Keep in mind that Coryphipants made all Wardens (real ones) hear the calling, that would also include Wardens in the north. Every Warden heard the calling and that would include Weisshaupt. For all we know at this point, every Warden in Weisshaupt may be off in the Deep Roads chasing Darkspawn. We don't know.
So really, exiling the ONLY known surviving Wardens is an extremely foolish and short sighted maneuver.
My view is that they are a weapon that is needed when ever a Arch Demon raises it's head but at other times their views make them morally questionable. They are necessary but they need an Oversight Committee. That's where the Inquisition comes in. I take it upon myself to make sure they behave while they wait out the next blight.
But no one knows they're necessary. This is part of what makes them all such morons. The other nations and major players know they're excellent at fighting darkspawn, have a lot of knowledge in that regard, ended the first blight only when they appeared on the scene, and were instrumental in ending the others.
But the actual fact of it has to be a GW who kills the AD is not widely known, so while I agree that an exile is unjustified at the meta-level for this reason, in-game the Inquisitor has no idea.
But no one knows they're necessary. This is part of what makes them all such morons. The other nations and major players know they're excellent at fighting darkspawn, have a lot of knowledge in that regard, ended the first blight only when they appeared on the scene, and were instrumental in ending the others.
But the actual fact of it has to be a GW who kills the AD is not widely known, so while I agree that an exile is unjustified at the meta-level for this reason, in-game the Inquisitor has no idea.
Except Leliana was there when the Grey Warden killed the Arch Demon and now she's one of my 3 advisers. She wouldn't be much of a adviser if she didn't tell me about the Warden's special snowflake ability before I passed judgement on them now would she.
Except Leliana was there when the Grey Warden killed the Arch Demon and now she's one of my 3 advisers. She wouldn't be much of a adviser if she didn't tell me about the Warden's special snowflake ability before I passed judgement on them now would she.
She only even has any reason to suspect anything like this if the Warden didn't do the DR, and even then there's no reason to think she's privy to the details.
Except Leliana was there when the Grey Warden killed the Arch Demon and now she's one of my 3 advisers. She wouldn't be much of a adviser if she didn't tell me about the Warden's special snowflake ability before I passed judgement on them now would she.
No one is privity to that secret beside you, Alistair/Loghain, and Riordan. Morrigan knows for entirely independent reasons. The rest of your party never finds out.
Also, I believe it is known that Grey Wardens are needed to defeat the Blight, just not specifically why. Of course, that lack of specificity does deprive it of much of it's credibility and force
Though a surprising number of people take it as read anyway.
I haven't done this myself, but I understand that Leliana knows about the Dark Ritual in Inquisition if she was romanced, and is grateful for it saving the Warden's life, which would imply knowledge of the rest. She certainly knows about the Calling if romanced.
Also, I believe it is known that Grey Wardens are needed to defeat the Blight, just not specifically why. Of course, that lack of specificity does deprive it of much of it's credibility and force
Seriously, is there any sensible stance in favor of letting them stay? I know we all love them as a whole, but the branch we deal with in Inquisition was faced with trouble and defaulted to USE BLOOD MAGIC TO SUMMON A DEMON ARMY. If it were any other faction, we'd put every one of them to the sword, but nostalgia for Origins means that almost everyone let them go with a promise to not do it again. Ridiculous!
In DA:I the idea solution would be to send them back to Anderfells once the Elder One is defeated then send word that they could come back, but to disband or get rid of the Grey Wardens forever is just extremely stupid due to the fact that there are at least still 2 more Old Gods/Archdemons still buried and there still plenty Darkspawn still looking for them.
Well let's see. I just saved Orlais and created true peace between them and Fereladan. They are my most powerful ally and I am not about to let another Blight (you never know) wipe them out because of a choice I made based on what happened in that moment (to Wardens who stood down and refused to join in the blood magic) and not throughout history (Sophia being an exception). Not only would I get blamed and our treaty strained, but I would be endangering future generations. Until the Blight is truly ended or cured, Wardens must be rebuilt stronger and better.
