1570 réponses à ce sujet

[fizzypop]

Because everyone makes some shitty ass mistakes. I mean by that logic all templars should be destroyed because of what happened with them. The wardens had poor leadership that led them into darkness. I sincerely hope that is remedied and fixed. Besides humans when in large groups are down right stupid. By stander effect. So I think most probably knew on some level it wasn't right, but didn't know what to do or say. So they went along with it. I hope they learned their lesson and this proves that they need to figure out how to organize themselves so this stupid **** don't happen again. There is a decent chance too that their minds were being effected so it is possible they didn't realize what they were doing. Funny enough if you drive someone mad you might be able to make them do really bad **** if you want. That's true of ALL people. Plus they have knowledge of how to create wardens which you will need for the next blight. I mean really that is pretty important.

[Addai]

That might be a problem. If you exile them, during the talk with Leliana, the Inquisitor outright says that they intend to let Thedas know what kind of monsters the Wardens are. Plus, the news report outright says that there is rising anti-warden sentiment after the revelations that the Wardens tried to summon a demon army. That and Iron Bull's comment on the ben-hassrath killing any wardens that are left imply that you aren't exiling them to protect them, but to punish them.

Oh, well I never talk to Leliana, so that solves that problem. lol

[robertthebard]

They were exiled from Ferelden and we know how that turned out.

Yep, we do, don't we? The Blight was ended before it really ever got off the ground. If only the Warden hadn't had to waste so much time playing politics, the Blight would have ended months sooner. So, if we're going to go by the results of the 5th Blight, then exiling the Wardens is absolutely the right call.

[PogueMT]

Like others said, the Wardens are needed for dealing with any DS that pop up and dealing with Blights, if there'd been an option to tell 'em to scram until Corephipuss was dealt with then temporary exile would have been the sensible choice, but chucking them out for good is too extreme in the long run. Course that's coming from me playing DA:O and knowing why they're so essential, guess a Quizzy would have different information so exile might make sense to them, depends how you play your Quizzy.

[Herr Uhl]

That might be a problem. If you exile them, during the talk with Leliana, the Inquisitor outright says that they intend to let Thedas know what kind of monsters the Wardens are. Plus, the news report outright says that there is rising anti-warden sentiment after the revelations that the Wardens tried to summon a demon army. That and Iron Bull's comment on the ben-hassrath killing any wardens that are left imply that you aren't exiling them to protect them, but to punish them.

 

Huh, I simply exiled them because I didn't want my troops to get controlled from within with Cory's bad warden juju. Wish there was some kind of extra option to show your intentions.

[VentiSei]

I'll only ally with the wardens if I had saved Loghain in the fade. He's the only soldier I'd trust to run an army, hell, he can take over Cullen's duties if it were possible. If Hawke was saved, exile for the wardens, which is my canon decision. I always loved saying the top left option which makes your inquisitor angry about Loghain's death and that he sacrificed himself for their foolishness, following it up with the exile option. Warms my heart.

 

I'd rather have the wardens quit the battlefield than see them become a possible host for Corypheus.

[Aimi]

Take into account that the Wardens likely own territories in the various nations which the local Warden-Commander rules as a feudal lord, likely with little to no taxation. Before they were driven out of Fereldan, they had holdings there such as Warden's Peak. After they came back with no holdings, it's obvious the Wardens are equipped with whatever armor and weapons seem suitable. After the confiscated lands of Arl Howe were given after the events of Origins, the Wardens in Fereldan could probably afford the standard Warden armor that other established garrisons such as those in the  Free Marches and Orlesian Empire are equipped with. 
 
Seriously though, they likely have a lot of income from holdings. After Origins, Fereldan's Wardens not only have a fortress, but are the liege of one of the country's major trade ports. 
 
But then again, I think your estimate is too big. In DA2, the Free Marches Wardens only possibly consisted of anywhere between four to a dozen or so Wardens. The Warden-Commander could only amass a grand total of four Wardens in the events of Legacy.

The central problem with this claim is that Amaranthine is repeatedly and explicitly described as a highly unusual situation for Wardens. They supposedly stay right out of 'politics' (except in the Anderfels), which somehow translates to 'not owning things'. One of their main strongholds in Ferelden, with some of their most critical information and stores, is a random warehouse in Denerim's market district. Obviously, we can't take that too far, because 1. gameplay conventions and 2. the relative paucity of resources for the newly resurrected Order in Ferelden, but the whole point of the argument I'm making is that the games do not reflect a plausible reality.

Also, look at the few places we do see them holding and administering. Soldier's Peak is a completely pointless hidden fortress in the middle of mountains; it guards nothing, controls nothing, and almost certainly could not be the basis for any financially sustainable estate. The random Warden outpost in the Korcari Wilds where they inexplicably stored crucial documents is, well, in the middle of the Korcari Wilds. Adamant is a vast complex on the edge of civilization in the middle of a darkspawn-infested desert; what goes for Soldier's Peak and the Wilder outpost goes triple for Adamant. The Warden prison in the Vimmarks is frigging underground, staffed by Carta, random monsters, and darkspawn. None of these is a promising revenue generator. All of them, if they were ever garrisoned fully (most aren't, and in fact none of those places was garrisoned at all in the games) and properly maintained (lol) would almost certainly be massive revenue losers. They are yet another reason why the Wardens desperately need funds from somewhere that they don't appear to actually have.

