1570 réponses à ce sujet

[FALCONGTX]

Then how does that village come under attack if we keep the Wardens? Is it in the Deep Roads? Facts from fantasy here, there are not enough Wardens on Thedas to do as you suggest.

 

Cause again you are ignoring things mostly, you can go in Empris before going to Adamant, the level set as it is(on time line) before Adamant and doing it won't change the level. You are playing the not reading the book so "gameplay before lore" - i am tired of using this actually.

 

Perhaps you're confused as to where the darkspawn and dwarves all live? In the Deep Roads, both factions live there, and both factions war constantly. This got more than a passing mention in Origins.

 

No i am not confused at all. We were speaking about surface - because that's where GW mostly operate, you we suggesting LotD as substitute to GW that's no do since on surface there is no LotD equivalent on surface(without GW) - and never will be since there no need in them unlike from deep roads.
 

 

Really? What about all the Darkspawn we fought in the Exalted Plains, or the Storm Coast? How many companions died to the taint, or became ghouls

 

Man did you even bothered to read my post?  

 

I'm not ignoring anything, in fact, I brought the treaties up. They are referred to as "ancient". This means that they are very old, and likely predate the Wardens being exiled from Ferelden. How can I bringing them up equate I'm ignoring them? What's got you flustered here, apparently, is that they are used to "force" non Wardens into fighting against darkspawn, and have been used for that purpose since, and this is speculation on my part, after the first blight.

 

Hardly that's even possible since only blight that were on lands of Ferelden is fifth one, it is more proves that Wardens fight DS anywhere they can.
 

The gameplay you reference for your example is listed as being knocked unconscious, in game.

You mean same way Leliana was "knocked unconscious" in urn of sacred ahes? Yep that's the way it is work with taint all companions fight DS they just do not contact with taint. Again that's not possible move for factions.
 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Funny how the Val Gamord is mentioned seeing as how it is wiped out if you exiled the Wardens but can be saved if you keep them

[Sunnie]

You forgot one detail: There is no where in Thedas that we are aware of that is 100 years of travel time to anywhere else in Thedas. So keeping them, exiling them, it's all the same. Irony: You keep them, then accidentally kill them on the war table, is Thedas now doomed? You've killed all the Wardens, in your region, the ones you feel it is mandatory to keep, and then killed them. So is Thedas now doomed?

I didn't forget any detail. In ALL of my play-throughs, the Southern Wardens all thrive, they are not lost in the war table mission series, by the end of it they have only taken a few loses. I've heard that someone can make all the wrong choices and get them wiped out, but it never happens for me. I'm still at the point where having them within the Inquisition is the safer and more logical thing to do than throw a hissy fit and exile them to a place 3 months march away.

Besides, I want to help the Wardens, and they need help, sounds like a win-win to me.

[Balek-Vriege]

There's a lot of caveats and nuance involved.

 

The basic difference is this:

 

The short term, logical, and realistic choice would be to exile them for their own safety and to keep the Inquisition robust vs. Corypheus.  However, exiling them from Southern Thedas leaves a big vacuum of protection and knowledge that can be used against Darkspawn (including Corypheus).

 

The long term idealistic choice is to recruit them, reform them and micromanage their exposure to Corypheus, with a huge risk of them seriously compromising the Inquisition's efforts.  However, you make sure Wardens will still exist as a force and are not banned in Southern Thedas.

 

Then it gets more complicated:

 

If you leave Hawke behind and the Southern Wardens still have a leader, then the game appears to suggest that they have enough cohesion to be exiled.  Note Varric approves of them being exiled in this instance and disapproves if you recruit.

 

If you leave the Warden behind and the Southern Wardens don't have a leader, then the game appears to suggest that these Wardens will be left totally demoralized and in chaos.  Note Varric disapproves if you exile them and approves if you recruit them.

