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[In Exile]

So...the Wardens sacrifice themselves in a ritual that makes them half-corrupted, and save the world from the Blights FIVE freakin' times (with two more remaining), plus having a irreproachable history, and you want to banish them because they made a mistake and were completely fooled once?

Sometimes I completely understand the frustration many actual cops must have when people dares to criticise them for a mistake after having done endless good before it. As Blackwall said, people in silks are very quick to speak. And to judge.

What do you mean the wardens have an irreproachable history? They doom the world through their stupidity in every single piece of DA media that's ever featured them. Like trying to free Corypheus in DA2.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

What do you mean the wardens have an irreproachable history? They doom the world through their stupidity in every single piece of DA media that's ever featured them. Like trying to free Corypheus in DA2.

They don't actually doom the world through their stupidity in The Last Flight. Yes, what they do there is incredibly questionable in some bits, but they end up killing an Archdemon that could in fact have caused the apocalypse and the main cost is their griffons. (Which could have doomed the world next Blight if the Warden handling it wasn't a PC, or the Blight after that if it hadn't been undone, but the idea was that they wanted undoom the world in order to live long enough to care. Which I think they did. Also, I don't know how they could have expected the exact result they got from the griffon-Joining, since Wardens demonstrably don't do that to non-Joined humans.)

[Kurt M.]

What do you mean the wardens have an irreproachable history? They doom the world through their stupidity in every single piece of DA media that's ever featured them. Like trying to free Corypheus in DA2.

 

1) Explain me where in DA:O the Wardens were villains.

 

and 2) As far as I know, it's the Carta the ones who went crazy and searching for Hawke's blood, not the Wardens (who, in fact, built Corypheus' prison). Even the Warden who wanted to free him (Janeka) had good intentions. Yes, it was a bit foolish, but little to nothing was known about Corypheus before they freed him.

[KaiserShep]

1) Explain me where in DA:O the Wardens were villains.

 

and 2) As far as I know, it's the Carta the ones who went crazy and searching for Hawke's blood, not the Wardens (who, in fact, built Corypheus' prison). Even the Warden who wanted to free him (Janeka) had good intentions. Yes, it was a bit foolish, but little to nothing was known about Corypheus before they freed him.

 

The Carta didn't just make themselves go crazy. Janeka somehow roped them into it and allowed them to become thralls to do their dirty work beyond the prison.

[Ryzaki]

So...the Wardens sacrifice themselves in a ritual that makes them half-corrupted, and save the world from the Blights FIVE freakin' times (with two more remaining), plus having a irreproachable history, and you want to banish them because they made a mistake and were completely fooled once?

 

Sometimes I completely understand the frustration many actual cops must have when people dares to criticise them for a mistake after having done endless good before it. As Blackwall said, people in silks are very quick to speak. And to judge.

Any cop getting frustrated about having the truth spelled out to them needs to deal with it.

 

Doing good deeds isn't a get out of criticism card for the crappy things you pull.

[Kurt M.]

The Carta wouldn't have given a nug's left ovary about Hawke's blood. Janeka somehow roped them into it and allowed them to become thralls to do their dirty work beyond the prison.

 

Janeka may have used them to get Hawke's blood, but the Carta did became crazy due to Corypheus' influence (it's pretty evident from the cutscenes). Also, quote from the wiki:

 

"Hawke will have to fight their way through a Carta base swarming with obsessed dwarves, who are bound to the will of one they call "Corypheus".

 

 Any cop getting frustrated about having the truth spelled out to them needs to deal with it.

 

Doing good deeds isn't a get out of criticism card for the crappy things you pull.

 

Like if you know what's "the truth" anyway, nor that you're objective enough to apply it . And anyways, telling someone they've made a mistake and judging their whole life and acts all around it are two entirely different things. I'll let you guess what people does the most.

[KaiserShep]

The Carta didn't suddenly take it into their head to infuse their ale with darkspawn blood. It had to be force-fed to them.

[KaiserShep]

Sometimes I completely understand the frustration many actual cops must have when people dares to criticise them for a mistake after having done endless good before it. As Blackwall said, people in silks are very quick to speak. And to judge.

 

What? Nuts to their frustration as well as their "endless good". Cops do f**ked up things and deserve to be criticized.

[Kurt M.]

The Carta didn't suddenly take it into their head to infuse their ale with darkspawn blood. It had to be force-fed to them.

 

Unless you tell me how they managed to be "force-fed", that's just pure speculation.

 

What? Nuts to their frustration as well as their "endless good". Cops do f**ked up things and deserve to be criticized.

 

Criticised, maybe. Judged because of a mistake? No.

 

Or else, put yourself on their shoes and see if you can do better than them.

[Herr Uhl]

1) Explain me where in DA:O the Wardens were villains.

