1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

I wonder what all the people who exiled the Wardens would say if another Blight started. Exiling them is to me incredibly short-sighted. I also wonder how many of the people who exiled the Wardens killed the Architect. You've ensured the blights will continue and hurt the only organization that could stop them. Derp.

You don't kill them, you send them away. Away from where there's a giant hole in the sky and a magister darkspawn who can control their minds. I'm not seeing the down side here.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You don't kill them, you send them away. Away from where there's a giant hole in the sky and a magister darkspawn who can control their minds. I'm not seeing the down side here.

If they aren't allowed back after the problem is solved, there might be a downside a few centuries down the road. Is it implied one way or the other how permanent the exile is?

[Stelae]

There are darkspawn wandering about in the Western approach, in broad daylight, really, really close to where an archdemon lies sleeping.  And in the Hinterlands, near major population centres.  And on the Storm Coast, where they could have access to the Free Marches via the Waking Sea. 

 

Why would you exile the very people who can sense and eradicate darkspawn when it's highly probable darkspawn are going to be your Next Big Problem?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Just wanted to post this

 

“You will guard them and they will hate you for it. Whenever there is not a Blight actively crawling over the surface, humanity will do its best to forget how much they need you. And that's good. We need to stand apart from them, even if they have to push us away to make us do it. That is the only way we can ever make the hard decisions.” ―Kristoff, former Commander of the Grey of Orlais^[2]

Inquisition pretty much says that there is a schism among the Wardens between those who want to continue the Warden ways of doing whatever it takes to end the blight and those who want the Wardens to become more open and good. Will be interesting if we get to decide how the Wardens act in the next games.

[thesuperdarkone2]

You don't kill them, you send them away. Away from where there's a giant hole in the sky and a magister darkspawn who can control their minds. I'm not seeing the down side here.

You outright reveal that the Wardens tried to help corypheus summon demons if you exile them. They become hated as a result. Plus, if exiled, they won't be able to garrison troops in the countries they were exiled from. What's going to happen to Amaranthine if the Wardens are exiled given that they run that place now? Civil War? Plus, you essentially made it so the Warden can never return to Ferelden if you exile them. Imagine if exiling the Wardens made you enemies with the Hero of Ferelden.

[xJLxKing]

Inquisition pretty much says that there is a schism among the Wardens between those who want to continue the Warden ways of doing whatever it takes to end the blight and those who want the Wardens to become more open and good. Will be interesting if we get to decide how the Wardens act in the next games.

It's quite possible. It is a huge Order that spams throughout every nation and continent. With that said, i don't think there is an actual split. I don't think each Warden Commander of every Nation talks to one another about this. I think it was just this particular group.

[Cypher0020]

This is what burns me about the entire mess

 

Zero talking between anyone, unless, maaaaybe Weisshaupt  

 

 

There needs to be communication between the wardens

[robertthebard]

You outright reveal that the Wardens tried to help corypheus summon demons if you exile them. They become hated as a result. Plus, if exiled, they won't be able to garrison troops in the countries they were exiled from. What's going to happen to Amaranthine if the Wardens are exiled given that they run that place now? Civil War? Plus, you essentially made it so the Warden can never return to Ferelden if you exile them. Imagine if exiling the Wardens made you enemies with the Hero of Ferelden.

The people need to know why they're being exiled. The people already don't have as high an opinion of the Wardens as the BSN does. They understand what the order is about. The people on the BSN are the ones that have the biggest problem figuring it out, with most seeming to believe that they're Paladins or something. Two of the Origin stories are criminals. In one of the Origin stories, the parents of the recruit are blackmailed into allowing it, by Duncan. We could make it three of the Origin stories, depending on how one went about the mage origin. Drinking some darkspawn blood doesn't suddenly turn them into Paladins.

The first Blight lasted over 100 years. Evidently, the only thing you really need Wardens for is killing the Archdemon. Since all of the soldiers we see on the field in Ostagar aren't Wardens, regular people can kill them too. Remember the Ash Warrior in the Ostagar camp? Isn't it funny that all of their dogs don't wind up dead? Even funnier, a simple herb can cure the taint in Mabari. We do have that quest to get the flower for the dog handler to support this, and he states that the dog will die w/out it. So it's not like there's nothing anyone can do w/out Wardens. If that were truly the case, there would be no world for the game to take place in, since it would have ended during the First Blight.

