1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

There are lots of ways to get the AD out of the sky. The best one being "Don't attack the darkspawn horde without coming up with a plan on how to get the AD out of the sky". But let's say in some insane world only throwing people off building's is the only possible solution.

 

Don't use a Grey Warden to do it when you only have three. Even if somehow the plan wasn't criminally stupid, using Riordan to do it was stupid. Even if you think that normal troops can do it and you need a baddass, well, throwing Oghren or Zevran at it is still a better idea. 

While I grant you that this was a desperate, arguably doomed plan, I'm not going to criticize it further than that because I can't think of a better one.* (That it almost worked and ultimately came close enough to complete success as to be instrumental in saving Ferelden is a lesser concern, since I'm not sure I agree with the truism that "if it was stupid but it worked, it wasn't stupid.") Although I guess the point about using a Grey Warden being a suboptimal approach makes sense. Still: Riordan was alone, and he saw one shot at getting someone on its back. He had nobody else to use instead, and no guarantee that there'd be another such opportunity. Using himself also has the benefit that if he lands right, he has a chance to handle the Blight with no other sacrifice. (Though this ultimately doesn't happen.)

 

*Apart from leaving Ferelden to its fate, which is unlikely to go over well if you get caught trying it and try to explain it. It's also horribly amoral, but that's not necessarily enough to stop me.

[Il Divo]

Eh, Grey Wardens aren't exactly known for being the most honorable bunch. They're more of a "Victory at all costs" group. I could easily see Duncan withdrawing from Ferelden assuming Cailin or Loghain gave him enough problems. But it's really after Ostagar that I start raising my eyebrows at the Save Ferelden strategy.

[In Exile]

Eh, Grey Wardens aren't exactly known for being the most honorable bunch. They're more of a "Victory at all costs" group. I could easily see Duncan withdrawing from Ferelden assuming Cailin or Loghain gave him enough problems. But it's really after Ostagar that I start raising my eyebrows at the Save Ferelden strategy.

DGs WOG is that Duncan would have abandoned Ferelden if he lived.

[X Equestris]

There are lots of ways to get the AD out of the sky. The best one being "Don't attack the darkspawn horde without coming up with a plan on how to get the AD out of the sky". But let's say in some insane world only throwing people off building's is the only possible solution.
 
Don't use a Grey Warden to do it when you only have three. Even if somehow the plan wasn't criminally stupid, using Riordan to do it was stupid. Even if you think that normal troops can do it and you need a baddass, well, throwing Oghren or Zevran at it is still a better idea.

This brings up an interesting point. Up until after the Fourth Blight, the Wardens had their griffon riders to counter the Archdemon and any dragon thralls. The Fifth Blight was the first the Order would have faced without that key tool. So if it weren't for the Archdemon's overconfidence, Ferelden, and quite possibly the rest of Thedas, might have fallen under the Blight.

[Gold Dragon]

Also, The Warden's deaths at Ostagar was made so that the PC would be made Commander of the Grey of Ferelden.  Otherwise, we'd have played as Duncan.

[Vanth]

The destruction of the Grey Wardens in DA:I was to provide a foundation for the plot of DA4, where the Grey Wardens will be resurrected as the Gay Wardens with the player at their head. 

[In Exile]

Also, The Warden's deaths at Ostagar was made so that the PC would be made Commander of the Grey of Ferelden.  Otherwise, we'd have played as Duncan.

Riordan outranked you, and he called the shots. 

[DDJ]

Interesting.  I also think the Wardens will be pivotal to the plot and very likely The Warden returning.  As one person pointed out years ago, Warden plots with the hero being a Warden are limiting as they concentrate on darkspawn and nothing else setting aside the reason for their exile from Ferelden and the murder of the Divine for the moment.  I have a suspicion that this will be another full inquisition game with the return of both Hawke and the Warden - finally!  The Dragon Age series has unlimited potential, but I am going to miss Cassandra as a companion - we can't have the Divine running about with a blade after all, and since she was one of three candidates her future role is limiting.  Frankly I am of the belief that Mother Gisselle would be the best pick, and why Bioware ignored her is beyond me.  The choices offered really limited future games with the exception of Viv.