 

The wardens in DAO were pretty incompetent. He didn't say that they were all villainous, just bad at their jobs.

 

They were proponents to battle plan that led them to an unwinnable scenario. Then they didn't sense the darkpawn that managed to tunnel themselves into the fortress they were in. Riordan then pretty much throws his life away as one third of the wardens that could possibly kill the archdemon.

[Kurt M.]

The wardens in DAO were pretty incompetent. He didn't say that they were all villainous, just bad at their jobs.

 

They were proponents to battle plan that led them to an unwinnable scenario. Then they didn't sense the darkpawn that managed to tunnel themselves into the fortress they were in. Riordan then pretty much throws his life away as one third of the wardens that could possibly kill the archdemon.

 

That's very open to discussion even at Inquisitions' time and you know it (I mean Loghain's treason).

[KaiserShep]

Criticised, maybe. Judged because of a mistake? No.

 

 

"Mistake" is a vague and ultimately pointless euphemism. That can describe just about any act, from the generally benign to the outright heinous in nature. Should they be judged for a mistake? Well, that depends on the mistake. Should they be free from judgment for all mistakes? Hell no. People with authority are responsible for how they wield it. If it's abused, then they should be judged; it's just that sometimes the system may let a number of them slip past any real consequences, even if their actions break the very laws they are sworn to enforce.

 

 

Or else, put yourself on their shoes and see if you can do better than them.

 

I'm sorry, but this is a bullshit argument. If I get a plateful of botulism at a restaurant, you can't argue that I should put myself in the chef's shoes to see if I can do better.
 

Of course, with the Wardens, much of the guilty parties end up dying in battle, leaving just the ones that helped fight back, so that changes things, so I allied with them after their senior Warden bought it in the Fade, and then sent that one repentant Warden to die in the Deep Roads, since that's their thing after all.

[Herr Uhl]

That's very open to discussion even at Inquisitions' time and you know it (I mean Loghain's treason).

 

Have you actually seen the cutscenes? This isn't a hammer and anvil job (which the plan was). By the time that the anvil was crushed, there was still a steady stream of darkspawn pouring into the fortress. The fortress itself was lost even before the battle began.

 

The battle was lost before it began, at best the Fereldan army could have cut their way to the king and retreated.

 

It was a bad plan, and the wardens were useless at the one other thing than killing archdemons that they can actually do. Sensing darkspawn.

[Kurt M.]

"Mistake" is a vague and ultimately pointless euphemism. That can describe just about any act, from the generally benign to the outright heinous in nature. Should they be judged for a mistake? Well, that depends on the mistake. Should they be free from judgment for all mistakes? Hell no. People with authority are responsible for how they wield it. If it's abused, then they should be judged; it's just that sometimes the system may let a number of them slip past any real consequences, even if their actions break the very laws they are sworn to enforce.

 

I've never talked about abuse of authority. You should all stop using the "Revolutionary" card. I'm all but bored of it.

 

Of course that abuse of authority should be punished, but that's negligent, not a mistake.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is a bullshit argument. If I get a plateful of botulism at a restaurant, you can't argue that I should put myself in the chef's shoes to see if I can do better.

 

You couldn't find a worse example, no? Because just saying "a bad tasting salad" isn't just condemning enough.

 

Anyway, truth is that I'd say exactly the same if you got botulism from an otherwise flawless restaurant. Bad luck happens. Mistakes happens.

 

It's a pity things like those are more a product of voluntary negligence (again) than a mistake. Another thing people don't bother to distingish.

[Kurt M.]

Have you actually seen the cutscenes? This isn't a hammer and anvil job (which the plan was). By the time that the anvil was crushed, there was still a steady stream of darkspawn pouring into the fortress. The fortress itself was lost even before the battle began.

 

The battle was lost before it began, at best the Fereldan army could have cut their way to the king and retreated.

 

It was a bad plan, and the wardens were useless at the one other thing than killing archdemons that they can actually do. Sensing darkspawn.

 

I don't remember the cutscenes that well, and anyway I'm not interested in entering that discussion. The game devs' have made the whole ordeal ambiguous enough.

[Wulfram]

The wardens in DAO were pretty incompetent. He didn't say that they were all villainous, just bad at their jobs.

 

They were proponents to battle plan that led them to an unwinnable scenario. Then they didn't sense the darkpawn that managed to tunnel themselves into the fortress they were in. Riordan then pretty much throws his life away as one third of the wardens that could possibly kill the archdemon.

 

Riordan's plan might have been pretty crazy, but it basically worked, and was key to victory.  If he hadn't crippled the Archdemon's ability to fly, we'd have had no chance.

[KaiserShep]

I've never talked about abuse of authority. You should all stop using the "Revolutionary" card. I'm all but bored of it.