 

Many don't think about it, but there's just as much risk sending them away to the North as there is recruiting them.  A leaderless Wardens could be possessed/exploited just as easily as recruited Wardens and cause trouble for the Inquisition.  Maybe even more so.

 

Then metagaming gets involved:

 

If you manage the Wardens correctly there's no downside to not exiling them.  Wardens never turn on you under the influence of Corypheus.  Under your leadership they become revitalized and a potent ally (if you manage them correctly).  You redeem their reputation in Southern Thedas if they live.  The epilogue alludes to the reformed Wardens becoming more open and altruistic too.  They return to the North on their own timetable and in a great position.

 

If you don't manage them well and get them all/mostly killed, you might as well send them all packing north.

 

If you did send them all packing, you have absolutely no control on what they become or what they represent when they get back to Weisshaupt.  Regardless of recruiting them or not, the Southern Wardens may be a lot more cautious of dark magic and less secretive after the events of DAI.

 

If Weisshaupt is or has always been involved in questionable practices to defeat the Darkspawn and the Blights (99% sure they are. I metagamed my own HoF as eventually being a Clarel/Avernus type), this may be what causes a probable civil war.

 

Much like the schism in the Fallout universe between the Eastern and Western versions of the Brotherhood of Steel and their visions for the organization.

 

Initially in my first playthrough, without metagame knowledge, I exiled the Wardens.  The cause against Corypheus was more important to me than the Wardens.  I even argued early on in this thread against recruitment.

 

The rest of my playthroughs were all recruiting the Wardens.  Also I get to "stick it" to Solas and show that he's not always right.  Showing him that it's possible to be idealistic, wise and successfully strategic with them.  Instead of following his cynical pragmatism. 

 

 

[robertthebard]

Cause again you are ignoring things mostly, you can go in Empris before going to Adamant, the level set as it is(on time line) before Adamant and doing it won't change the level. You are playing the not reading the book so "gameplay before lore" - i am tired of using this actually.

The gameplay is the lore, it's a game. How hard is that to figure out? Here's the deal: Wardens fight darkspawn, they don't contain them in the deep roads; they don't have the manpower to even begin to undertake that.
 
 

No i am not confused at all. We were speaking about surface - because that's where GW mostly operate, you we suggesting LotD as substitute to GW that's no do since on surface there is no LotD equivalent on surface(without GW) - and never will be since there no need in them unlike from deep roads.

 
Yes, you are confused, and it's easy to see how. You see, I pointed out that the Wardens don't have the manpower to keep the dark spawn from coming to the surface, and pointed out that even with the dwarves fighting them every day, dark spawn are still getting to the surface. Contrary to what you seem to think here, that the deep roads aren't much bigger than what we've seen so far, they are much bigger than you have imagined. I don't remember if it was in Origins, or DA II, but it was commented that they covered all of Thedas at one time. That's on the magnitude of thousands of times bigger than anything we've seen, combined. 
 

Man did you even bothered to read my post?  
 
 
Hardly that's even possible since only blight that were on lands of Ferelden is fifth one, it is more proves that Wardens fight DS anywhere they can.
 
You mean same way Leliana was "knocked unconscious" in urn of sacred ahes? Yep that's the way it is work with taint all companions fight DS they just do not contact with taint. Again that's not possible move for factions.

Your dispute with the game mechanics is cute and all, but also irrelevant. If you're looking for permadeath, perhaps start a thread in Suggestions and Feedback? However, in regard to the treaties, I didn't come up with the name Ancient Treaties, that's how they are referred to in Origins. What do they do? They give the Wardens the right to demand help during a blight. Ancient does not equal 10 years. ancient Feel free to argue with the dictionary about what it means, and, since you're so convinced I'm wrong about when they were initially penned, feel free to provide some links to the appropriate codex entries. I can't provide a link to my speculation, since, as I said, it was a guess on my part. However, since the Wilds had pretty much reclaimed the outpost, I'd say it was more than a few years back...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The gameplay is the lore, it's a game.