According to Leliana, in Haven, when she sends you to talk to Blackwall, all the Wardens in Ferelden had disappeared. Since that would include Amaranthine, the damage is already done, yes? Did your HoF go through the Eluvian with Morrigan? How much were you caring about the state of Amaranthine then? Not much, so long as you could get your freak on with Morrigan, eh? As to being enemies with the HoF, so what? My Inquisitors aren't an Archdemon, so the HoF isn't especially suited to killing them. Just another person to deal with, and we have a whole army to send against them if need be, and I wouldn't hesitate.

For all that, there still isn't any right or wrong answer. The Inquisitor of the moment has a choice to make, and romanticism aside, there isn't a wrong answer. If the Inquisitor of the moment feels the risk is too great, either way, they can keep them or exile them. I get that some people are misinformed about what Wardens actually are, but really, for fighting skills, we can train our own soldiers, and not have to worry about Cory finding another way to manipulate them, something that, historically speaking, seems pretty easy to do. It's not like Adamant set a precedent for "we're losing, let's summon demons". It happened at Warden's Keep, and is, interestingly enough, part of what led to their exile, that and trying to assassinate a King. That's your upstanding heroes of the hour, right there.

[Monica21]

You don't kill them, you send them away. Away from where there's a giant hole in the sky and a magister darkspawn who can control their minds. I'm not seeing the down side here.

 

And this is exactly what the Templars and Mages have already been through, shown themselves to be corruptible, and yet you save them from that influence and then willingly take them into your ranks. The Wardens are no different. You're past the point where you need them to help you close the Breach, but since you don't know if Cory's dragon is an Archdemon, why wouldn't you keep them around unless you have a very short memory re: the history of Blights?

[MoonDrummer]

You outright reveal that the Wardens tried to help corypheus summon demons if you exile them. They become hated as a result. Plus, if exiled, they won't be able to garrison troops in the countries they were exiled from. What's going to happen to Amaranthine if the Wardens are exiled given that they run that place now? Civil War? Plus, you essentially made it so the Warden can never return to Ferelden if you exile them. Imagine if exiling the Wardens made you enemies with the Hero of Ferelden.

They don't get exiled from Ferelden, do they? I have a hard imagining king Alistair agreeing to that.

[Addai]

And this is exactly what the Templars and Mages have already been through, shown themselves to be corruptible, and yet you save them from that influence and then willingly take them into your ranks. The Wardens are no different. You're past the point where you need them to help you close the Breach, but since you don't know if Cory's dragon is an Archdemon, why wouldn't you keep them around unless you have a very short memory re: the history of Blights?

The templars who join your ranks were corrupted without their knowledge by a physical substance, not just by being near Corypheus. The rebel mages other than Fiona aren't culpable for going along with Alexius.

Again, you're not eliminating them. I see it as actually giving them a chance to survive.
 

You outright reveal that the Wardens tried to help corypheus summon demons if you exile them. They become hated as a result. Plus, if exiled, they won't be able to garrison troops in the countries they were exiled from. What's going to happen to Amaranthine if the Wardens are exiled given that they run that place now? Civil War? Plus, you essentially made it so the Warden can never return to Ferelden if you exile them. Imagine if exiling the Wardens made you enemies with the Hero of Ferelden.

And that knowledge will surely come out anyway, with the same result.

I think it was dumb for Ferelden to give the Wardens control of an arling, so Amaranthine will be better off. The Grey Wardens have a place, but it's not running duchies.

About the HoF, I really don't care. Not all my HoF's are pro-Warden anyway. My Cousland became queen in part to spite the Order for forcing her to join in the midst of her family's ruin.

[Uccio]

Why would I exile them? The only truly badass organization in Thedas. Weird question there.

[KaiserShep]

Imagine if exiling the Wardens made you enemies with the Hero of Ferelden.

That'd be pretty funny, but I'd be a little annoyed because I never set my Warden up as any kind of loyalist to the order. She did what had to be done, but would probably have ordered the whole lot of those fools at Adamant executed.