 

Of course that abuse of authority should be punished, but that's negligent, not a mistake.

 

 

You couldn't find a worse example, no? Because just saying "a bad tasting salad" isn't just condemning enough.

 

Anyway, truth is that I'd say exactly the same if you got botulism from an otherwise flawless restaurant. Bad luck happens. Mistakes happens.

 

It's a pity things like those are more a product of voluntary negligence (again) than a mistake. Another thing people don't bother to distingish.

I made no implications about revolution. A revolt is a response to a far more extreme issue.

 

In any case, this is why "mistake" is a useless term for sake of argument. It's simply too vague, because it can literally be anything, including negligence, so there is nothing to distinguish. People can get fired, imprisoned, or have the daylights sued out of them because of a "mistake", and their intentions can potentially have little to no impact in how it all pans out.

[Kurt M.]

I made no implications about revolution. A revolt is a response to a far more extreme issue.

 

In any case, this is why "mistake" is a useless term for sake of argument. It's simply too vague, because it can literally be anything, including negligence, so there is nothing to distinguish. People can get fired, imprisoned, or have the daylights sued out of them because of a "mistake", and their intentions can potentially have little to no impact in how it all pans out.

 

It was a way of saying....ah, ignore it....

 

And I guess you're right about the definition of "mistake". But that's also why people shouldn't be that quick to judge as they are. In my country, for example, there are even idiots who say that police shouldn't exist at all....bet they'll call their moms when some criminals break into their houses.

 

At least we agree that more careful consideration should be applied in every individual situation. I just hope you also mean in all cases: both applied to cops and civilians.

[DDJ]

I understand the comments generated and appreciate all of them pro and con.  It occurred to me as I read through it that we should not forget that they also were involved in sacrificing / murdering Divine Justinia thus triggering DAI's events and death on a massive scale "for the greater good."  The simple truth is that this murder caused thousands of deaths.  So, how many deaths does it take for the greater good to be satisfied.  Moreover, while the Inquisition may banish them it is ultimately Celene (SP?) who decides if they return.  After all, Dragon Age lore states that the fourth blight was 400 years before the fifth.  So, with respect for all, I still boot their butts.  

[thats1evildude]

I just don't see the point of exiling them. The Wardens who actually supported the plan to use blood magic and summon demons are dead. The survivors largely opposed the plan.

There's still a use for the Wardens. The darkspawn are still the greatest threat to Thedas. The order needs to be fixed, not ejected entirely.

[Rekkampum]

Because Darkspawn. D'uh.

[rapscallioness]

I exile them everytime. I'm not having folks that are still susceptible to Corypheus going into battle with me. Not to mention their role in killing the Divine. I don't think that's common knowledge in Thedas, yet. But if their role in all this got out, it would not bode well for the Wardens.

 

The Wardens in southern Thedas are freshly released from that hell of Corypheus. They have no, or few, high ranking Wardens left. They need time to regroup and reflect. They need to go back to Weisshaupt for a bit.

 

My objective in DAI was taking down Corypheus. Not the blight that may not even happen for another few centuries. And if it does happen sooner, I'm sure we can persuade the Wardens to come back south....since apparently only southern Thedas has blights? I think northern Thedas has its issues with the darkspawn, too. So, I don;t think their skills will go unused in the north.

 

Regardless, everytime I say, "Go home, Wardens. You're drunk."

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Another reason I have started to keep rather than exile the 'Wardens is to troll SolASS.

[rapscallioness]

lol! well, there is that.

[Sifr]

The Carta didn't just make themselves go crazy. Janeka somehow roped them into it and allowed them to become thralls to do their dirty work beyond the prison.

 

It's worth noting that one of the codex entries in the prison in Legacy states that the Ancient Warden's discovered that the mages in their ranks are far more susceptible to Corypheus' influence than non-mages. Apparently, Warden Mages who approached him felt compelled to free him, but after being removed from proximity, could not remember anything of what they'd said or done?

 

This is why Anders flips out when you take him to the prison and why Janeka was so convinced that freeing him is a good thing, because both of them were being affected by him and becoming enthralled? It's also why they required non-Wardens to seal him away in the first place, as well as recruit Malcolm Hawke to come and shore up the seals, because not carrying the taint within them would mean they'd not be affected by him?

 

It's probably another reason why Corypheus chose to sacrifice all the non-Mages in HLTA, as they were the ones most likely to turn against him or be controlled, once they discovered who Erimond's backer really was and what the demon army really was for?

 

Not to say that Janeka might not have intended to use Corypheus as a weapon initially and arrogantly believed she could have controlled him, but I'm betting by the time we meet her, she wasn't entirely in her own right mind and was probably being influenced?