Uh, no. There are also books, and the Codex. This argument simply does not work.

[robertthebard]

Uh, no. There are also books, and the Codex. This argument simply does not work.

So, which of the books overrides your save games? I know none of them override mine. Alistair is not King, he's dead, so he can't be off patrolling the countryside with Isabela, or whatever it is he's off doing in the book(s) he's off doing it in. Is there some bleed over, certainly the circumstances in Orlais are? But where do the codex entries come from? Oh yes, the game world, every single one of them, even the ones that predate the game, or occur between them are gathered in the game. So sorry, but yes. Unless you can explain how things garnered whilst playing the game don't count as game play? This will be interesting, I'll be over here.

[GoldenGail3]

I just don't want to exile my HOF, I really , really don't, and Carel was a moren for trusting a Magister In the first place. So yeah, I never really have expelled the GW from Thedas so far.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So, which of the books overrides your save games? I know none of them override mine. Alistair is not King, he's dead, so he can't be off patrolling the countryside with Isabela, or whatever it is he's off doing in the book(s) he's off doing it in. Is there some bleed over, certainly the circumstances in Orlais are? But where do the codex entries come from? Oh yes, the game world, every single one of them, even the ones that predate the game, or occur between them are gathered in the game. So sorry, but yes. Unless you can explain how things garnered whilst playing the game don't count as game play? This will be interesting, I'll be over here.

I have absolutely no idea what this post is meant to accomplish, and the second last sentence doesn't even resemble what I'm trying to say.

[robertthebard]

I have absolutely no idea what this post is meant to accomplish, and the second last sentence doesn't even resemble what I'm trying to say.

Because what you're trying to say is nonsensical? Gameplay and lore are not separate entities, events in the game, such as ending the 5th blight, are part of the lore. However: The DR isn't part of the lore for every game. Why? Because your gameplay decision, if you chose to make it, doesn't affect my gameplay decisions. Therefore, the lore that the Keep has to work with is different in the two world states, all because of gameplay. The only character that 100% dies to the taint in DA II is Wesley. It's plot driven, and has to happen. The sibling can, but it is not canon that they do. Why? Gameplay. None of the companions in DA O die to the taint. This is canon, however, some of them can die, even if Leliana's is overturned by the Makers. None of this is canon to the series, since the Inquisition can hear from Zevran, unless you killed him, or didn't recruit him. I'm not sure on the latter, because I've never not recruited him, but if he's dead, I'm sure you won't be hearing from him...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Because what you're trying to say is nonsensical? Gameplay and lore are not separate entities, events in the game, such as ending the 5th blight, are part of the lore. However: The DR isn't part of the lore for every game. Why? Because your gameplay decision, if you chose to make it, doesn't affect my gameplay decisions. Therefore, the lore that the Keep has to work with is different in the two world states, all because of gameplay. The only character that 100% dies to the taint in DA II is Wesley. It's plot driven, and has to happen. The sibling can, but it is not canon that they do. Why? Gameplay. None of the companions in DA O die to the taint. This is canon, however, some of them can die, even if Leliana's is overturned by the Makers. None of this is canon to the series, since the Inquisition can hear from Zevran, unless you killed him, or didn't recruit him. I'm not sure on the latter, because I've never not recruited him, but if he's dead, I'm sure you won't be hearing from him...

It's a little hard to follow your argument due to none of this having anything to do with the basic idea of Gameplay/Story Segregation. What I'm trying to say is that the gameplay flatly contradicts rest of the lore in some places, including the companions never getting Blighted except when plot demands and DA2's maleficarum apparently summoning abominations from the ground and turning Templars into them despite turning Templars into abominations being by definition impossible. (Not to mention the way most abominations in the game fight: in the lore, Connor and Uldred are typical of abominations in that they use both physical force and magic, whereas in the game they're atypical in that most abominations are pure brawlers.) Without commenting on the basic point you were trying to support in the first place (partially since I've forgotten what it is) the idea that everything we see in the game is true to the way the lore isn't necessarily a valid one.