Because the Wardens were banished from Ferelden 200 years ago (for taking the wrong side in a revolt against a tyrant), yet remained distrusted all the way to the present day. This left them most vulnerable to a Blight when another Archdemon woke up since the only people able sense and predict them were too few and too distrusted to effectively quell them before they got out of hand. I personally don't think it's any coincidence that when an intelligent, thinking, cunning Archdemon awoke, it went for the country with the least amount of Grey Warden presence, welcome, or activity. One can't help but think that if Ferelden would have been a lot better off if they had forgiven their centuries' old grudge much sooner.
For DAI I saw that pattern rearing its ugly head again, and decided to nip it in the bud. (Banishing them from Orlais seems beneficial in the short term, but in the long term you can't predict what the darkspawn will do, what new tricks they'll pull up their sleeves, or where or when the next Blight will strike. So better not fire the only firemen of your world assuming the flame will never come back to your door.)
Why wouldn't you exile the Grey Wardens? Easy answer.
King Alistair, Bethany Hawke, "Blackwall", Carver Hawke, Daveth, Duncan, Garahel, Hafter, Kristoff, Larius, Loghain, Ser Mhairi, Nathaniel Howe, Oghren, Riordan, Sigrun, Stroud, Velanna and someone that we are all familiar with: The Warden / Warden-Commander.
My point being that even with some of these characters personal back stories, they all proved to be honorable and worthy members of the organization. There are also others tied into a few of these names to which the same inclination is evident. We have seen, read and/or interacted with far more decent Wardens than those few leaders who took the entire order down the path that led to their role in Inquistion (and all done under the pernicious influence of Corypheus); plus Warden-Commander Clarel redeemed herself, at least in my eyes, once she realized that she had willingly allowed herself to be duped (and again, despite the harshness of her actions, for the best of reasons).
Try riding out the next Blight with the Warden's gone the way of the dodo?
Well said all of you. With respect to all viewpoints, I never said that the Wardens' exile would be permanent. Actions have consequences however. The Wardens remain steeped in secrecy, yet many of these secrets that would actually benefit Thedas remain hidden as "Grey Warden business." They have become mired, the same as the Seekers and the Templars, in tradition having lost sight of the fact that since a blight occurs every 280 years on the average (if I did the math correctly) and the fact that they did not occur as such - although granted there were probably raids before that - has led to arrogance, an arrogance that Stroud expresses all too well in his argument with Hawke during the encounter at Stroud's hiding place. I have the impression that their paranoia about revealing the truth has blinded them to all but tradition. Evidence of this occurs when Leliana discusses the Hero of Ferelden who is on a quest to find a cure for the calling - i.e., the taint. That hardly sounds like something an "I'm thrilled to be corrupted so I can die in some nameless battle somewhere" warrior would do. It sounds like someone who wants a normal life. I have sincere doubts that the Wardens in general know what the Hero is up too or they would be hunting her down to kill her. Also, in Awakening you'll note that Oghren already knows he has to drink from the blood. There are only two logical suspects to have told him, and given Alastair's circumvention of the truth it had to be the Warden. The Warden is one of the great heroes of the age, and yet he / she has abandoned them by the end of Awakening to "move on."
So, given the facts and my own moral compass, the Wardens are booted for the moment. Likely I will permit them to return - under suitable supervision of course, but their "rights" are going to be severely curbed and murder for the "greater good" such as Jory and the Divine will be prosecuted and suitably punished. With respect to all, I return to the chaos following the Divine's death and the thousands of lives lost under the greater good credo. This mass murder cannot be justified, and frankly while I would not have done it, executing the Wardens at Adamant would not have been an unreasonable punishment for the destruction, misery and death that they willingly aided in creating. Sophia Dryden was punished by being made a Warden, something she did not want, and used her rank to start a Civil War. So, to my mind, they will be allowed back with severe restrictions and a firm, untainted moral compass as their leader. On their own they will never improve. Also with respect, the writers try valiantly to skirt this issue. The Warden is never permitted to discuss Jory's death after his murder at the joining. If one plays the game where you feel betrayed by the Wardens, you still end up hero and Alastair tries to "butter you up." If you die he covers it up. The issue is avoided in its entirety. One is forced to wonder how many people refused to join the Wardens and were killed like Jory. How many died in the joining and their families never told like Howe's father? And, if you break free from the joining do the Wardens hunt you down like a mad dog to preserve their secrets?
