1570 réponses à ce sujet

[justanotherusername]

I didn't forget it. It's just that an excuse to do bad is still an excuse. He mimicked the calling and many of them panicked and lost their cool, but obviously all of them didn't (Blackwall, Stroud, Loghain etc). Stroud mentioned in my game that he ignored it and nobody else would rationalize. Hundreds of wardens followed orders with no morality. Often war criminals when being tried say they were just following orders to excuse themselves from horrible crimes. Sounds like the wardens (and red Templars for that matter) to me.

 

Did you not finish his companion quest? I am more interested why Alistair (if king) does not mention this. Perhaps he has just accepted that one day he will hear the calling and just have to ignore it? Personally, I would imagine him going to Orzammar under a big ceremony and leaving for his calling then.

[Icinix]

A lot of the issues with Wardens seemed to be open to interpretation and never really clarified what we knew was happening.
More data required.

[MrMrPendragon]

Seeing as I have an Old God child running around somewhere (even if he is a good boy for now), AND he's being hunted by Flemeth who is in cahoots with the Dread Wolf, I think having the Wardens around is a plus.

 

I'm going to destroy Corypheus anyway, so there's no more threat to the Wardens but the Old Gods after that, and they're pretty used to the darkspawn by now.

[LexXxich]

Sending them away does not solve any issues that was posited by their plot line. It's akin to closing one's eyes and pretending problem went away. Maybe they'll get corrupted again, maybe they won't, but by sending them away you have no impact on that possibility, AND lose a fighting force.

Now if there was a choice between allying with them or destroying them (or at least Orlais chapter of them), there could be a discussion.

[The Jackal]

Because after everything you went through playing a warden in Orgins. Then to discover they were really just trying to help just mislead. Even better of a reason. Because I need them. They are like soliders that are already trained. Unless the main bosss can somhow turn them against you. (Which Hasn't happended yet) why would you throw away a group of soliders you could need.

 

I tried to banish them one time. Then the Iron Bull says "I hope we don't need them" caused me to exit out right away and replay that choice.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

The Warden organization has always been in a grey area for me (never made it to the Warden debacle in DA:I yet, slowly getting playtime). I guess that's why I liked them throughout the original game. I wouldn't be upset if the next DA featured any race to be a Warden, Carta, Templar, Mage from Tevinter , Qun member to explore each organization from the inside and develop the story from each perspective. I would definitely try a Warden out.

[satunnainen]

Why would I exile the wardens. They are needed in blights, and who knows when and where the next one will hit.

[Hazegurl]

This scenario has already been covered. Ferelden falls, and the Orlesian Wardens clean up the mess.

We have a perfect example of how Blights are combatted: The Treaties. We've covered this though. It's hard to see, through the haze of hero worship, but it's explained fairly well when you discuss what the treaties are, and when you use them. It's also evident in the Battle of Denerim, unless you're now going to tell me that Anora is the only non-Warden there?

*Sigh* There you go again sprouting your BS about hero worship...we get it, you hate the idea of keeping the GWs on.

 

Yes we have the treaties, and all they mean is that you have a right to call on additional aid to fight the Blight. Nothing more and nothing less. This is probably your weakest argument yet. As no matter how many soldiers, elves, dwarves, and mages you call on. You still need GWs at the end of the day, and as we've seen in Denerim, multiple GWs is better than just one. We saw with our own eyes, the failure of the plan to allow the oldest take the blow because of the depressingly low number they had available.  If not for the super special awesomeness of our PC and an ancient elven possible God, Fereldan would have fallen to awful past decision making.

[Hazegurl]

I think Hawke is absolutely right. The Wardens need more checks on their power, and they need to keep less secrets. I mean, if nothing else, what would have happened if all the Wardens had fallen under Corypheus? (Presuming Corypheus had still been defeated.) How would the world have fought the Blight in the future without knowledge of how to conduct the Joining? I'm sure the Wardens have records but they are jealously guarded and.. it's just a problem waiting to happen, considering that the Wardens numbers tend to shrink between Blights.

 

I also agreed with Hawke, the wardens do need more checks, especially when a Blight is not taking place. But I don't think the Joining should be made public. People are just way too ignorant in Thedas for me to believe that broadcasting the secrets of the Joining would be successful. People would soon run from the Wardens than accept their aid.  They need checks but they do need to guard their Joining secrets.