[Drix153]

I exiled the Wardens on the assumption it wasn't going to last forever. Then I read what that crier had to say about it at Skyhold... 

[Dr. rotinaj]

I didn't ban them because I didn't approve of their character assassination. Ever since DA2, BioWare has been taking a huge dump on the Wardens. Yes, the Wardens will do whatever it takes to win and they've stopped 5 Blights in that way, problem is that BioWare doesn't know how to convey this unless it's in the most-hamfisted way possible

 

LOL

 

How can you claim that Bioware has been trashing the Wardens since DA2? We barely saw actual Wardens in DAO and Awakening. Apart from Duncan, Riordan, Avernus, and Dryden, we don't see actual Wardens before DA2. And those aforementioned Wardens are pretty "do whatever it takes." The only other Wardens we see in DAO are the HoF and Alistair, but they're barely Wardens.

 

The HoF is a fresh recruit and Alistair is only senior by about a year. They pretty much have no instruction on being a Warden other than "do what it takes to kill darkspawn." They have a very small connection to the Grey Warden culture and thus next to no connection to this "Warden Character" that you claim is being "assassinated."

 

Even Amaranthine's Wardens were bad examples of real Grey Wardens because they were all new and they were recruited by someone very detached from the Order. 

[ThePhoenixKing]

LOL

 

How can you claim that Bioware has been trashing the Wardens since DA2? We barely saw actual Wardens in DAO and Awakening. Apart from Duncan, Riordan, Avernus, and Dryden, we don't see actual Wardens before DA2. And those aforementioned Wardens are pretty "do whatever it takes." The only other Wardens we see in DAO are the HoF and Alistair, but they're barely Wardens.

 

The HoF is a fresh recruit and Alistair is only senior by about a year. They pretty much have no instruction on being a Warden other than "do what it takes to kill darkspawn." They have a very small connection to the Grey Warden culture and thus next to no connection to this "Warden Character" that you claim is being "assassinated."

 

Even Amaranthine's Wardens were bad examples of real Grey Wardens because they were all new and they were recruited by someone very detached from the Order. 

 

Wow, No True Scotsman, much? The fact that the Hero of Ferelden is somewhat disconnected from the Warden chain of command in Origins does not make them any less a Warden. They took the oath, they went through the Joining, they kill darkspawn. They're Wardens. Blatantly shifting the goalposts so that any successful Warden in the franchise suddenly doesn't count as a member of the Order doesn't make the argument for exiling them in Inquisition any stronger, it just makes you look intellectually dishonest.

[Chuvvy]

They're one of three interesting factions in DA, need to keep them around. As one of the three is more or less ignored.

[robertthebard]

Wow, No True Scotsman, much? The fact that the Hero of Ferelden is somewhat disconnected from the Warden chain of command in Origins does not make them any less a Warden. They took the oath, they went through the Joining, they kill darkspawn. They're Wardens. Blatantly shifting the goalposts so that any successful Warden in the franchise suddenly doesn't count as a member of the Order doesn't make the argument for exiling them in Inquisition any stronger, it just makes you look intellectually dishonest.

Claiming that their character was assassinated in Inquisition does much the same thing, if we're only going to go by what we see in the games, doesn't it? Only you have to be really trying to be intellectually dishonest, because you have to ignore events that we have actually seen played out in Origins to claim character assassination. That would mean that they are doing something they'd never do, right? Except Sophia Dryden...

