1570 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Blackwall's speech. After I heard it, I could not send them away (though that had been my preferred course-of-action up to that point).

 

 

Oh, and Solas. I strive to be his rival (though this is one of the few things we agree on).

[Qoojo]

Well, to fight the next Blight seems a pretty compelling reason. 

 

I don't understand how anyone could trust them to fight the next blight.  They're basically just another cult at this point.

[lyin321]

 Do our Inquisitor (or Leliana I guess?) know WHY 'only' they (I am not sure Morrigan doesn't have some spell/ritual where you don't need warden to kill Archdemon anyway) can kill Archdemon thus ending the blight?

 Because at that point there is good chance my inquisitor will go the way of Loghain and think that he/she can overpower the Archdemon/blight (especially since unlike Loghain the protogonist will have few dragon kills behind their name and be surrounded by an almost equally powerful people)...

[Bizantura]

Every group eventually structures vertically.   The powerhungry top rules.  It is mostly the Joes and Joannas that pay the price by not knowing what and who's agenda they are fullfilling.

 

There should only be wardens en masse if there is a blight and disbanded after.  Keeping them in the inquisition disbanded them by thinning the ranks considerably.

[Big I]

There should only be wardens en masse if there is a blight and disbanded after.  Keeping them in the inquisition disbanded them by thinning the ranks considerably.

 

The main value of the Wardens is their institutional knowledge. They know the darkspawn better than anyone. If they're disbanded between Blights you lose all that.

[Captmorgan72]

I exiled them for their own safety. If I didn't think Corypheus would find a way to possess them, I wouldn't have sent them away. The Grey Wardens are heroes. They're willing to live cursed lives and sacrifice themselves in order to combat the Blight. They don't do it for glory, for money, or even for power. They do it because it's the right thing to do, and I respect that.

 

Granted, the whole business with the demon army was just foolish. I find it really hard to believe that the Wardens would be so stupid as to voluntarily infuse their own with demons... Even so, I'm not going to begrudge the whole order just because they had a lapse of judgment.

Pretty much this. The Wardens all heard the calling and were determined to battle their ancient enemies before the taint took them. Along comes a Tevinter mage and offers them a chance to hunt down the last of the "Old Gods" and kill them before they become the next Archdemons. To do that they need to cut their way through legions of darkspawn. That would kill all the Wardens if they attempted that themselves, but a demon army could help them with that. The Wardens were not thinking straight because of the calling and reasoned that it was a good plan. They of course had no idea that the spell would enslave them to Corypheus. Some of the Wardens kept their heads though and doubted the plan, those are the ones that will join you if you let them. Afterwards there is a civil war among the Wardens, as their role and authority is not agreed upon by everyone within the order. I always invite the Wardens to the Inquisition. My Inquisition will help them rebuild. 

[Assassino01]

In my opinion sending them away would be the gravest folly. The Warden made a mistake, and were fools in Inquisition. No question about it. But the damage was mainly to their own order, and they are sanctioned to take "any means necessary", so you don't really have any right to send them away anyway.

 

Mainly though they are instrumental to fighting the blight. And not only to kill the archdemon. What many seem to forget is the Blight itself, the sickness and the taint, which in essence renders any long term military campaign against the horde by any other force than the Grey Wardens futile, and doomed to disaster. Imagine an army of none-wardens, marching through Blighted lands, its scouts attacked by frenzied beasts and men, blight sickness spreading as the water they drink from is tainted, starvation setting in as no food can be foraged in blighted lands, and for every skirmish twice as many are tainted as are killed.

 

Only the Grey Wardens can survive for any prolonged periode in blighted lands, only the Grey Wardens can fight the Darkspawn again and again and keep going, and only the Wardens can brave the deep roads to hunt them in their lairs.

