demon army and invade the Deep Roads and kill the Old Gods before they wake. Unbeknownst to the Grey Wardens, the demon binding rituals Erimond taught the Grey Warden mages however has the side effect of enslaving them to Corypheus

[Fardreamer]

Wardens are immune to the Blight. So they can't turn into ghouls which bolster the enemy. Wardens can sense the Darkspawn, so they can better out maneuver them. And finally, if you kill an archdemon without a warden, it is just reborn like Corypheus is.

That's why they're needed.

[Taleroth]

You don't need Wardens for that, you just need their ritual.

That's one of the reasons I hope Anderfels are next. Reform the Wardens as units and volunteers within existing armies, not their own power.

[Vandicus]

Wardens are immune to the Blight. So they can't turn into ghouls which bolster the enemy. Wardens can sense the Darkspawn, so they can better out maneuver them. And finally, if you kill an archdemon without a warden, it is just reborn like Corypheus is.

That's why they're needed.

 

The Inquisitor doesn't know that last bit. Given how the Archdemon was killed repeatedly in the First Blight, I don't think the first two actually warrant a huge concern. Sure its helpful, but Thedas's armies can apparently reach and kill Archdemons even with the attrition from the Blight and without the ability to sense darkspawn(can emulate that with scouts in a large scale conflict anyways).

[BroBear Berbil]

@robertthebard, @FrogDog, @Taleroth: Never mind, I forgot that part somehow but wasn't that a Warden mages who were enslaved by Corypheus. It's not like the entire order or at least the entire southern chapter of the Wardens was involved in this or knowing that they were being manipulated.

 

They could have been enslaved, sure. That doesn't change that it would be feasible, depending on your Inquisitor, to purge the Wardens rather than exile them, regardless of who is innocent or not. I guess it'd be kind of like anulling a circle.

 

It wouldn't be just but it would be justified.

 

Wardens are immune to the Blight. So they can't turn into ghouls which bolster the enemy. Wardens can sense the Darkspawn, so they can better out maneuver them. And finally, if you kill an archdemon without a warden, it is just reborn like Corypheus is.

That's why they're needed.

 

Things that aren't all common knowledge among characters in the game, and none of which have an immediate bearing on the story. At the time, you don't know how Corypheus survives and there is no blight or Archdemon. Anybody can kill darkspawn, and the blight sickness is mostly a plot device. It didn't take an army of wardens to fight at Denerim.

[Daerog]

They're not immune to the blight, they just pre-infect themselves so the corruption is more or less on their terms, and it slowly kills them, but they use its advantages while they can.

 

They may not become ghouls as we know them, but they can become monsters, a little similar to the Disciples if they do not die during their Calling.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

They could have been enslaved, sure. That doesn't change that it would be feasible, depending on your Inquisitor, to purge the Wardens rather than exile them, regardless of who is innocent or not. I guess it'd be kind of like anulling a circle.

I don't see any evidences to support your claim that the Grey Wardens are willingly cooperate with Corypheus, and willing to perform a sacrifice ritual on Divine Justinia. Clarel's reaction was rather surprised when she learned that Cory is still alive.

[hazarkazra]

To me this decision felt like integrating the remaining Wardens into the Inquisition, which seemed to the most sensible thing to do. The problem with the Wardens is that nobody watches over them who isn't a Warden himself, as such they are bound to make egocentric decisions like they made in Inquisition. Wardens do what Wardens do. I imagine that by having a Warden 'branch' of the Inquisition I could get them as my anti-Darkspawn weapon and possible cut them of from the less then stellar influence of themselves and the wardens in Anderfels. Like I may have misinterpreted the events, but I felt like the Inquisition taking over Warden related matters in South Thedas would be a great way to validate my existence.

[BroBear Berbil]

I don't see any evidences to support your claim that the Grey Wardens are willingly cooperate with Corypheus, and willing to perform a sacrifice ritual on Divine Justinia. Clarel's reaction was rather surprised when she learned that Cory is still alive.

 

When did I claim that they were willing? You're caught up on this mind control thing like it matters if you were hypothetically allowed to kill them. Willing or unwilling participants, killing the Wardens would be justified if the Inquisitor was so inclined. It's kind of a shame that you can't.

 

The decision could be pragmatic, political, or just plain spiteful but realistically it could be done and hardly anybody would even bat an eye at it. The Wardens are so damaged at this point and you could destroy their reputation with just their implication in the Divine's death. Guilt and innocence of individuals would be irrelevant at that point.