The point that you're glossing over in this is that we really don't know much at all about the Wardens. Our most intimate contact with them involved Duncan, Alistair, and Riordan.* Duncan dies at Ostagar, and we don't get much of a chance to discuss much with Riordan about how the Order really works, and Alistair is almost as much a nublette in the Order as we are, and thusly knows almost as little as we do. So just what did what we see in Inquisition do to conflict with what we know about what the Wardens will do when cornered? Summoning demons? Sorry, that predates Origins by a fair bit, a couple of centuries, if I remember correctly, which I may not, but the events that we see in ghost scenes took place before the Wardens were exiled from Ferelden. Or, more accurately, were part and parcel of what led them to be exiled in the first place.

*For those of us that haven't read the books.

[Aren]

With an old god in western approach? no thanks

[PapaCharlie9]

Exile is like spitting on a drowning man. Make that drowning clan.

 

I have no problem with exile, they've been exiled before, they've come back from worse. Exile also keeps more of them alive, if the War Table missions that wipe the remnants out if you don't exile them are to be believed.

 

Exile is nothing compared to the massacre and reduction in force the Wardens suffer due to the massive con-job Cory and his minions put over on the Order as a whole.

 

Shame on them for being so easily duped? Maybe -- maybe not. The Calling might make anyone lose their common sense.

 

They only got what they deserved, the self-serving arrogant battards[sic]? Maybe -- maybe not. Some of them may have gone off the rails, but why tar the entire Order with the same brush? They weren't all taken in (Stroud/Allistair/Loghain, HoF, there must have been more).

 

The Fifth Blight was only ten years ago, for Maker's sake. Did everyone forget already? Do you really want to accelerate the decline of the Order and face the next Blight with no Circle, no Chantry, no Templars, and a diminished Orlais? You going to bet the world on the Inquisition?

[robertthebard]

Exile is like spitting on a drowning man. Make that drowning clan.
 
I have no problem with exile, they've been exiled before, they've come back from worse. Exile also keeps more of them alive, if the War Table missions that wipe the remnants out if you don't exile them are to be believed.
 
Exile is nothing compared to the massacre and reduction in force the Wardens suffer due to the massive con-job Cory and his minions put over on the Order as a whole.
 
Shame on them for being so easily duped? Maybe -- maybe not. The Calling might make anyone lose their common sense.
 
They only got what they deserved, the self-serving arrogant battards[sic]? Maybe -- maybe not. Some of them may have gone off the rails, but why tar the entire Order with the same brush? They weren't all taken in (Stroud/Allistair/Loghain, HoF, there must have been more).
 
The Fifth Blight was only ten years ago, for Maker's sake. Did everyone forget already? Do you really want to accelerate the decline of the Order and face the next Blight with no Circle, no Chantry, no Templars, and a diminished Orlais? You going to bet the world on the Inquisition?

All things considered, why not? Those of us that played Origins know how that worked out, and it would have been even easier if everyone weren't so busy power struggling. Out of curiosity, however, just where do you think they went, Mars? They have a nice little fortress, or maybe not so little, in the Anderfels, where the Order is based. Send 'em back to their base to train new recruits, and evidently some older veterans, and be done with it.

Alternatively, cope with the fear of an imminent Blight, even though we've seen nothing to indicate that there is one brewing, and let them stay. Guess what? You're right either way, because at the end of the quest, it's your single player campaign that's affected one way or the other. There is no "right" way to handle it, other than the way the Inquisitor of the moment chooses to deal with it. Whether you or I approve matters a damn, because their decision will not adversely affect your decision, or mine. This whole thread is much ado about nothing, at the end of the day, branching so far into head canon of what's going to happen at times as to be ridiculous. Keep 'em, or send 'em packing, as it pleases you. Better yet, do one on one playthrough, and then do the other on the next, which is what I did the first two times, and see if the world ends because you did or didn't send the Wardens to their private fortress.

[Dr. rotinaj]

Wow, No True Scotsman, much? The fact that the Hero of Ferelden is somewhat disconnected from the Warden chain of command in Origins does not make them any less a Warden. They took the oath, they went through the Joining, they kill darkspawn. They're Wardens. Blatantly shifting the goalposts so that any successful Warden in the franchise suddenly doesn't count as a member of the Order doesn't make the argument for exiling them in Inquisition any stronger, it just makes you look intellectually dishonest.

