1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Sotaklas]

I choose to keep them, and after i did the War Table missions for them, apprently most of them died, so at least they died helping my Inquisition to gain more power

[kingkonig]

It makes more sense to keep them around, if only to keep an eye on them.  My Templar allies will be around to make sure that the Wardens do not try any blood magic again, and if the Wardens mess up while in my care, they shall be banished into a fade rift that I open myself to push them in.  You get a second chance.  Not a third.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

Why do I not exile the Wardens? Simple really. I'm not stupid enough to waste resources. The Wardens are an excellent fighting force and as long as you keep them away from the Venatori, they're very useful. Pick the right advisor in their war table missions and you end up with a proud and loyal force for the Inquisition who get stuff done and aid the people and redeem themselves very handily. Why on earth would an intelligent Inquisitor waste an excellent resource like the Wardens?

 

Besides if they're with the Inquisition, the Inquisitor and his/her people can monitor them and make sure no other enterprising Venatori tries to lure the Warden mages away into servitude. If you exile them, you're leaving a vulnerable force just ripe for the picking by said enterprising Venatori. It's too much of a risk to exile them. You're pretty much saying, "Here, Venatori. If you can find them, you can have them." Which is kind of what you just stopped. Seems counterproductive to risk letting it happen again.

This!

 

Why waste resources? It's stupid of all of your companions to always say turn them away or some nonsense or conscript them. I say conscripting or allying is more debate-able. I'd rather ally. Plus, these factions pledge allegiance to you. As inquisitor, you can monitor them with your forces. Yes, some may be cause for concern but it's better to have them working with you then as disgruntled employees or slaves even or have them become some unknown resentful force doing Maker knows what after being exiled maybe plotting against you for turning them away.

 

United we can save Thedas from calamity!

[Dai Grepher]

Loghain made this mistake. Never again.

 

The Wardens are needed to fight the Darkspawn. Otherwise you have waves of men and women being lost on a force of nature that never ends. Even if they win, they likely get blighted from it and have to be killed as well. Wardens are resistant to the taint, and can just keep on fighting.

 

The Wardens are needed to slay any possible archdemon that could arise.

 

I agree that they are a liability once you learn of Corypheus' ability, but keeping the Wardens isolated and few at Skyhold is an effective deterrent.

 

As for the behavior of the Wardens, I can sort of understand. They were being influenced by the Nightmare, and they thought something was wrong with the order. They all thought they were dying off prematurely. They panicked. They thought using blood magic to summon demons to kill the remaining old gods would save the world. They knew that without Wardens, the old gods would eventually be corrupted and new blights would destroy the world. They were confused by duty and fear. They also believe their leader understood the right path and knew the best way for them to go. They trusted her. Only a select few had the courage to see past all this and take the risk of fighting against the order for what they thought was right.

 

Think of it this way. Take any political stance or social cause that is dear to you. Imagine yourself fighting for it, then imagine that it is on the verge of being destroyed forever unless you and others like you do something about it. Now imagine that you get the idea that following that path and believing as you do is wrong. What do you do about that? Do you try to convince all your companions to abandon that way? Do you risk being ostracized or even attacked by your friends? Do you risk being wrong and possibly destroying your cause because you just had some bad feeling about it all?

 

What Stroud did (in my playthrough) was go against everything he "knew" was right, in order to follow his gut that what the Wardens were doing was a mistake. He had no evidence. He didn't know what was going on. He just knew the Wardens were acting strangely. He was taking a huge risk, and if he were wrong, it might threaten to allow the order to die out completely. There were high stakes. Not many Wardens would be willing to take that risk. Not many Wardens would be willing to entertain outsiders and their opinions, people who never lived the lives of Wardens or understood what they have to go through every second of their shortened lives.

 

What Stroud, Alistair, or even (to a lesser extent) Loghain do in the game would for us represent a complete betrayal of everything we stand for. That's why I don't really blame the Wardens for what happened. They were gripped by fear. A fear that all life in the world would fall to the Blight. Sten was gripped by fear when he awoke without his sword, and I blamed him more for his actions than I did the Wardens, and yet I still freed Sten from his cage.