I completely agree that the easiest way to cut this particular Gordian knot is to suggest that the Order does hold title or usufruct for various useful estates throughout Thedas, but it's simply not supported anywhere in the games. Instead, the Wardens are portrayed as living hand-to-mouth off of whatever they can borrow or bully through conscription or ephemeral royal favor, which is well and good for random hobos like Blackwall and completely inappropriate for an organization that employs thousands of people.

As far as the numbers game goes...well, that's why I gave it such a wide range. Supposedly, at (or near) the nadir of the Wardens' fortunes in 9:30, they have ~1750 Wardens in the Anderfels + Orlais + Ferelden. I don't think it's unreasonable to postulate another couple hundred for the entire rest of Thedas (Nevarra + Rivain + Marches + Antiva + Tevinter), giving us our lower-bound figure. You're right that we don't see them, but the evidence that they are not in existence is pretty slim. You brought up Janeka's use of a small team in Legacy; apart from the obvious point of "gameplay conventions!", operating with a small team is apparently what important people do in Thedas considering how the Inquisitor wanders around with no more than three people at a time. Besides, Corypheus' prison was Most Secret to the extent that Senior Wardens like Stroud didn't know more than rumors, so it makes sense that the team would be kept small for that. I don't see Legacy as offering a strong hint as to the numbers of Wardens outside the Anderfels and Orlais.

What I think is slightly more indicative is the extent to which Duncan and other characters in Origins harped on the fact that Warden numbers in Ferelden were dramatically diminished at the outbreak of the Fifth Blight, with 'only' several dozen at hand. That suggests to me that individual countries' Warden establishments tend to be rather larger than that, perhaps on the order of a couple hundred (probably not as many as Orlais and certainly not as many as the Anderfels). Of course, Duncan could also have been comparing the number to historical highs for Ferelden alone, and Ferelden might have had an unusually large number of Wardens before the Dryden rebellion, but I consider that explanation to be rather less likely.

So much for the lower bound end of the numbers; the upper bound was meant less as a guess for their strength in 9:30 or 9:41 Dragon and more as a historical estimate for times when the Wardens were doing rather better than they are in the current games' time. In earlier decades or centuries, with the Blight more recent or more pressing, or perhaps simply due to the vagaries of criminal justice in Thedas, the Wardens may have had rather more troops at hand than they currently do. Post-9:30 Dragon estimates may also be higher, due to the recruiting effect of the Fifth Blight, and to the mage-templar war, which as Last Flight demonstrates resulted in a large intake of Warden recruits fleeing the fighting as refugees.

Either way, though, we're dealing with a large group of professional, trained, well-armed men and women that garrison fortresses throughout Thedas, and who need to be paid somehow yet all the information on the Order suggests that the Order doesn't actually have the financial wherewithal to do it. This noninterventionist sticking point, the emphasis on how Wardens are supposed to be nonpolitical, merely acting as watchguards on the fringes of civilization, is well and good for making them seem like noble selfless heroes...but it doesn't do very much at all for the plausibility of what must be one of the more expensive organizations in Thedas.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Oh, well I never talk to Leliana, so that solves that problem. lol

That occurs during the talk with Leliana after the mission so no, it isn't optional.

[Masque]

I did exile them.

 

First, they were clearly susceptible to Corypheus' influence; allying with them and ignoring the atrocities they had committed were just unacceptable to me from a logical/lore point of view. Also, it's becoming more and more apparent that this business with the Old Gods/Blight/Archdemon/Darkspawn isn't as clear cut as we thought way back in DAO. For all we know, and Solas even says it, killing the Old Gods may make things even worse.

 

May I end up regretting that decision? It's possible.

[Addai]

That occurs during the talk with Leliana after the mission so no, it isn't optional.

I don't recall my PC saying any such thing and I just played the mission.

[BAC PARTY CITY]

what kind of sensible leader banishes the Grey Wardens?

 

You get more soldiers. And Grey Wardens are the only warriors who specialize in taking down Darkspawn and stopping Blights/arch-demons.

 

You bring them in under inquisition supervision to bluster forces and make sure they don't mess up again. I honestly see no reason not to recruit them. Half of them died through trickery. And your going to send a good portion of the rest to their deaths through the Darkspawn map missions. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

People who exiled the Wardens but allied with the mages/templars are hypocrites. Both sides did stupid things but if you are willing to forgive them for what they did but punish the wardens for what they did, I have to call hypocrisy.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

what kind of sensible leader banishes the Grey Wardens?

 

You get more soldiers. And Grey Wardens are the only warriors who specialize in taking down Darkspawn and stopping Blights/arch-demons.