[robertthebard]

I agree with you on the Inquisitor had full justification to kill any Wardens who resist and fought the Inquisition, a Grey Warden mages who was enslaved, but whether the Inquisitor had justification to purge every Wardens in the fortress, even sane and uncorrupted wardens who surrender or help the Inquisition's soldier fight demons is debatable. 
 
I don't even think the Inquisitor has justification to exile or let the Wardens stay consider how everything happen on Orlais's soil. It's the decision that Orlais's monarchs should take part in this, and should have weight on final judgment not the Inquisition alone IMO. 
 
Yes it can be done, and most people wouldn't even care, but that would meant the Inquisitor is lying to the whole southern Thedas. The truth is irrelevant at this point when people are too upset over the Divine's demise. Yeah, I'd like to see how this decision come back and bite us in the arse in case the next Blight happens in southern Thedas, and there are no Wardens around or not enough Wardens to fight the Darkspawn.
 
Heh, well we can't have all the Wardens dying at once while the Darkspawn is still around. it's afternoon where I lived.

How do you think the Orlesians are going to handle the knowledge that the Wardens were directly involved in the event as the conclave that led to Justinia's death? They can't really declare an Exalted March, since the Chantry is pretty much toothless w/out the Templars, but they could march their own forces against them, and after the siege and the blood magic sacrifices, the Wardens aren't going to be in the best shape to do anything about it. Considering this, don't you think exiling them out of reach is the better course of action. If you did the ball first, you've ended the Civil War, and have the authority. If not, nobody really has jurisdiction over the Wardens, which is part of the problem to begin with, so you have the authority by virtue of having defeated them. There are, as we know, no consequences one way or the other, short of a few War Table missions that, if mishandled can result in all of their deaths anyway. We're not facing a Blight, and we're not fortune tellers, so we can't see the future, in game or out, so there's no "right" answer, only what feels right to the Inquisitor of the moment.

[lyleoffmyspace]

The Warden organization has always been in a grey area for me (never made it to the Warden debacle in DA:I yet, slowly getting playtime).

 

Yep that's why they're called the Grey Wardens

 

Exiling them is stupid. The Wardens were extremely stupid in Inquisition and I didn't quite understand their plan or why they did what they did. It was terribly written in my opinion, but exiling them for Bioware's poor writing is stupid. They are still the only ones able to unite a country and stop a Blight. Exterminating them would be even more stupid because you'd lose all knowledge of what to do and the next Blight would be a First Blight situation again. No one wants 200 years of death and destruction.

[Dalendria]

I exiled them in my 2nd playthrough and killed off Stroud.  Human Noble Male.  Hated the wardens due to the despicable Hero of Ferelden.  He defiled the sacred ashes and was a horrible city elf renegade.  He even killed Leliana.  So my noble knew the stories and did not trust Grey Wardens. 

 

Also, my noble was a fanatic who loved being considered Andraste's Herald, chosen.  When Stroud said otherwise, my Inquisitor knew he had to die.  My selfish, ruthless Inquisitor would not have any rivals to his power.  He and his inquisition would be the only heros and the only ones to save the world.  So it was easy to exile them.  Blackwall left me shortly after (great scene).

 

Of course, that proved to be a mistake when darkspawn wiped out my Inquisitor soldiers in one of those war table missions.  Yep, it was probably a bad idea to exile them.  I hope they carry this choice over into next game.  Can't wait to see the havoc I caused. 

 

All other playthroughs I will probably keep them.  My other characters respect wardens and understand the need for the blight and beyond.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

Yep that's why they're called the Grey Wardens

Exiling them is stupid. The Wardens were extremely stupid in Inquisition and I didn't quite understand their plan or why they did what they did. It was terribly written in my opinion, but exiling them for Bioware's poor writing is stupid. They are still the only ones able to unite a country and stop a Blight. Exterminating them would be even more stupid because you'd lose all knowledge of what to do and the next Blight would be a First Blight situation again. No one wants 200 years of death and destruction.