 

Also take into account that the Warden companion could be the one to stay behind and distract the Nightmare. So will you dishonor his sacrifice by exiling his order? He allowed your escape. He risked it all to save his order and the Nightmare was his "reward". You're really going to refuse to understand him and the Wardens after all that, even though you wouldn't have the opportunity to refuse that understanding if not for his selflessness?

 

Who would exile the Wardens in that case?

[robertthebard]

Grey Wardens got a serious character assassination in DAI.

Did they really, or did we finally get to see what "Stop the blight at all costs" really means, this while there wasn't even a blight to stop? So you didn't play the Keep quest in Origins to know that they'll resort to whatever means necessary even to get involved in things they're not supposed to be involved in, such as overthrowing a King? That's what got them banished from Ferelden in the first place. Plotting to overthrow a king.

If it's not in game it didn't happen.
 
I don't care if Bioware considers then canon or not, the vast majority of players haven't read them.

The incident listed in my first reply to you is in the game, and did happen. It lays out exactly why the Wardens had been banished from Ferelden when Origins starts. I haven't read the books, but I have played the games, and frankly, there's no character assassination involved; all we got was a full dose of what they are really willing to do, and it's not the first time.

[kingkonig]

The incident listed in my first reply to you is in the game, and did happen. It lays out exactly why the Wardens had been banished from Ferelden when Origins starts. I haven't read the books, but I have played the games, and frankly, there's no character assassination involved; all we got was a full dose of what they are really willing to do, and it's not the first time.

 

People forget that Alistair was very new to the Wardens.  Everything that the HoF knew about being a Warden he/she learned from Alistair, who had a romanticized version of what a Grey Warden does.  The Wardens consistently operate in secrecy, and if any of their big secrets came out (the Joining, the dreams, etc), the Chantry would denounce them.  Their rite of conscription angers many nobles and templars alike (take the firstborn of an Arl, he isn't going to be happy; take a charge, and a templar won't be pleased).

 

Even our "heroes" in the first game get to make several disturbing decisions.  You can wipe out an entire Circle via the rite of annulment, you can wipe out the Dalish clan (or wipe out a group of accursed humans), you can keep the Anvil of the Void (or kill a paragon - a living god of the Dwarves), and you can even DEFILE ANDRASTE'S ASHES.  The Wardens are not heroes.  They are a necessary force to keep evil at bay.

[Dai Grepher]

I don't think it was character assassination. I think it was a subtle and nuanced storyline. The Wardens were driven by fear and duty to do what they did. They were deceived and taken advantage of.

 

Also, a human noble can possibly know about the Grey Wardens from Aldous. So it's possible to know of their darker deeds before you ever meet Alistair. And besides, Duncan conscripting you in front of your parents, one of whom is dying, also leaves a pretty bad impression.

[Scuttlebutt101]

Imo, it was character assassination not because of the whole "stop the Blight at all costs" thing, but because they were handed a massive Idiot Ball - not a single Warden other than Alistair wondered why EVERY Warden, newbie or veteran, is hearing the Calling at once. I think Bioware was trying to make them more morally ambiguous (as if burning down a city to stop the taint from spreading wasn't morally ambiguous enough) so that more people would consider exiling them, otherwise it wouldn't be a ~tough choice~.

 

Anyway, I never exile them. No matter what they did, they're still the only ones who can end Blights.

[robertthebard]

Imo, it was character assassination not because of the whole "stop the Blight at all costs" thing, but because they were handed a massive Idiot Ball - not a single Warden other than Alistair wondered why EVERY Warden, newbie or veteran, is hearing the Calling at once. I think Bioware was trying to make them more morally ambiguous (as if burning down a city to stop the taint from spreading wasn't morally ambiguous enough) so that more people would consider exiling them, otherwise it wouldn't be a ~tough choice~.
 
Anyway, I never exile them. No matter what they did, they're still the only ones who can end Blights.

...and you are, of course, correct. They are the only ones that can end a Blight. I've gone on record from the start of this thread indicating that there is no right or wrong answer to this question. The Inquisitor of the moment is perfectly justified, no matter what they decide to do, based entirely on what they know of the lore and what's happened to that point in the game.