 

You bring them in under inquisition supervision to bluster forces and make sure they don't mess up again. I honestly see no reason not to recruit them. Half of them died through trickery. And your going to send a good portion of the rest to their deaths through the Darkspawn map missions. 

 

I rejected the Grey Wardens for the same reason I avoided the mages. When the enemy is Cory, there is fear of him turning them against you. When the enemy was the breach and its demons, there is fear that the mages may be susceptible to possession. In both cases, assets turn to liabilities.

 

It does not help that I believe the Wardens are hooligans, but I may have still recruited them were it not for Cory's ability to turn them.

 

With it, however, I laughed and said "Well **** them, then."

[In Exile]

Yep, we do, don't we? The Blight was ended before it really ever got off the ground. If only the Warden hadn't had to waste so much time playing politics, the Blight would have ended months sooner. So, if we're going to go by the results of the 5th Blight, then exiling the Wardens is absolutely the right call.

In fact we see the actual proper GWs agree to a plan so idiotic and suicidal that they risked the entire nation. If it wasn't for Cailan being obsessed with the GWs and sending Alistair and the HOF off on a wild goose chase you'd have been in the vanguard and died with the rest of the GWs. The "true" Wardens doomed Ferelden. It was the person Duncan almost literally found on the side of the street that saved the day.

[xJLxKing]

I rejected the Grey Wardens for the same reason I avoided the mages. When the enemy is Cory, there is fear of him turning them against you. When the enemy was the breach and its demons, there is fear that the mages may be susceptible to possession. In both cases, assets turn to liabilities.

 

It does not help that I believe the Wardens are hooligans, but I may have still recruited them were it not for Cory's ability to turn them.

 

With it, however, I laughed and said "Well **** them, then."

So you sided with the mages who were in fact helping Cory manipulate the Grey Warden, OK

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

That and Iron Bull's comment on the ben-hassrath killing any wardens that are left imply that you aren't exiling them to protect them, but to punish them.

 

He really says that?

 

And here I thought that a purging of Grey Wardens throughout Orlais and Ferelden would only remain headcanon.

 

Awesome.

[Herr Uhl]

People who exiled the Wardens but allied with the mages/templars are hypocrites. Both sides did stupid things but if you are willing to forgive them for what they did but punish the wardens for what they did, I have to call hypocrisy.

 

I disbanded the templars and took them in as soldiers. Cory had no ability to screw around with their heads.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

So you sided with the mages who were in fact helping Cory manipulate the Grey Warden, OK

 

Nope. I either leash the mages or recruit the Templars instead.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

He really says that?

 

And here I thought that a purging of Grey Wardens throughout Orlais and Ferelden would only remain headcanon.

 

Awesome.

 

What kind of moron Warden would stick around in Orlais when exiled, given what Cory did/can do to them? If they are still there, you have to assume the worst.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

What kind of moron Warden would stick around in Orlais when exiled, given what Cory did/can do to them? If they are still there, you have to assume the worst.

 

I wonder, did all Ferelden/Orleasian wardens go to Adamant? If not, does that mean that there are still remnants left behind at Vigil's keep? Because if that is the case I can see them not being willing to hand over the keep when the inquisition demands them to turn it over, since a wartable mission mentions that the inquisition has started to seize all Grey Warden assets if they are exiled.

 

If so, I'd like to headcanon that a small grey warden force led by Oghren stayed holed up in Vigil's keep and refuses to surrender to the inquisition. Leading to a long siege where they eventually are starved out. Ending with all the wardens public execution in Amaranthine and the keep seized for the inquisition.

[KaiserShep]

What kind of moron Warden would stick around in Orlais when exiled, given what Cory did/can do to them? If they are still there, you have to assume the worst.

The fake Calling aside, we don't know the full extent of their vulnerability to Corypheus until the temple of Mythal.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I wonder what all the people who exiled the Wardens would say if another Blight started. Exiling them is to me incredibly short-sighted. I also wonder how many of the people who exiled the Wardens killed the Architect. You've ensured the blights will continue and hurt the only organization that could stop them. Derp.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The fake Calling aside, we don't know the full extent of their vulnerability to Corypheus until the temple of Mythal.

Even then, the only time the corruption is used against the Wardens is in Leliana's version of the mission where the Wardens fight the Venatori Duchess who uses blood magic to turn the Wardens against each other. Even then, Corypheus' body possession is said to have no limit on its range. Imagine you exiled the Wardens and Corypheus decided to possess the Wardens hundreds of miles away. What would you do then?

[Milan92]

I think he does have a limit.

[xJLxKing]

Just wanted to post this

 

“You will guard them and they will hate you for it. Whenever there is not a Blight actively crawling over the surface, humanity will do its best to forget how much they need you. And that's good. We need to stand apart from them, even if they have to push us away to make us do it. That is the only way we can ever make the hard decisions.” ―Kristoff, former Commander of the Grey of Orlais^[2]