 

In a completely technical sense, the HoF and Alistair are Wardens. But when we're talking about the alleged character assassination of the Wardens we can't complain that DA2 and DAI's Wardens are different from HoF/Alistair. Simply put, they come from completely different cultures. They're noobs not veterans and they haven't lived their lives as Wardens with other Wardens. Up until the attack on Denerim, all they know about Wardenhood is "sense darkspawn, kill darkspawn, kill archdemon." They are rarely see how serious the Wardens are when they say "Do whatever it takes." So it would be very unfair to use them as an example of "what Wardens were like."

 

Why don't we just take a look at the other Wardens in the series and see if there's a pattern

 

Duncan: Conscripts HoF (possibly against will) and murders Jory

Riordan: Brings down archdemon in a suicidal attack

Dryden: Tried to overthrow the king of Fereldan (Wardens aren't allowed to interfere in politics) and ordered Avernus to summon demons to help them fight the kings soldiers.

Avernus: A blood mage who performed unethical experiments

First Warden: Only reason he cared about Amaranthine is because Wardens owning land set a precedent

Larius: Threatened to kill Leandra to force Malcolm into a blood ritual to seal Corypheus

Janeka: Tries to control Corypheus to end the Blights

Clarel: tries to summon a demon army to kill the Old Gods to end the Blights

 

They all do some pretty shady things "to fight the Blight." You say that I'm separating the successful Wardens from the rest of the Order. Maybe the reason that they're successful is because they aren't like other Wardens.

 

The character assassination of the Wardens is a myth. We've always been told that the Wardens do whatever it takes to stop the darkspawn but we barely saw it. Now we're finally seeing it. It's just like the Dalish, in DAO we heard they could be racist and ignorant to outsiders and other elves but we barely saw that.Then along comes DA2 and DAI and now we see it.

 

Honestly though, can anyone honestly expect only good things to come from a group that:

-has many ex-criminals in its ranks

-does "whatever it takes"

-decides what "whatever it takes" means

-is extremely secretive about everything, including the secret to saving the world from the Blight

-completely unregulated

-claims to be against political interference but interferes anyway on many occasions

 

It was only a matter of time before something crazy happened. So I'll exile them until they become more reliable.

[KCMeredith]

Riordan outranked you, and he called the shots. 

Riordan was such a badass, jumping on the archdemon and just hacking away. Shame he didn't make it.

 

@Topic: I exiled them, I actually wanted to execute all of them but couldn't. Zero tolerance for blood magic, no matter how important you are.

[PapaCharlie9]

All things considered, why not? Those of us that played Origins know how that worked out, and it would have been even easier if everyone weren't so busy power struggling. Out of curiosity, however, just where do you think they went, Mars? They have a nice little fortress, or maybe not so little, in the Anderfels, where the Order is based. 

One word: Epilogue.

[PapaCharlie9]

The character assassination of the Wardens is a myth. We've always been told that the Wardens do whatever it takes to stop the darkspawn but we barely saw it. Now we're finally seeing it. It's just like the Dalish, in DAO we heard they could be racist and ignorant to outsiders and other elves but we barely saw that.Then along comes DA2 and DAI and now we see it.
 
Honestly though, can anyone honestly expect only good things to come from a group that:
-has many ex-criminals in its ranks
-does "whatever it takes"
-decides what "whatever it takes" means
-is extremely secretive about everything, including the secret to saving the world from the Blight
-completely unregulated
-claims to be against political interference but interferes anyway on many occasions
 
It was only a matter of time before something crazy happened. So I'll exile them until they become more reliable.

 
I completely agree, but that's what's so great about the Wardens. They are the Dirty Dozen, the Dark Knight, and the Suicide Squad all rolled into one. Fantastic material for drama and tragedy.
 