I'll just note here that "following orders" is a justification given for many crimes over the course of our own history, and that's the one the "innocent" wardens will want to be using, save the one that turns herself in for judgement. There was, however, nothing out of character for them in what they did. It's not even the first time that they've done it.

[DDJ]

I think that it is a fair point that "only Wardens can stop the blight" in so far as it goes.  The question remains is that really true.  We know that the Wardens make that claim that only they can kill the archdemon, but consider what happens in Dragon Age Inquisition.  C had the potential, that he did not use, to summon the darkspawn plus he could jump to any blighted creature.  Yet the Inquisitor destroyed him by destroying his body and forcing his spirit into the fade.  Consider also the dreamer from DA 2.  The keeper says that they had the ability to kill their enemies in their sleep, and since the Wardens do know where the Old Gods are, it seems a simple matter to nab the kid out of Tervinter (spelling?) for the greater good and have him kill the remaining two Old Gods in their sleep.

 

Would the spawn then be as great of a threat?  I think not.  Where were they before the first blight?  Since the archdemons only go after the Old Gods, as do the spawn, their raiding of the surface would diminish if not cease.  

 

I think we all may be missing a crucial point here.  Regardless of keeping or booting them, the end is the same.  Hawke with weird reasoning goes to the Warden fortress.  If the Wardens go, all falls silent there.  If they do not go they are massacred in one of the missions.  Either way they are gone.  I believe it points to DA 4 as a plot point.  Also consider that the Hero of Ferelden, if the Warden survived and romanced Leliana, will be hunting for a cure to the Calling - i.e., being tainted.  This does not sound like someone honored to have been corrupted "for the greater good."

 

Whatever the case, I still boot the Wardens.  If they are that easily manipulated to believe all of them are dying at once, they are far too volatile a force to keep around.  Nor can I ignore the murder of the Divine or the thousands of ensuing deaths it causes.  Good deeds do not excuse what amounts to mass murder.  Sorry guys, but while I appreciate all the views presented, the Wardens remain booted.  

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Loghain made this mistake. Never again.

 

Except the Inquisitor suffers nothing for sending the Wardens packing, so, how much of a mistake was it really?

 

 

Loghain's decision was not completely unreasonable. He just did not have the plot on his side like the Warden or Inquisitor.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Except the Inquisitor suffers nothing for sending the Wardens packing, so, how much of a mistake was it really?

 

In fact, the inquisitor is most likely to gain from it. IIRC a war table mission mentions that the inquisition is starting to seize all Warden property.

 

Gonna snatch Vigil's Keep from the HoF while they're away.

[General TSAR]

Pity there wasn't a 3rd option.

 

I don't particularity love or even like the Wardens, but they are a vital asset against the darkspawn.

 

However, if there was a way the Inquisition could recreate the joining....

[In Exile]

He most definitely did not throw his life away. He died facing the Archdemon, which was expected of him. In fact, like another user mentioned, he crippled its wing so it was forced to land. Without that chance, the Warden could've never defeated the Archdemon. Certainly not in an aerial battle.

Riordan did his part and is a goddamn hero.

The plan is absolutely insane. It's the equivalent of shooting myself in the head in the hopes of becoming President of the US. If through some ridiculous statistically unlikely miracle I end up President it doesn't make my decision less stupid.

Riordan jumped off a rooftop. To actually land on the AD is the equivalent of hitting a bullet with another bullet. The risk is so astronomical, and his life is so insanely valuable (he's one of 3 people that can kill the AD) that he's again risking the doom of all of Ferelden for no real gain.

It's such a mind boggling stupid plan that Riordan should have been chained up for his own good.

[KaiserShep]

If they do not go they are massacred in one of the missions.  Either way they are gone. 

 

This isn't true. The outcome of the final operation depends on the combination/order of advisers you use in the previous missions.

[KaiserShep]

The plan is absolutely insane. It's the equivalent of shooting myself in the head in the hopes of becoming President of the US. If through some ridiculous statistically unlikely miracle I end up President it doesn't make my decision less stupid.