[robertthebard]

It's a little hard to follow your argument due to none of this having anything to do with the basic idea of Gameplay/Story Segregation. What I'm trying to say is that the gameplay flatly contradicts rest of the lore in some places, including the companions never getting Blighted except when plot demands and DA2's maleficarum apparently summoning abominations from the ground and turning Templars into them despite turning Templars into abominations being by definition impossible. (Not to mention the way most abominations in the game fight: in the lore, Connor and Uldred are typical of abominations in that they use both physical force and magic, whereas in the game they're atypical in that most abominations are pure brawlers.) Without commenting on the basic point you were trying to support in the first place (partially since I've forgotten what it is) the idea that everything we see in the game is true to the way the lore isn't necessarily a valid one.

Deviations from are not the same as "it doesn't apply". The fact is, even though this is about 4 million miles off topic, except maybe in a round about way, that some of us don't get our lore from anything but gameplay. Yes, there are cases of plot armor, however, that doesn't change the fact that Thedas is still here, to veer back to the topic at hand, despite not having Wardens at all for a century during the First Blight. Which is, I believe, where this tangent started. The person I was discussing this point with made the claim that anyone fighting the darkspawn that's not a Warden is doomed.

The treaties are established in the lore, from DA O to Inquisition, and indicate that while people will become infected, they will be fighting darkspawn during a Blight, and that, as I pointed out to the confusion of the initial person I was on with, the dwarves fight darkspawn on a daily basis, and while they are reduced, they are not all ghouls, or extinct, as far as we know at this time. This is both gameplay and lore, and isn't divisible by "but lore says", because lore says that people that fight darkspawn can be infected, and that people that are not Wardens will be fighting darkspawn during a blight, via the treaties. So how do we separate these facts to claim that one is based entirely on gameplay, and the other on lore, which was the point to the post you snipped my comment out of to call BS.

[guntar74]

I always spare them. I like wardens, and u never know when you might need some. Also it lets Loghain be the highest ranking in that group if he is alive. So I like to think I have somebody in charge i can trust for whatever comes next(the going silent mystery)

It also lets me send the mayor of crestwood to become a warden as well as Blackwall(if they survive the joining). I think Blackwall and Loghain would do some good. And the quest chain is also pretty solid on the war table.

[Chrissamuel]

I always let the Wardens stay for a number of reasons.

 

1. It takes more than one Warden to end a Blight like some people have said. True only one is needed to kill the Archdemon but as is hinted in Last Flight and Origins the Archdemon would take measures to kill the wardens before it could be slain.

 

2. If the Wardens were exiled to Weisshaupt and one was still under Corypheus' control there is a possibility of them using blood magic to control the First Warden and have all Wardens attack the Inquisition. At least in Skyhold they could be watched.

 

3. In spite of what they had done the Wardens were still immensely respected by the Dwarves and having them as allies could bring greater support from Orzammar and Kal Sharok.

 

4. Wardens are considered the greatest warriors in Thedas and could be excellent for training the Inquisition soldiers.

 

5. It was clear that Corypheus used blood magic to control some Warden mages so did he do that to those that took part in his ritual to kill the Divine?