I wholeheartedly agree. The Warden Keep DLC showed the extreme of what the Wardens are capable of doing when fighting with the kingdom but I found that when they were exiled/wiped out, another blight came through and the Wardens were needed. Can you imagine if they never were let back in the borders (by Maric?)? Our Warden would not have been able to end the blight and the Order of other territories would have faced a Horde unchecked as they poured out over the year or so. They are needed; I want to see what they did so bad! I feel like I'm missing a part of the picture. But to exterminate them? That sounds too crazy to do to an organization that dedicated its purpose to protecting the world. I won't deny that some groups of Wardens made bad decisions but.. I will back them up, regardless of disapproval of companions.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Don't base the decision of one Warden on the whole Order. The other Wardens with Sophia also weren't happy with Sophia's decision, unlike these Wardens with Clarel who are fine with every decision she makes and doesn't question them.  Beside, trying to overthrow an evil King who rules with an iron fist is stupid? While it was wrong because Wardens are neutral, it's not stupid. 

 

No one is above stupidity, that's for sure, but in this case, it's seem almost EVERY Wardens in Orlais are stupid. Unless the requirement to join the Wardens now include stupidity, while also being a skilled fighter.

 

You see Wardens who are uneasy with the rituals during the attack on Adamant and turn on their fellows if you help them. It's safe to say many didn't like it at all, but fell in line because of the Calling, because of the martyrdom culture, and just because of human tendency to go along.

 

I do think it's a stretch that they would try to kill Alistair/Stroud/Loghain and trust Erimund, and it weakens the plot a bit, but it's not character assassination. For that they'd have to start attacking random villages to sacrifice them in their rituals or something.

[lyleoffmyspace]

I wholeheartedly agree. The Warden Keep DLC showed the extreme of what the Wardens are capable of doing when fighting with the kingdom but I found that when they were exiled/wiped out, another blight came through and the Wardens were needed. Can you imagine if they never were let back in the borders (by Maric?)? Our Warden would not have been able to end the blight and the Order of other territories would have faced a Horde unchecked as they poured out over the year or so. They are needed; I want to see what they did so bad! I feel like I'm missing a part of the picture. But to exterminate them? That sounds too crazy to do to an organization that dedicated its purpose to protecting the world. I won't deny that some groups of Wardens made bad decisions but.. I will back them up, regardless of disapproval of companions.

 

And really, in Thedas what group hasn't made a bad decisions? Everyone from the Little Folk to the Dalish elves to the Chantry to the Qunari have all done some bad things in the realm of morally grey.

 

In the end, the Grey Wardens do what they do to stop the Blight. They don't it for personal vengeance, they don't do it for their religion or their ideology, they don't do it for personal gain. They do it to the stop the Blight, which is the greatest evil we have seen so far in the setting so far in terms of sheer chaos, destruction and devastation. Therefore any dodgy decisions the Wardens do make, whilst they could be considered evil, are justified due to their end goal which is as pure as they come.

[MrMrPendragon]

How do you think the Orlesians are going to handle the knowledge that the Wardens were directly involved in the event as the conclave that led to Justinia's death? They can't really declare an Exalted March, since the Chantry is pretty much toothless w/out the Templars, but they could march their own forces against them, and after the siege and the blood magic sacrifices, the Wardens aren't going to be in the best shape to do anything about it. Considering this, don't you think exiling them out of reach is the better course of action. If you did the ball first, you've ended the Civil War, and have the authority. If not, nobody really has jurisdiction over the Wardens, which is part of the problem to begin with, so you have the authority by virtue of having defeated them. There are, as we know, no consequences one way or the other, short of a few War Table missions that, if mishandled can result in all of their deaths anyway. We're not facing a Blight, and we're not fortune tellers, so we can't see the future, in game or out, so there's no "right" answer, only what feels right to the Inquisitor of the moment.

 

I think since the Chantry is pretty much toothless like you said, the Inquisition can intervene if there happens to be an Exalted March. Plus, one of your friends becomes Divine anyway so I doubt some kind of Exalted March will happen.

 

 

What bothers me though is that they don't make any real effort to making the Joining ritual non-lethal or do any kind of research on the Calling. They just kinda accept it. I felt like that entire scenario with the Wardens could've been avoided if they had just understood how the Calling worked. I mean, all they really have to do is do some research with Grand Enchanter Fiona.  I even let Avernus continue his nasty experiments so he can find out something about the taint. 

 

Good on my Warden for trying to actually do something about the Calling.

[robertthebard]

I think since the Chantry is pretty much toothless like you said, the Inquisition can intervene if there happens to be an Exalted March. Plus, one of your friends becomes Divine anyway so I doubt some kind of Exalted March will happen.
 