Riordan jumped off a rooftop. To actually land on the AD is the equivalent of hitting a bullet with another bullet. The risk is so astronomical, and his life is so insanely valuable (he's one of 3 people that can kill the AD) that he's again risking the doom of all of Ferelden for no real gain.

It's such a mind boggling stupid plan that Riordan should have been chained up for his own good.

 

It would've been pretty hilarious if Riordan didn't time his jump right and plummeted straight to his death.

[Arakiel12409]

I exiled them once because Varric mentioned that Corypheus was already killed and then resurrected in a Grey Warden (conjectured for my Inquisitor at the time, of course, based on his and Hawkes description of the battle). No need to invite a group of potential trojan horses for Cory into my army. Go back to Weisshaupt and regroup for the next Blight, as you always have.

 

In most playthroughs, though, I keep them. Additional soldiers and war table missions are opportunities that should not be wasted.

[Scuttlebutt101]

I think that it is a fair point that "only Wardens can stop the blight" in so far as it goes.  The question remains is that really true.  We know that the Wardens make that claim that only they can kill the archdemon, but consider what happens in Dragon Age Inquisition.  C had the potential, that he did not use, to summon the darkspawn plus he could jump to any blighted creature.  Yet the Inquisitor destroyed him by destroying his body and forcing his spirit into the fade.

 

Theoretically, there may be a lot of ways to end Blights without the Wardens but until any of them is shown to actually work in practice, Wardens remain the only safe bet. I don't see how Corypheus' case is relevant. He and the Inquisitor are both unique and defeating him wasn't easy. To destroy his body-snatching Diabolus ex Machina someone had to drink from the Well of Sorrows. To destroy Corypheus himself, the Inquisitor had to open a window to the Fade and toss him out of it. I'm pretty sure people in Thedas don't just find ancient magical Elven relics and Veil-opening devices lying around.

 

Consider also the dreamer from DA 2.  The keeper says that they had the ability to kill their enemies in their sleep, and since the Wardens do know where the Old Gods are, it seems a simple matter to nab the kid out of Tervinter (spelling?) for the greater good and have him kill the remaining two Old Gods in their sleep.

I'm willing to bet that when Marethari said "enemies", she didn't exactly have Old Gods in mind. We know little about the dreamers, aside from the fact that dreamer abominations are extremely dangerous. We don't know much about Old Gods either. For all we know, trying to take on an OG with their abilities could backfire and make things worse. To be honest, it doesn't really matter because Feynriel could be made tranquil in DA2 and since the dreamers are supposed to be very rare (and even if one or two could be found somewhere, that doesn't mean they would be willing to take part in this), it would be stupid to rely on them to end/prevent Blights.

 

Even if these ideas could work, they would require some absolutely utopian conditions for it. Again, why come up with such extravagant methods with dubious chances of success when you have an army of darkspawn/Archdemon killing machines ready to go? 

 

Would the spawn then be as great of a threat?  I think not.  Where were they before the first blight?  Since the archdemons only go after the Old Gods, as do the spawn, their raiding of the surface would diminish if not cease.  

Tell it to the dwarves.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The Archdemons ARE Old Gods. They make the darkspawn hordes more organized, but it doesn't mean that darkspawn are dormant without them or something. They still kill everything they see and are able to find their way to the surface, either by themselves or with outside help (see Investigate Val Gamord operation chain). 

 

I think we all may be missing a crucial point here.  Regardless of keeping or booting them, the end is the same.  Hawke with weird reasoning goes to the Warden fortress.  If the Wardens go, all falls silent there.  If they do not go they are massacred in one of the missions.  Either way they are gone. 

No. They can survive with a specific choice of advisors. And "all falls silent" can mean a lot of things. 

[Vaseldwa]

The way I see it, its one big "you lose some you win some" with the wardens. Yea they do a lot of bad things to get the job done and don't always make the right decisions. But when it comes down to it, they are there to pull thedas out of the fire no matter the cost. From what we learned they may also be there to clean up the mess of a certain individual with too much pride to come clean and ask for help   ("if" my theory is correct, also not saying they are aware they are dealing with a certain individuals mistake instead of the tevinter magistars). 

