1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

The mages were not mind controlled. Fiona agreed to Alexius' terms of her own free will, albeit manipulated by fear of the Templars coming to wipe them all out. The Templars had to actually consume red lyrium to become Corypheus' puppets, and if you went to Therinfall Redoubt, anyone you managed to get out alive didn't have that problem. The Wardens, however, can be manipulated by the Blight itself. While we don't get the full extent of Corypheus' influence over it until the Temple of Mythal, it's clear that there's an inexplicable tie between the Wardens and the darkspawn that make them particularly more vulnerable to influence.

 

Except why is the Inquisitor exiling them? It's not to protect them, as much as you might like to headcanon that it is. It's to punish them.

[In Exile]

Do you mean because they're hearing the Calling?

 

And well, yeah, you just need the one, unless you decide to take the Archdemon for a ride and fall off his back, like Riordan. I mean, standing at a safe distance and shouting at armies to weaken the AD until you can take the killing blow seems a bit useless. The "you only need one Warden" is extrapolating a lot from what we know of Origins. Origins is a very odd case of exactly three Wardens ending the Blight. Unheard of.

 

Riordan is an idiot, and kind of case-in-point about why the order is useless. The point is that the Grey Warden's are irrelevant, in the same way that the Inquisition is irrelevant (only the Inquisitor, who can close rifts, matters). 

 

As to Corypheus, no, I mean he seems to actually be able to mind control people through the blight. Remember he controls the minds of the tainted carta dwarves in DA2. He controls Janeka's mind, making her think freeing Corypheus will help (or it's the usual kind of Warden stupidity, but this is even a stronger argument in favour of disbanding their order). 

 

Edit:

Though I should add I've never exiled the GWs. Thinking their order is worthless OOC is different from what knowledge the Inquisition has in-game, and at that point the GWs at worst are cannon fodder you can send into the meat grinder over Inquisition forces. 

[xJLxKing]

Granted, this example doesn't serve well for the Inquisitor, since s/he was not around to witness it, but Corypheus himself can use the Blight to control people. The Carta dwarves that were sent to hunt down Hawke were under Corypheus' hold through the darkspawn blood they consumed, as was Janeka who got them to do this in the first place.

how do we not know it wasn't through blood magic like in Inquisition?

[In Exile]

how do we not know it wasn't through blood magic like in Inquisition?

 

He was asleep. He couldn't cast blood magic. It was the taint. It's why Anders goes mad. 

[Monica21]

Riordan is an idiot, and kind of case-in-point about why the order is useless. The point is that the Grey Warden's are irrelevant, in the same way that the Inquisition is irrelevant (only the Inquisitor, who can close rifts, matters). 

 

As to Corypheus, no, I mean he seems to actually be able to mind control people through the blight. Remember he controls the minds of the tainted carta dwarves in DA2. He controls Janeka's mind, making her think freeing Corypheus will help (or it's the usual kind of Warden stupidity, but this is even a stronger argument in favour of disbanding their order). 

 

Edit:

Though I should add I've never exiled the GWs. Thinking their order is worthless OOC is different from what knowledge the Inquisition has in-game, and at that point the GWs at worst are cannon fodder you can send into the meat grinder over Inquisition forces. 

 

The Wardens are irrelevant in this game, but not as a group. I think that's what you're saying, and I agree.

 

And I'll just metagame here, because I don't exile the Wardens. I trust the First Warden about as far as I can throw him, and the last place I want a group of people who know where the last two Old Gods are buried is in isolation in the Anderfels. Purely as a player, I think it's dangerous.

[songsmith2003]

It makes senses to exile them from a RP POV. Remember no one except wardens knows that only a warden can slay an archdemon, just like no one should know what the joining entails or that it might very well kill a candidate. In the game, the wardens might still be susceptible to Cory. There's no way the inquisitor can be certain.

 

Exile does not equal death. The Orlesian wardens wanted to come to Ferelden and help, but Loghain wouldn't allow them in because he hated Orlais. When another blight happens (and it will if lore is to be believed) there's no reason why the exile couldn't be rescinded and them allowed back. The inquisition has no way of knowing if Cory still has hold on the wardens or if he's wormed his way in them somehow. Safer to have them out of the way. Besides, they should go hide at Wardenhome (because I can't spell it). It's safer. Everyone will want to kill them if what they did to the Divine ever gets leaked.

[KaiserShep]

It would've been pretty something if Corypheus was caught off-guard out in the field, and was slain, and one of the Wardens lingering in Skyhold's courtyard suddenly burst open into another Corypheus. Mood killer for sure.