I noticed in DAI that the Templars are to be changed and improved as are the Seekers, the Chantry and the Circles. The Wardens need to change or be changed, and I do not believe they can - or want to - on their own. That remains for a powerful, outside force to to such as the Inquisition. Their dogma is the same as the the Chantry's in similar ways. Sorry guys, but the Wardens remain, with all due respect to those of you who disagree, booted.
I didn't exile the Wardens, because they're useful (like a tool; at least one required in case of Blight), and they would return (see Sophia Dryden's story) anyway. There are neither sentiments nor hate, only pure pragmatism.
I didn't ban them because I didn't approve of their character assassination. Ever since DA2, BioWare has been taking a huge dump on the Wardens. Yes, the Wardens will do whatever it takes to win and they've stopped 5 Blights in that way, problem is that BioWare doesn't know how to convey this unless it's in the most-hamfisted way possible
Umm... The Wardens didn't feature at all in DAO besides Riordan's suicide jump and Duncan's general inability to grasp his own Order's importance.I didn't ban them because I didn't approve of their character assassination. Ever since DA2, BioWare has been taking a huge dump on the Wardens. Yes, the Wardens will do whatever it takes to win and they've stopped 5 Blights in that way, problem is that BioWare doesn't know how to convey this unless it's in the most-hamfisted way possible
I didn't ban them because I didn't approve of their character assassination. Ever since DA2, BioWare has been taking a huge dump on the Wardens.
Umm... The Wardens didn't feature at all in DAO besides Riordan's suicide jump and Duncan's general inability to grasp his own Order's importance.
You can't assassinate a character you haven't featured.
Beyond that, every single portrayal of the Wardens shows them as obsessed with defeating the blight and taking insane and self-destructive risks to do it.
I can't wait to uncover more about the Wardens.
It baffles me that people still manage to discuss this.
I'll talk to the Exilers again when they receive a codex entry about southern Thedas summed up as: "everyone died #rekt, gg wp" because Archdemons are still very much a thing.
And body-hopping magisters apparently. Because Cory and Archie can't be the only ones.
Umm... The Wardens didn't feature at all in DAO besides Riordan's suicide jump and Duncan's general inability to grasp his own Order's importance.
You can't assassinate a character you haven't featured.
Beyond that, every single portrayal of the Wardens shows them as obsessed with defeating the blight and taking insane and self-destructive risks to do it.
Character assassination, not assassination of characters. Riordan and Duncan, while committed to doing anything to stop the Blight, were tempered with realism. In DA2 and DA:I, the Wardens are practically cartoon villains who would plot to blow up the ocean if it meant the destruction of the Darkspawn.
Character assassination, not assassination of characters. Riordan and Duncan, while committed to doing anything to stop the Blight, were tempered with realism. In DA2 and DA:I, the Wardens are practically cartoon villains who would plot to blow up the ocean if it meant the destruction of the Darkspawn.
Character assassination, not assassination of characters. Riordan and Duncan, while committed to doing anything to stop the Blight, were tempered with realism. In DA2 and DA:I, the Wardens are practically cartoon villains who would plot to blow up the ocean if it meant the destruction of the Darkspawn.
Riordan knew the measure of his abilities and was able to cripple the Arch-Demon to a point where it couldn't fly.
Duncan wanted to wait for the Orlesians or at least for the Redcliffe forces, but ultimately it was Cailan's & Loghain's decision and Duncan could have had no way of knowing Loghain's betrayal. Also, Ser Jory pulled his sword out first.
The Wardens in Legacy and DA:I on the other hand are presented as cartoonishly dumb. Allying with Tevinter to make a demon-army? The same Tevinter that created the Blight in the first place?
What realism? Riordan was so incredibly stupid he actually committed suicide on screen. It was only through the greatest fluke imaginable he amounted to anything before becoming a stain on the floor.