 

People seem to believe that just because your Warden could defeat the blight in about a year the blight is suddenly no trouble at all. But they tend to forget that you were insanely lucky. The Darkspawn could have pushed north to Denerim before your army was ready, they could have gone to the deep roads and struck anywhere in Thedas. Not to mention that the Archdemon was in no way obliged to show up at Denerim to fight you. It could have done as it did at Ostagar, keept away and let the Horde win the day. Even such a simple thing as Riordan not managing to cripple its wing in the battle would probably have meant defeat for your Warden back in Origins. 

 

Banishing the Wardens meant Ferelden was almost lost to the blight as the Archdemon saw no real opposition there. Banishing the Wardens from the greatest nation in Thedas could very well mean the victory of the Blight next time an Archdemon is awakened. 

[ThePhoenixKing]

In my opinion sending them away would be the gravest folly. The Warden made a mistake, and were fools in Inquisition. No question about it. But the damage was mainly to their own order, and they are sanctioned to take "any means necessary", so you don't really have any right to send them away anyway.

 

Mainly though they are instrumental to fighting the blight. And not only to kill the archdemon. What many seem to forget is the Blight itself, the sickness and the taint, which in essence renders any long term military campaign against the horde by any other force than the Grey Wardens futile, and doomed to disaster. Imagine an army of none-wardens, marching through Blighted lands, its scouts attacked by frenzied beasts and men, blight sickness spreading as the water they drink from is tainted, starvation setting in as no food can be foraged in blighted lands, and for every skirmish twice as many are tainted as are killed.

 

Only the Grey Wardens can survive for any prolonged periode in blighted lands, only the Grey Wardens can fight the Darkspawn again and again and keep going, and only the Wardens can brave the deep roads to hunt them in their lairs.

 

People seem to believe that just because your Warden could defeat the blight in about a year the blight is suddenly no trouble at all. But they tend to forget that you were insanely lucky. The Darkspawn could have pushed north to Denerim before your army was ready, they could have gone to the deep roads and struck anywhere in Thedas. Not to mention that the Archdemon was in no way obliged to show up at Denerim to fight you. It have done as it did at Ostagar, keep away and let the Horde win the day. Even such a simple thing as Riordan not managing to cripple its wing in the battle would probably have meant defeat for your Warden back in Origins. 

 

Banishing the Wardens meant Ferelden was almost lost to the blight as the Archdemon saw no real opposition there. Banishing the Wardens from the greatest nation in Thedas could very well mean the victory of the Blight next time an Archdemon is awakened. 

 

This, this, this, a thousand times this. I've run out of positive votes for the day, but yeah, you hit the nail on the head.

[Sunnie]

I don't understand how anyone could trust them to fight the next blight.  They're basically just another cult at this point.

Without them (Wardens), the next blight would never end. Kill the Archdemon a hundred times, it will rise again within feet or miles, depending on where the nearest darkspawn is. Call it a cult if you want, but the fact of the matter is that until the remaining two Old Gods are killed (or all the darkspawn are utterly destroyed completely), the wardens are the only way to protect everyone from extinction.

 

I'm also a bit weary of hearing people lump all Wardens together into what clearly was desperation on Clarel's part (brought on by the manipulation from Corypheus and the Fear Demon).  She was the Commander, most of the Wardens that were with her were following orders, like any military personnel anywhere. Many of them actually didn't support the order when Adamant was attacked, and helped The Inquisition. I don't know where you come from, but anwhere I know of insubordination can get you in a lot of hot water, and mutiny is usually dealt with by execution. If I was a Warden in that situation, I would have to keep quiet until such a time as I could do something that didn't guarantee that I would be killed for not agreeing with it.

 

Bottom line: Not all Wardens make huge blundering mistakes, and in fact, make very few of them. I can blame Clarel for what happened, but I can also understand why she did it, under the circumstances. There are bigger and more numerous mistakes and blunders made within the Nobility than the Wardens could ever possibly catch up with.

 

Some of you may agree, some not. I pity those who can't open their eyes enough to understand why something happens (especially when the reasons are all laid out in front of them), those people will always live in the dark.