[Monica21]

It makes senses to exile them from a RP POV. Remember no one except wardens knows that only a warden can slay an archdemon, just like no one should know what the joining entails or that it might very well kill a candidate. In the game, the wardens might still be susceptible to Cory. There's no way the inquisitor can be certain.

 

Well, except that Anora shouts, "I heard the process can be fatal" about the Joining to the entire assembled nobility at the Landsmeet, so clearly something is known about the Joining. She may not know the details, but it's probably something fairly widely known that the process of becoming a Warden is dangerous.

[KaiserShep]

That part of the Landsmeet always struck me as a little sloppy, as a device to guide you toward getting that secret companion.

[In Exile]

The Wardens are irrelevant in this game, but not as a group. I think that's what you're saying, and I agree.

 

And I'll just metagame here, because I don't exile the Wardens. I trust the First Warden about as far as I can throw him, and the last place I want a group of people who know where the last two Old Gods are buried is in isolation in the Anderfels. Purely as a player, I think it's dangerous.

 

In terms of this game, I think turning down incredibly capable help is stupid. The Inquisition - even bolstered as it is to assault adamant - is still a small force, and we don't know what sort of monstrous abominations Corypheus might use. People make a big deal out of whether the red lyrium dragon is an AD, but I think that's confusing the point. Corypheus might be able to control darkspawn. So far he hasn't used them because he wants to pretend he's still a Magister, but that might not last. If it doesn't last, then suddenly having (1) a force capable of fighting them without risking what amounts to magical dysentery and (2) having a way of making more GWs is suddenly really valuable. 

 

Meta-gaming, I think the Warden order is stupid. Their obsession with secrecy is self-defeating. Even if you accept that Thedas can't know the truth (e.g. BM ritual with a 30-60% fatality rate, possible soul obliteration to kill the AD), the GWs don't even mention why they need to be around. Propaganda that only a GW can kill the AD and end a blight is the most useful tool they have, and they don't use it. And then they go out and do everything possible to get themselves killed (e.g. fight in a Vanguard) which is silly since their lives are more valuable than a hundred or thousand non-Warden lives. 

[Teophne]

Since the Inquisitor can't read the future I believe he has no way of knowing whether an Archdemon is about to rise. Just because of that I'd keep the Wardens close since they're the only ones able to deal with the Archdemons.

 

While playing the game I'm making mental notes of the parts in where I will decide differently for the next playthrough. Exiling the Wardens was the first and only occasion so far where I decided I wouldn't choose differently ever. (I chose not to exile them)

That's how much I live them.

 

Edit:

@songsmith2003: Good point about the Archdemon killing. Can't remember if it's so but if it is then it kind of invalidates my point.

[songsmith2003]

Since the Inquisitor can't read the future I believe he has no way of knowing whether an Archdemon is about to rise. Just because of that I'd keep the Wardens close since they're the only ones able to deal with the Archdemons.

 

While playing the game I'm making mental notes of the parts in where I will decide differently for the next playthrough. Exiling the Wardens was the first and only occasion so far where I decided I wouldn't choose differently ever. (I chose not to exile them)

That's how much I live them.

 

Edit:

@songsmith2003: Good point about the Archdemon killing. Can't remember if it's so but if it is then it kind of invalidates my point.

 

The senior warden who shows up just before the final battle in DA:O tells Alastair and your warden the secret which leads into the entire Old God Baby decision. Everyone knows the wardens kill the archdemon, but why only a GW can do it isn't well known from what I recall. Blackwall seems to think you just hit it with enough swords. I didn't remember that about the Landsmeet. I might be confusing the secrecy of the darkspawn blood/blood magic with no knowledge whatsoever.

 

I kept them around the first time because of archdemon fears, but not the second time. By then someone had postulated that the dragon was not an actual archdemon. Besides, the wardens can always hightail it back if another blight happens.

[xJLxKing]

Blackwell isn't a grey warden
We know exactly why a GW is needed. When a GW kills a Archdemon, the soul of the Old God will be drawn to the warden who killed it. The two opposing soul destroy each other

[Pierce Miller]

More bodies to throw at Corypheus that's why.

[Addai]

And I think you're making a completely different and unnecessary argument out of an argument. Both the Templars and Mages are proven to be susceptible to Cory's influence.

The difference is in degree. Let's recall that Corypheus escaped his prison in the first place because he was controlling the minds of nearby Wardens, and he can jump to their bodies if he's killed. They are susceptible to him in a way that non-blighted beings are not.

[Monica21]

The difference is in degree. Let's recall that Corypheus escaped his prison in the first place because he was controlling the minds of nearby Wardens, and he can jump to their bodies if he's killed. They are susceptible to him in a way that non-blighted beings are not.