 

So again, they got off easy. Time for sleep.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

When did I claim that they were willing? You're caught up on this mind control thing like it matters if you were hypothetically allowed to kill them. Willing or unwilling participants, killing the Wardens would be justified if the Inquisitor was so inclined. It's kind of a shame that you can't.

 

The decision could be pragmatic, political, or just plain spiteful but realistically it could be done and hardly anybody would even bat an eye at it. The Wardens are so damaged at this point and you could destroy their reputation with just their implication in the Divine's death. Guilt and innocence of individuals would be irrelevant at that point.

 

So again, they got off easy. Time for sleep.

I agree with you on the Inquisitor had full justification to kill any Wardens who resist and fought the Inquisition, a Grey Warden mages who was enslaved, but whether the Inquisitor had justification to purge every Wardens in the fortress, even sane and uncorrupted wardens who surrender or help the Inquisition's soldier fight demons is debatable. 

 

I don't even think the Inquisitor has justification to exile or let the Wardens stay consider how everything happen on Orlais's soil. It's the decision that Orlais's monarchs should take part in this, and should have weight on final judgment not the Inquisition alone IMO. 

 

Yes it can be done, and most people wouldn't even care, but that would meant the Inquisitor is lying to the whole southern Thedas. The truth is irrelevant at this point when people are too upset over the Divine's demise. Yeah, I'd like to see how this decision come back and bite us in the arse in case the next Blight happens in southern Thedas, and there are no Wardens around or not enough Wardens to fight the Darkspawn.

 

Heh, well we can't have all the Wardens dying at once while the Darkspawn is still around. it's afternoon where I lived.

[PsyQUEpedia]

People tend to forget that before the mind-control part Calrel had to agree to let the wardens use blood magic to control demons. She made that decision of her free will and other wardens also did the same thing.The mind control only came after that particular warden started controlling a demon. That bit is explicitly shown. Theyare dangerous and don't do good internal investigations it is completely justified to kick them out of Orlais and Ferelden.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

People tend to forget that before the mind-control part Calrel had to agree to let the wardens use blood magic to control demons. She made that decision of her free will and other wardens also did the same thing.The mind control only came after that particular warden started controlling a demon. That bit is explicitly shown. Theyare dangerous and don't do good internal investigations it is completely justified to kick them out of Orlais and Ferelden.

You forget that Corypheus mimic the fake Calling, and when every Wardens in Orlais began to hear it they grew desperate and sought out allies to help them end all Blights before they perished. Their intention was good, but their method is damning. You shouldn't fully blame them when they were being manipulated in the first place.

[Gamyu]

Given the Sophia Dryden and Corypheus incidents, the Wardens aren't above stupidity at all. No one is. So no, I don't think it's character assassination (a term which is thrown too lightly sometimes).

Don't base the decision of one Warden on the whole Order. The other Wardens with Sophia also weren't happy with Sophia's decision, unlike these Wardens with Clarel who are fine with every decision she makes and doesn't question them.  Beside, trying to overthrow an evil King who rules with an iron fist is stupid? While it was wrong because Wardens are neutral, it's not stupid. 

 

No one is above stupidity, that's for sure, but in this case, it's seem almost EVERY Wardens in Orlais are stupid. Unless the requirement to join the Wardens now include stupidity, while also being a skilled fighter.

[Jackums]

I'm the opposite. I usually dislike the wardens and yet I didn't exile them because, um, you know, blights and stuff.

[Roamingmachine]

You forget that Corypheus mimic the fake Calling, and when every Wardens in Orlais began to hear it they grew desperate and sought out allies to help them end all Blights before they perished. Their intention was good, but their method is damning. You shouldn't fully blame them when they were being manipulated in the first place.

 

This. The wardens saw an impending doom on the horizon and when given a possible way of carrying out their duty before the end, they jumped at the chance. Hindsight is 20/20 but i personally can't fault the wardens for going along with the suggestions of the mage as it was the only course of action they could percieve.

[PsyQUEpedia]

I didn't forget it. It's just that an excuse to do bad is still an excuse. He mimicked the calling and many of them panicked and lost their cool, but obviously all of them didn't (Blackwall, Stroud, Loghain etc). Stroud mentioned in my game that he ignored it and nobody else would rationalize. Hundreds of wardens followed orders with no morality. Often war criminals when being tried say they were just following orders to excuse themselves from horrible crimes. Sounds like the wardens (and red Templars for that matter) to me.