It's not character assassination that bothers me -- Orlais and Fereldan don't need to make stuff up, the Wardens have done bad, bad things. It's taking such a great set of tragic heroes (or anti-heroes, if you prefer) off the stage that I hate with a passion. They won't have the Wardens to kick around anymore -- what??
 
I mean, how credible is a sequal going to be if the Wardens are back in force and ascendant? Weisshaupt finally pulled its head out of its posterior and did some kind of recruitment campaign by rounding up all the ronin Templars and mages and turning them into Wardens? Please.
 
I think any reading of DA:I, particularly the Epilogue, that doesn't have the Order fading away into impotence to be a bit optimistic, to put it mildly. I think Adamant was a mortal blow, as written. It didn't have to be written that way (see What one plot point would you change and how), but I have a hard time finding a believable interpretation that it wasn't.

[Almostfaceman]

The Wardens are a band-aid. They utilize forces they don't understand for survival. The Blight is not understood. The Wardens have done a good job at saving the world - five times now. But they've done a poor job at researching a better solution.

 

I tend not to exile them, because the end of the world. When you have the end of the world, then there's nothing else. So to prevent the end of the world, you need something to save the world. I'm not going to throw out the current solution (even if it is a poor band aid) until we have another solution.

 

The story is already heading in that direction. The band aid is either not going to be needed at all or there's going to be a new solution. The Blight is being studied in Inquisition. It's Darkspawn and Red Lyrium and Elder Gods. It's getting smarter, utilizing the Band Aid to try and take over or end the world. That's right, Coryphypants is the Blight coming at Thedas with a brain. Smart darkspawn had already been hinted at with the Architect and the Alpha's.

 

So if the Hero survives, he's investigating the Blight, the Calling. Dagna is investigating. Bianca is investigating. More and more is being understood.

 

Not one single organization is perfect. Yes the band aid (the Wardens) almost get circumvented by the Blight. But you still need the band aid. You still need the Wardens. NOBODY knows when the next Blight is coming and where. You don't throw out something so essential just because it fucks up. You fix it, you watch it. You still use it. And you try to find a replacement in the meantime.

[Uccio]

Side note: Inquisition can´t study blight, only people who can study blight are the Wardens. Anyone else risk getting infected.

[Almostfaceman]

Side note: Inquisition can´t study blight, only people who can study blight are the Wardens. Anyone else risk getting infected.

 

Doesn't seem to be true, since Bianca studied the Red Lyrium (hence the Blight). Dagna does as well, in a way, when studying Samson's armor. Plus, you have Coryphypants, who is/was one of the originators of the Blight. Further study into his past may reveal some interesting things.

[robertthebard]

One word: Epilogue.

Oh, you mean where it says that contact was lost? So, tell me then, what exactly is happening there, since you seem to know? Because for me, that's sort of vague. What if, for example, they simply got tired of dealing with outsiders and cut off communication of their own accord? Can you, 100% say that this isn't what happened? I know I can't say that it did, but that's the rub, innit? We just don't know, so, until we do, we don't know if it's a good thing, a bad thing or nothing, do we?

[PapaCharlie9]

Oh, you mean where it says that contact was lost? So, tell me then, what exactly is happening there, since you seem to know? Because for me, that's sort of vague. What if, for example, they simply got tired of dealing with outsiders and cut off communication of their own accord? Can you, 100% say that this isn't what happened? I know I can't say that it did, but that's the rub, innit? We just don't know, so, until we do, we don't know if it's a good thing, a bad thing or nothing, do we?

You are right, of course. I don't know. Nobody does. But I've yet to hear an interpretation that is consistent with the theme of DA:I (every institution crippled or destroyed, leaving the vacuum for the Inquisition to step into) and that ends up with some kind of positive outcome, without stretching credulity. In my humble opinion, if that wasn't clear before, the Epilogue reads sinister to me, not hopeful, in the context of everything else that has gone on before.