[lyin321]

Without them (Wardens), the next blight would never end. Kill the Archdemon a hundred times, it will rise again within feet or miles, depending on where the nearest darkspawn is. Call it a cult if you want, but the fact of the matter is that until the remaining two Old Gods are killed (or all the darkspawn are utterly destroyed completely), the wardens are the only way to protect everyone from extinction.

 

 

..and again I ask: 'Do we know (as the Inquisitor not as the player) the reason the grey Wardens are the only one who can kill an Archdemon?'....maybe we can learn this from Morrigan, but again maybe (big maybe I confess) she can also know a ritual to bypass the need for a warden....hell we (eventually) might know an elven ritual to bypass the need of a warden:)

 And the 'Archdemon can't be killed by normal means!' can easily be worked around. Well...not that it so 'easy' to everpower an Archdemon to that level but you know what I mean. We simply overpower the dragon to the point where we don't kill it, but capture it instead and imprison it....now that will probably still leave a blight and THAT might be a big problem, but there are options.

 Tho I imagine we will kill it once because of the damn Warden's need for secrecy:)

 

...I kinda agree with the rest of your post, but still my current character will exile them (she blames the templars for blindly following orders).

[Assassino01]

..and again I ask: 'Do we know (as the Inquisitor not as the player) the reason the grey Wardens are the only one who can kill an Archdemon?'....maybe we can learn this from Morrigan, but again maybe (big maybe I confess) she can also know a ritual to bypass the need for a warden....hell we (eventually) might know an elven ritual to bypass the need of a warden:)

 And the 'Archdemon can't be killed by normal means!' can easily be worked around. Well...not that it so 'easy' to everpower an Archdemon to that level but you know what I mean. We simply overpower the dragon to the point where we don't kill it, but capture it instead and imprison it....now that will probably still leave a blight and THAT might be a big problem, but there are options.

 Tho I imagine we will kill it once because of the damn Warden's need for secrecy:)

 

...I kinda agree with the rest of your post, but still my current character will exile them (she blames the templars for blindly following orders).

 

 

It's a big risk to take, hoping that there is another way to kill an archdemon. If you exile the Wardens and there aren't you may possibly have a never ending blight, or at least one that ravages Orlais without opposition.

 

Also, again, people seem to think the dragon is the actual terror of the blight. But it is not. We know the dragon can direct the blight from afar, and tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of darkspawn, attacking at will anywhere in Thedas, tainting the land and poisoning men and beast alike is the true threat. There was no Archdemon among the darkspawn that fell on the Dwarven empire, and see how that turned out. 

 

The Grey Wardens are the only force capable of effectively opposing the blight, at least in the long term. Your normal armies would do for a short battle or two, like the skirmishes before Ostagar, but they cannot do it for long as the taint would take its toll in greater and greater numbers as time went on.  

[lyin321]

 Uff I closed my browser and deleted my (somewhat) well thought out message:)

 

...anyway back to the discussion: yes the corruption is the real enemy (followed closely by the Archdemon ), but you are mistaken that future battles will be anything like Ostagar. The difference is that now the chantry is...not exactly the superpower it was in DAO. We will not have to make it with the few mages the chantry give us. The corruption is a problem? Then the solution is somewhat easy - use range. And mages don't only have range, but most importantly they are powerfull. Even if they are half as powerfull as the chantry is trying to convince us they are, that will probably be enough. Let's say our mage Warden was a freak of nature and it requres 3-4 normal mages to make really big spells, but that's ok now. Because we can have alot more than 3 or 4 mages now that the chantry is no longer a problem.

 What's more we can ask how Morrigan (especially if she is Inquisitor's friend) how she evaded the corruption fighting with the HoF. And she must have some way to protect others too (Leliana/Zevran/etc) (that is assuming that it was not simply because it was a game ofcourse).

 

....now I wish our PC could have taken one warden to torture for information....)

[Antergaton]

There was no Archdemon among the darkspawn that fell on the Dwarven empire, and see how that turned out. 

 

Yes, there was. Dumat was found before the Dwarven empire fell.