[Herr Uhl]

And this is exactly what the Templars and Mages have already been through, shown themselves to be corruptible, and yet you save them from that influence and then willingly take them into your ranks. The Wardens are no different. You're past the point where you need them to help you close the Breach, but since you don't know if Cory's dragon is an Archdemon, why wouldn't you keep them around unless you have a very short memory re: the history of Blights?

 
I wasn't aware that you cured the taint from all of the wardens. Odd that.
 

And that knowledge will surely come out anyway, with the same result.

Considering that there was a warden throwing herself at you for public penance, I expect it to become known after not too long.

[robertthebard]

And this is exactly what the Templars and Mages have already been through, shown themselves to be corruptible, and yet you save them from that influence and then willingly take them into your ranks. The Wardens are no different. You're past the point where you need them to help you close the Breach, but since you don't know if Cory's dragon is an Archdemon, why wouldn't you keep them around unless you have a very short memory re: the history of Blights?

So tell me, what exactly is it we have to do so that we, like you, can refuse to recruit either faction? Oh, that's right, we can't, but in order to support a spurious claim, you need yet another spurious claim? There are, I'm sure, some people here who would gladly refuse to recruit either faction, if given the choice. We're not. We have to pick one or the other to end Chapt 1. I find it odd that the arguments to support keeping the Wardens have fallen to this straw man of "Well, you recruited either the mages or the Templars", despite the fact that the game doesn't really give us a choice in the matter. Before one can condemn another for making a choice, a chance to not make that choice must exist. In this situation, it doesn't.

[Eyes_Only]

History is doomed to repeat itself... so when it came time for my inquisitor to make the choice, she decided to let them stay. Hopefully breaking the cycle that seems to have plagued the Grey Wardens. The history of the Wardens is checkered with banishments. And each time it was regretted that they were gone. What if the wardens had not been banished before the 5th blight? I bet their numbers would have been greater and not all would have died (save two) at Ostagar. The wardens of Orlais were the ones Alistair and the HoF would have tried to contact.

 

My inquisitor saw their value. Just as she had in the mages. A miss directed order that simply needed to be saved and put back on the right path. And her talk with Morrigan afterwards where she learned Morrigan's lover was in fact THE HoF, proud husband to her and father to her child who was now in search of ending the Calling... well my inquisitor was happy with her decision. Sadly her decision to leave Alistair behind in the fade might not have been the best idea. He would have been the closest thing to a leader for the wardens now.

[KaiserShep]

And this is exactly what the Templars and Mages have already been through, shown themselves to be corruptible, and yet you save them from that influence and then willingly take them into your ranks. The Wardens are no different. You're past the point where you need them to help you close the Breach, but since you don't know if Cory's dragon is an Archdemon, why wouldn't you keep them around unless you have a very short memory re: the history of Blights?

 

The mages and Templars are not really comparable to the Wardens, because aside from the absolute necessity of obtaining either faction from the perspective of the Inquisitor, you just do not have the option of executing the whole lot of them should you decide to conscript them, which obviously would go against the whole idea of conscription in the first place. Unfortunately, the idea of how much the Wardens are needed has a lot of basis in the player's meta-knowledge, but not for the current protagonist. In any case, the Wardens themselves are not vital to the success of the mission of taking down Corypheus, so taking or leaving them doesn't really affect the objective at hand in any meaningful way; only defeating them did.

[Monica21]

 
I wasn't aware that you cured the taint from all of the wardens. Odd that.

 

Considering you missed the point, I'm sure it does seem odd.

 

So tell me, what exactly is it we have to do so that we, like you, can refuse to recruit either faction? Oh, that's right, we can't, but in order to support a spurious claim, you need yet another spurious claim? There are, I'm sure, some people here who would gladly refuse to recruit either faction, if given the choice. We're not. We have to pick one or the other to end Chapt 1. I find it odd that the arguments to support keeping the Wardens have fallen to this straw man of "Well, you recruited either the mages or the Templars", despite the fact that the game doesn't really give us a choice in the matter. Before one can condemn another for making a choice, a chance to not make that choice must exist. In this situation, it doesn't.