 
What bothers me though is that they don't make any real effort to making the Joining ritual non-lethal or do any kind of research on the Calling. They just kinda accept it. I felt like that entire scenario with the Wardens could've been avoided if they had just understood how the Calling worked. I mean, all they really have to do is do some research with Grand Enchanter Fiona.  I even let Avernus continue his nasty experiments so he can find out something about the taint. 
 
Good on my Warden for trying to actually do something about the Calling.

At the time of this decision, none of my friends are about to come Divine, the issue hasn't been raised yet, and I'm not referring to the Chantry. As I said, they're toothless, but the Orlesian nobility isn't. No matter who's left in charge, they are Andrastian, and home of the Chantry. So it's your belief they'd just let it go? I don't see that happening, good thing nobody ever tells them, eh?

[MetalGear312]

Grey Wardens got a serious character assassination in DAI.

What, like Cerberus?

[DarkSpiral]

There's already been one thread I was enjoying locked due to excessive and irrelevant comparisons to other games by Bioware.  Lets judge DAI based on events from within DAI, hm?

[Gaylonn]

Given the evidence presented in DA:I the only reason I can think of not to exile the wardens is cause it seems to block Blackwall's personal quest from triggering.  Was so looking forward to dealing with that sob.

[Ashevajak]

Well, to fight the next Blight seems a pretty compelling reason. 

 

You know, this is by far my most popular post of all time.

I should try stating the obvious more often.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Why aren't they exile like you want with the Wardens? And earlier you want to kill all the corrupt Wardens, which I haven't heard about any Wardens summoning demons in Weisshaupt or something...so...

Where did you get the idea that Wardens work with Cory from? I can't find it anywhere in the game. The mages Wardens get mind control, the others get tricked by the Venatori and Fear Demon, but willingly working with Cory, a DARKSPAWN that is trying to destroy the world?

 

Their action is also...well, in the gray area, while it was certainly bad, it's for "the greater good." 

 

Becauuuuuuuuse the game doesn't give you that option?

 

I mean, jesus wept, dude.

 

And I get the idea that the Wardens are working with Cory from the scenes that explicitly show the Wardens working with Cory. Like, when they helped Cory set up Justinia for sacrifice. For example. Plus working for the Venatori, who are working for Cory. For another example.

[Camenae]

Now, this has no bearing on whether the Grey Wardens should be exiled or not, because stupid decisions are still stupid decisions and terrible consequences are still terrible consequences.  But of COURSE they made stupid decisions.  Doing any amount of research on tinnitus and one will see.  The constant Calling they were hearing must've driven them to absolute distraction.  I'm shocked they were still capable of any thought at all.

[robertthebard]

Becauuuuuuuuse the game doesn't give you that option?
 
I mean, jesus wept, dude.
 
And I get the idea that the Wardens are working with Cory from the scenes that explicitly show the Wardens working with Cory. Like, when they helped Cory set up Justinia for sacrifice. For example. Plus working for the Venatori, who are working for Cory. For another example.

He's never going to get it, mate. He's never going to understand that someone might take the view that killing the Divine is a bad thing. He's never going to understand that even if it was only because they were mind controlled, (were they really though, we know later ones are, but we have no idea about those particular ones, they could be there of their own free will), that having someone that's that susceptible to being taken over by the Big Bad^TM around to be taken over later might be a Bad Thing^TM because "Wardens are my heroes".

He's never going to understand that this isn't the first time that Wardens have resorted to Blood Magic and demons to deal with a problem, and that the last time that we know they did it, it didn't come out so well, reference Sofia Dryden, and that whole fiasco. I wonder, though, who was mind controlling them then? I'm sure that someone will find a way to say "But killing the Divine ended all Blights ever", or something equally nonsensical, simply to justify "But you can't exile them, because Wardens". That's why I let that dialog go. "By whatever means necessary" is supposed to be for ending a Blight, not overthrowing Kings, or trying to end the Calling. It's irrelevant that Clarel wasn't mind controlled, but simply duped, after all, "but Wardens".

We both know that other than the War Table, there are no adverse side effects to banishing the Wardens. We both also know that they can be recalled. We're not debating logic here, we're debating emotion, and people are way too invested in the Wardens as a whole due to the HoF. All they see, through the glasses of romanticism, is how they can't do any wrong, because maybe, sometime down the road, there might be a Blight. So what if they conspired to kill the Divine, the Chantry can elect a new one, but remember, Blight.