[Assassino01]

Uff I closed my browser and deleted my (somewhat) well thought out message:)

...anyway back to the discussion: yes the corruption is the real enemy (followed closely by the Archdemon ), but you are mistaken that future battles will be anything like Ostagar. The difference is that now the chantry is...not exactly the superpower it was in DAO. We will not have to make it with the few mages the chantry give us. The corruption is a problem? Then the solution is somewhat easy - use range. And mages don't only have range, but most importantly they are powerfull. Even if they are half as powerfull as the chantry is trying to convince us they are, that will probably be enough. Let's say our mage Warden was a freak of nature and it requres 3-4 normal mages to make really big spells, but that's ok now. Because we can have alot more than 3 or 4 mages now that the chantry is no longer a problem.
What's more we can ask how Morrigan (especially if she is Inquisitor's friend) how she evaded the corruption fighting with the HoF. And she must have some way to protect others too (Leliana/Zevran/etc) (that is assuming that it was not simply because it was a game ofcourse).

....now I wish our PC could have taken one warden to torture for information....)

On my Phone, so this reply will be brief. As mentioned in a post above, there is far more to war than mere battles, and fighting a war of immortal monsters who need not eat, sleep or rest is something any army, No matter how man mages they have would fear, and fail at. Only the Grey Wardens can somewhat counter the Spawn's advantages.

I'm not saying a normal army could not defeat or push bak the horde for a time. But the darkspawn are relentless and innumerable. A few more mages will not turn the tide. Good proof of this would be the Tevinter imperium, they only defeated the Blight once the Wardens came.

Yes, there was. Dumat was found before the Dwarven empire fell.

I know. But the archdemon was not the one which razed the thaigs and defeated the dwarves. And even after Dumat died the Dwarven empire kept declining.

[lyin321]

 Nice to hear about the Tavinter imperium, but do we know (generally ofcourse) what exactly happened? Because I won't be surprised if the really powerfull blood mages just sent their slaves to deal with the darkspawn and...yea...

....actually when exactly did the wardens get created? Seeing as the Joining is kind of(if not) blood magic - are we sure they weren't the solution of the Imperium?

 

...and I am pretty sure that the grey warden are human/elves/dwarves (not sure about Qunary) so....apart from the immunity to corruption(not that it is small advantage) they lack any other advantage to normal troops:)

...that is unless you believe that going through the Joining give the grey Wardens enchanter strength/constitution (and as far as I know that is not canon...Avernus was convinced that it may but....in the future and with additional drinking:) ).

[X Equestris]

Nice to hear about the Tavinter imperium, but do we know (generally ofcourse) what exactly happened? Because I won't be surprised if the really powerfull blood mages just sent their slaves to deal with the darkspawn and...yea...
....actually when exactly did the wardens get created? Seeing as the Joining is kind of(if not) blood magic - are we sure they weren't the solution of the Imperium?
 
...and I am pretty sure that the grey warden are human/elves/dwarves (not sure about Qunary) so....apart from the immunity to corruption(not that it is small advantage) they lack any other advantage to normal troops:)
...that is unless you believe that going through the Joining give the grey Wardens enchanter strength/constitution (and as far as I know that is not canon...Avernus was convinced that it may but....in the future and with additional drinking:) ).

The thing is, if you get just a drop of darkspawn blood inside of you, you're going to turn into a ghoul. Grey Wardens don't suffer this risk. Also, the taint in the Wardens confuses darkspawn. This gives them a slight advantage in large battles, as darkspawn can't tell them apart from their own. It's not as effective as it was in the First Blight, but it's an advantage normal soldiers don't have.

[Sunnie]

'Do we know (as the Inquisitor not as the player) the reason the grey Wardens are the only one who can kill an Archdemon?'

One should be able to assume that since Thedas has now undergone five blights, with devastating losses, it would be common knowledge among most of the populace. The Wardens were romanticized quite heavily in times past, it would definitely be common knowledge by this point. I suppose there could be people who are hermits living out on the edge of society that have had no contact with the outside world, but that does not describe any of the backgrounds of any of the player races in DA:I. If you were important enough to be at the Conclave for this meeting, then you would have had enough education and social contact to know the history of blights.