And Duncan's even worse, since he agreed to a strategy that not only risked dooming all Ferelden but also would have made it almost impossible for his men to reach the AD if it showed. Not to mention that they all set themselves up in the most amazing kill zone for a strafing run.
Beyond that we see Duncan straight up MURDER Set Jowry for not being willing to risk surprise suicide in the Joining. That's pretty dark.
I'll give you Duncan, but as for Riordan, someone was probably going to have to do what he did eventually if they wanted the AD to die. They couldn't fly up to it, because magic is relatively weak in this setting and there were no more griffons. And aiming a ballista at a moving (and flying) target just isn't happening.
The Wardens saved Thedas from the Blight. PERIOD.
Exile them from Orlais, Ferelden, wherever and you might find yourself in a devastated nation, with everyone dead after the attack of darkspawn hordes or dying from the taint.
NO ONE survives the taint, ONLY the Wardens. It's a highly-infectious disease that kills anything in a matter of hours. If it doesn't kill you, it'll turn you into a ghoul. So NO, exiling the Wardens is NOT a bright idea.
The Wardens saved Thedas from the Blight. PERIOD.
Exile them from Orlais, Ferelden, wherever and you might find yourself in a devastated nation, with everyone dead after the attack of darkspawn hordes or dying from the taint.
NO ONE survives the taint, ONLY the Wardens. It's a highly-infectious disease that kills anything in a matter of hours. If it doesn't kill you, it'll turn you into a ghoul. So NO, exiling the Wardens is NOT a bright idea.
I'll give you Duncan, but as for Riordan, someone was probably going to have to do what he did eventually if they wanted the AD to die. They couldn't fly up to it, because magic is relatively weak in this setting and there were no more griffons. And aiming a ballista at a moving (and flying) target just isn't happening.
There are lots of ways to get the AD out of the sky. The best one being "Don't attack the darkspawn horde without coming up with a plan on how to get the AD out of the sky". But let's say in some insane world only throwing people off building's is the only possible solution.
Don't use a Grey Warden to do it when you only have three. Even if somehow the plan wasn't criminally stupid, using Riordan to do it was stupid. Even if you think that normal troops can do it and you need a baddass, well, throwing Oghren or Zevran at it is still a better idea.
Riordan knew the measure of his abilities and was able to cripple the Arch-Demon to a point where it couldn't fly.
Duncan wanted to wait for the Orlesians or at least for the Redcliffe forces, but ultimately it was Cailan's & Loghain's decision and Duncan could have had no way of knowing Loghain's betrayal. Also, Ser Jory pulled his sword out first.
The Wardens in Legacy and DA:I on the other hand are presented as cartoonishly dumb. Allying with Tevinter to make a demon-army? The same Tevinter that created the Blight in the first place?
We're talking about hitting a bullet with another bullet. Unless Riordan's measure of his abilities included "flight", this plan was insane.
Duncan is an idiot because Ferelden doesn't matter. The role of the GWs isn't to save the hick backwater of Southern Thedas, it's to stop the blight. If Cailan is too stupid to follow the advice of the GWs, then Duncan shouldn't commit his forces. People want to argue there's some political dimension to staying in Ferelden, but that's idiotic. There's nothing more valuable in a blight than the life of a Grey Warden, especially a veteran. Leaving Ferelden to rot and going to Orlais, if it comes down to it, is the right choice over a suicidal plan.
As to Jory, you're confused. Here's how it went down:
Duncan murdered Jory to protect the secret of the Joining ritual.
As to the final point regarding Tevinter, I think you're showing a fundamental ignorance of Grey Warden history. Just who exactly do you think likely created their order? They use a blood magic ritual based on either archdemon or modified darkspawn blood to create a link to the blight, and this was done in the first blight were the only advanced magical nation was Tevinter. The GWs likely at one point used both demons and Tevinter blood magic to fight the 1st Blight.
The plan is stupid for a host of other reasons, including the fact that you could just bloody replace the GWs with more new recruits, but Tevinter isn't the weak link.
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