 

Oh and I never Banish the Wardens 

Modifié par CastelessScars, 15 avril 2015 - 10:15 .

[Fearsome1]

Why wouldn't you exile the Grey Wardens?  Easy answer.

 

King Alistair, Bethany Hawke, "Blackwall", Carver Hawke, Daveth, Duncan, Garahel, Hafter, Kristoff, Larius, Loghain, Ser Mhairi, Nathaniel Howe, Oghren, Riordan, Sigrun, Stroud, Velanna and someone that we are all familiar with: The Warden / Warden-Commander.

 

My point being that even with some of these characters personal back stories, they all proved to be honorable and worthy members of the organization. There are also others tied into a few of these names to which the same inclination is evident. We have seen, read and/or interacted with far more decent Wardens than those few leaders who took the entire order down the path that led to their role in Inquistion (and all done under the pernicious influence of Corypheus); plus Warden-Commander Clarel redeemed herself, at least in my eyes, once she realized that she had willingly allowed herself to be duped (and again, despite the harshness of her actions, for the best of reasons).

 

Try riding out the next Blight with the Warden's gone the way of the dodo?

[frankf43]

Seriously, is there any sensible stance in favor of letting them stay? I know we all love them as a whole, but the branch we deal with in Inquisition was faced with trouble and defaulted to USE BLOOD MAGIC TO SUMMON A DEMON ARMY. If it were any other faction, we'd put every one of them to the sword, but nostalgia for Origins means that almost everyone let them go with a promise to not do it again. Ridiculous!

 

To end the next Blight? When the next Arch Demon crawls out of The Deep Roads whose gonna kill it? It's like sitting in the middle of an Ocean and saying why do I need this boat? Wouldn't I be better getting rid of it. After all the diesel it uses will destroy the environment.

[DDJ]

Once again, I understand and respect all the comments.  I have thought the "stop the blight" thing through.  Booting them sends them to the north.  I seriously thought of not booting them in the future, but the deaths and suffering they caused outweighed it.  This was not a blight, and if all the Wardens heard the calling simultaneously, it indicates that while their it indicates that the taint they embrace or are forced into warps their morality and common sense.  Why did they not send word to their commander in the north informing him or her?  It indicates that the Wardens are severely compromised by the taint.  Considering this, and considering the fact that they use "the greater good" to justify anything they want to do, I feel no remorse in removing them.  I don't want them near my troops since at the time I don't really know if C will strike at them again.  Stroud is the only one who really keeps his mind, but since the Wardens unleashed the chaos, I let him stay in the Fade.    One cannot deny that they do good things, but at the end of it all one cannot overlook the carnage their actions caused.  Nor can I say with certainty that it was only mages who killed the Divine.  So, with respect to all, they remain booted.  

[frankf43]

Once again, I understand and respect all the comments.  I have thought the "stop the blight" thing through.  Booting them sends them to the north.  I seriously thought of not booting them in the future, but the deaths and suffering they caused outweighed it.  This was not a blight, and if all the Wardens heard the calling simultaneously, it indicates that while their it indicates that the taint they embrace or are forced into warps their morality and common sense.  Why did they not send word to their commander in the north informing him or her?  It indicates that the Wardens are severely compromised by the taint.  Considering this, and considering the fact that they use "the greater good" to justify anything they want to do, I feel no remorse in removing them.  I don't want them near my troops since at the time I don't really know if C will strike at them again.  Stroud is the only one who really keeps his mind, but since the Wardens unleashed the chaos, I let him stay in the Fade.    One cannot deny that they do good things, but at the end of it all one cannot overlook the carnage their actions caused.  Nor can I say with certainty that it was only mages who killed the Divine.  So, with respect to all, they remain booted.  

 

My view is that they are a weapon that is needed when ever a Arch Demon raises it's head but at other times their views make them morally questionable.  They are necessary but they need an  Oversight Committee. That's where the Inquisition comes in. I take it upon myself to make sure they behave while they wait out the next blight.