[lyin321]

*Everybody with a lick of sense greatly approves*

damn it I knew I lack something important....

....actually nah...who need such useless thing:)

 

One should be able to assume that since Thedas has now undergone five blights, with devastating losses, it would be common knowledge among most of the populace. The Wardens were romanticized quite heavily in times past, it would definitely be common knowledge by this point. I suppose there could be people who are hermits living out on the edge of society that have had no contact with the outside world, but that does not describe any of the backgrounds of any of the player races in DA:I.

 

 There is a reason I mentioned Leliana/Morrigan. And no - I don't believe it is a common knowledge. When the R guy(the tortured grey warden) mentioned that the reason only grey wardens can kill an archdemon I got the feeling it was a secret. Tho if my char was a dalish or city elf I could see your point, but she was a nobility. Furthermore not just a nobility, but pretty high on the ladder. She would know or at least hear rumers...

 

Hell if it was common knowledge why would Loghain do everything he did?

[turuzzusapatuttu]

With a talking darkspawn on the loose, and no one knowing exactly what the heck his dragon is until the end, I would prefer the only people able to kill it to be around. Their mistakes were great, but it was due to their desire to end the Blight, and they could always be counted on if a 6th Blight occurred.

 

[lyin321]

 

 Thank you!

...and on that note I better stop posting on this topic, as....well....I seem to be losing my 'cool' aren't I?

...and I am just saying the same things over and over at this point

[Assassino01]

 Nice to hear about the Tavinter imperium, but do we know (generally ofcourse) what exactly happened? Because I won't be surprised if the really powerfull blood mages just sent their slaves to deal with the darkspawn and...yea...

....actually when exactly did the wardens get created? Seeing as the Joining is kind of(if not) blood magic - are we sure they weren't the solution of the Imperium?

 

...and I am pretty sure that the grey warden are human/elves/dwarves (not sure about Qunary) so....apart from the immunity to corruption(not that it is small advantage) they lack any other advantage to normal troops:)

...that is unless you believe that going through the Joining give the grey Wardens enchanter strength/constitution (and as far as I know that is not canon...Avernus was convinced that it may but....in the future and with additional drinking:) ).

 

While it it entirely possible that the Magisters themselves did not take part in the fighting against the Darkspawn it does not mean the Imperium did not wield mages against them. The Magisterium is after all just a tiny part of the entire Tevinter mage population. Most Tevinter Mages does not rule anything, and no doubt Tevinter wielded them in great number against such a formidable foe as the blight. 

 

The Wardens were founded in 305 -  Ancient, by veterans of the Blight which had been going on since 395 - Ancient. They were not part of Imperium, though many were former soldiers of the Imperial armies. They compiled their knowledge, along with that of Anders tribes-people, and elven slaves, and created the Joining. 

 

From there it took nearly another century before they managed to actually corner the Archdemon on the Silent Plains and kill it. 

 

Whether or not the Grey Wardens gain abilities from the taint I'm uncertain of. Certainly you get extra ability points after the Joining (one ability and one skill), and people refer to you having to eat more after the ritual, as well as the Grey Wardens' famed "endurance".  

[Kurt M.]

Seriously, is there any sensible stance in favor of letting them stay? I know we all love them as a whole, but the branch we deal with in Inquisition was faced with trouble and defaulted to USE BLOOD MAGIC TO SUMMON A DEMON ARMY. If it were any other faction, we'd put every one of them to the sword, but nostalgia for Origins means that almost everyone let them go with a promise to not do it again. Ridiculous!

 

So...the Wardens sacrifice themselves in a ritual that makes them half-corrupted, and save the world from the Blights FIVE freakin' times (with two more remaining), plus having a irreproachable history, and you want to banish them because they made a mistake and were completely fooled once?

 

Sometimes I completely understand the frustration many actual cops must have when people dares to criticise them for a mistake after having done endless good before it. As Blackwall said, people in silks are very quick to speak. And to judge.