 

And I think you're making a completely different and unnecessary argument out of an argument. Both the Templars and Mages are proven to be susceptible to Cory's influence. Yes, game mechanics dictate that you have to take one or the other, but only after you've removed the influence. The same is true for the Wardens, and game mechanics give you the option to kick them out of southern Thedas after you've again, removed the influence. So why again would you kick them out when you 1. still don't know if Cory's dragon is an Archdemon, and 2. still need forces?

[In Exile]

Considering you missed the point, I'm sure it does seem odd.

 

 

And I think you're making a completely different and unnecessary argument out of an argument. Both the Templars and Mages are proven to be susceptible to Cory's influence. Yes, game mechanics dictate that you have to take one or the other, but only after you've removed the influence. The same is true for the Wardens, and game mechanics give you the option to kick them out of southern Thedas after you've again, removed the influence. So why again would you kick them out when you 1. still don't know if Cory's dragon is an Archdemon, and 2. still need forces?

 

 But the way they're being influenced is very different. Templars can be corrupted through, well, persuasive lies and a drug addiction. That's true of anyone. Similarly, the mages can influenced by persuasive lies (and maybe mind control rituals, like the demon binding).

 

The Wardens, though, seem to be controlled by proximity to Corypheus himself. That's a very different kind of beast. 

 

Not to mention that if we actually knew what the GWs really did to kill ADs, we'd know the order is valueless; as DA:O proves, it's just having one person who did the Joining that matters. 

[xJLxKing]

No they cannot be controlled by Cory

[In Exile]

No they cannot be controlled by Cory

 

We literally see exactly that happen in DA2. He does it to Anders, he absolutely does it to Janeka, and then he does it to Janeka/Larius at the end. 

[Monica21]

 But the way they're being influenced is very different. Templars can be corrupted through, well, persuasive lies and a drug addiction. That's true of anyone. Similarly, the mages can influenced by persuasive lies (and maybe mind control rituals, like the demon binding).

 

The Wardens, though, seem to be controlled by proximity to Corypheus himself. That's a very different kind of beast. 

 

Not to mention that if we actually knew what the GWs really did to kill ADs, we'd know the order is valueless; as DA:O proves, it's just having one person who did the Joining that matters. 

 

Do you mean because they're hearing the Calling?

 

And well, yeah, you just need the one, unless you decide to take the Archdemon for a ride and fall off his back, like Riordan. I mean, standing at a safe distance and shouting at armies to weaken the AD until you can take the killing blow seems a bit useless. The "you only need one Warden" is extrapolating a lot from what we know of Origins. Origins is a very odd case of exactly three Wardens ending the Blight. Unheard of.

[xJLxKing]

People seem to be confusing what the Fear Demon did and What Cory did

[KaiserShep]

And I think you're making a completely different and unnecessary argument out of an argument. Both the Templars and Mages are proven to be susceptible to Cory's influence. Yes, game mechanics dictate that you have to take one or the other, but only after you've removed the influence. The same is true for the Wardens, and game mechanics give you the option to kick them out of southern Thedas after you've again, removed the influence. So why again would you kick them out when you 1. still don't know if Cory's dragon is an Archdemon, and 2. still need forces?

 

The mages were not mind controlled. Fiona agreed to Alexius' terms of her own free will, albeit manipulated by fear of the Templars coming to wipe them all out. The Templars had to actually consume red lyrium to become Corypheus' puppets, and if you went to Therinfall Redoubt, anyone you managed to get out alive didn't have that problem. The Wardens, however, can be manipulated by the Blight itself. While we don't get the full extent of Corypheus' influence over it until the Temple of Mythal, it's clear that there's an inexplicable tie between the Wardens and the darkspawn that make them particularly more vulnerable to influence.

[KaiserShep]

People seem to be confusing what the Fear Demon did and What Cory did

 

Granted, this example doesn't serve well for the Inquisitor, since s/he was not around to witness it, but Corypheus himself can use the Blight to control people. The Carta dwarves that were sent to hunt down Hawke were under Corypheus' hold through the darkspawn blood they consumed, as was Janeka who got them to do this in the first place.