He didn't just jump into any Warden's body though. He jumped into Larius. Larius was nearing the end of his true Calling, not the fake one Cory was mimicking. I don't think it's confirmed that Cory can body-hop through any Warden. I think the degree to which they are tainted has a great deal to do with it.

[dsl08002]

In my case i didnt want to exile them because i would do the same against my warden if he returned that he would be hunted.

[robertthebard]

Considering you missed the point, I'm sure it does seem odd.
 
 
And I think you're making a completely different and unnecessary argument out of an argument. Both the Templars and Mages are proven to be susceptible to Cory's influence. Yes, game mechanics dictate that you have to take one or the other, but only after you've removed the influence. The same is true for the Wardens, and game mechanics give you the option to kick them out of southern Thedas after you've again, removed the influence. So why again would you kick them out when you 1. still don't know if Cory's dragon is an Archdemon, and 2. still need forces?

No, I'm not. I'm stating that saying we have to keep the Wardens because we kept either the mages or the Templars is an invalid argument. As you say in this very post, we have no choice in the matter. If I could have chosen to not pick either, I might have. I cannot make the choice, and therefore, claiming that keeping one or the other dictates that we must also keep the Wardens is invalid.

[robertthebard]

He didn't just jump into any Warden's body though. He jumped into Larius. Larius was nearing the end of his true Calling, not the fake one Cory was mimicking. I don't think it's confirmed that Cory can body-hop through any Warden. I think the degree to which they are tainted has a great deal to do with it.

So how close to the calling was that young Warden he jumped into on the bridge to the Well of Sorrows? What if you sided with Janeka in Legacy? Was she also a ghoul, but just hiding it better?

[cljqnsnyc]

How soon they forget....

 

 

 

Duncan saved my mage Warden from the idiots who wanted to lock him up. He saved Alistair from a life of misery. Then, he sacrificed himself trying to help stop the blight. He was the best of what the wardens are. 

 

For his sake, I would never exile the Wardens. There would be no Hero Of Ferelden without a warden. You would never have met all your friends without a warden. Thedas would have been destroyed without the Wardens. So, they aren't perfect. Exile them?

 

 

 

How soon they forget!

[robertthebard]

How soon they forget....
 
 
 
Duncan saved my mage Warden from the idiots who wanted to lock him up. He saved Alistair from a life of misery. Then, he sacrificed himself trying to help stop the blight. He was the best of what the wardens are. 
 
For his sake, I would never exile the Wardens. There would be no Hero Of Ferelden without a warden. You would never have met all your friends without a warden. Thedas would have been destroyed without the Wardens. So, they aren't perfect. Exile them?
 
 
 
How soon they forget!

Yep, how soon we forget our father bleeding out on the floor with Duncan saying "I can save your child, but only if you agree that they become a Warden". How quickly they forget, indeed.

[Herr Uhl]

Considering you missed the point, I'm sure it does seem odd.

 

The point is that he can control beings with the taint to some degree. If we were to assume that every templar and mage is addicted to lyrium and Cory was the only supply available, then your point would be valid.

 

This isn't about some kind of redemption. I want to have troops that I can trust won't turn on me inside my own fortress. The templars that I brought in actively fought on my side because they weren't hooked on red lyrium yet.

[Monica21]

No, I'm not. I'm stating that saying we have to keep the Wardens because we kept either the mages or the Templars is an invalid argument. As you say in this very post, we have no choice in the matter. If I could have chosen to not pick either, I might have. I cannot make the choice, and therefore, claiming that keeping one or the other dictates that we must also keep the Wardens is invalid.

 

Uh, no. I never said anyone had to keep the Wardens. I'm saying that they were subjected to Cory's influence just like the Mages and Templars.

 

So how close to the calling was that young Warden he jumped into on the bridge to the Well of Sorrows? What if you sided with Janeka in Legacy? Was she also a ghoul, but just hiding it better?

 

Well, I don't know what happened there. I actually thought he was shifting into his Larius-shape before shifting into Cory. And according to game canon, isn't Larius the Warden he jumps to? Bianca mentions him in Varric's personal quest, but I don't remember if that was a Keep decision or not.

 

Yep, how soon we forget our father bleeding out on the floor with Duncan saying "I can save your child, but only if you agree that they become a Warden". How quickly they forget, indeed.

 

Ah, I see. Well, then. Not every Cousland Warden is bitter about becoming a Warden and doesn't carry that bitterness across three games.

[MoonDrummer]

Exiling the wardens would ****** off Ferelden and Orzammar.