[DDJ]

That last is an excellent question.  Did Corypheus control the Wardens to kill the Divine and hundreds of others - thousands if Varric is correct.  The Wardens will do anything to stop the blight.  I repeat, anything, which is the game's wording, not mine.  So, if killing the Divine accomplishes that goal, they would do it.  Why they were foolish enough to trust anything out of Tevinter or a darkspawn is beyond me however.  Possibly they viewed him as the lesser of two evils who could be double crossed later.  Of course anything is possible and not being particularly fond of the Wardens in the first place I probably am not the best judge.  Some of their crimes are not excusable under the "greater good" bit, and there are a ton of these crimes in the lore.  Fortunately for them they are protected by plot armor.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That last is an excellent question.  Did Corypheus control the Wardens to kill the Divine and hundreds of others - thousands if Varric is correct.  The Wardens will do anything to stop the blight.  I repeat, anything, which is the game's wording, not mine.  So, if killing the Divine accomplishes that goal, they would do it.  Why they were foolish enough to trust anything out of Tevinter or a darkspawn is beyond me however.  Possibly they viewed him as the lesser of two evils who could be double crossed later.  Of course anything is possible and not being particularly fond of the Wardens in the first place I probably am not the best judge.  Some of their crimes are not excusable under the "greater good" bit, and there are a ton of these crimes in the lore.  Fortunately for them they are protected by plot armor.

Given that he is visibly a darkspawn, I can only assume the Wardens who directly saw him must have been controlled. Using him to accomplish a greater goal is something some Wardens could do, theoretically, but most Wardens apparently don't from the general outrage when you spare the Architect. Besides which what greater goal would he sell them that justifies killing the Divine?

[Qun00]

Try to imagine what would've happened to Ferelden if King Maric hadn't lifted the Grey Wardens exile.

No, it's a terrible idea.

[DDJ]

That is a fair point, but apparently the greater goal was to end all blights forever.  That is the only real goal that the Wardens seem to have and it seems to blind them in spots.  Now that I think of it, this Warden oath they talk about - the one HoF never takes in DAO might have some kind of geis in it that forces them to think in certain ways.  Hmmm?

[Tidus]

In DA:O we got lucky and ended the blight with just two wardens the third was killed before the actual battle and depending on the story line followed one get killed making the final blow to the AD. What would have happen if all three was killed before reaching the AD? That was a higher possibility then most think since there was still hundreds of Darkspawn still in the battle. 

 

In my games I kill Loghain for his crimes and do Morrigan's DR. My city Elf decided dying for Shems  means very little since nothing had changed between the two races and the ugly fact Loghain sold his family and friends into slavery help him in making his final decision on rather or not to do the DR..

 

It is a mistake to exile the wardens since there is two more blights in the future.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That is a fair point, but apparently the greater goal was to end all blights forever.  That is the only real goal that the Wardens seem to have and it seems to blind them in spots.  Now that I think of it, this Warden oath they talk about - the one HoF never takes in DAO might have some kind of geis in it that forces them to think in certain ways.  Hmmm?

Erimond managed to persuade Clarel that that was the goal because the horrible thing she did could credibly lead there. And when she sees that Erimond's ally is a Blighted dragon that she almost certainly mistakes for an Archdemon, Erimond's deception goes out the window and she comes impressively close to killing him. The two reasons I think the Wardens who helped kill the Divine were controlled are that A: killing the Divine does not credibly help the cause of ending all the Blights forever and B: they knew damn well they were helping a darkspawn.

 

As for the Warden oath having a geas in it, the problem is that Stroud and Alistair are perfectly free not to think in those ways as demonstrated by their rebellion against Clarel. Not to mention the number of Wardens that refuse to side with the Architect in The Calling; if there is a geas forcing them to think alike, either all of them would have joined him or Utha wouldn't. Oh, and Larius and Janeka's disagreement, too. If there was a geas, you'd expect that either all of the Wardens would be willing to use Corypheus the way you propose the Wardens the Divine was killed by thought they were (under your interpretation) or Janeka wouldn't.

[Rekkampum]

No one is better equipped to fight Darkspawn than a Grey Warden, so minus the incompetence the Order has faced, they nonetheless remain a very important force in ensuring the protection of Thedas' populations.

[DDJ]

That is a fair point.  Still the murder of hundred by the Wardens is highly disturbing.

[In Exile]

Those are the only times we see it. There's a soldier at Ostagar who heavily implies it's happening offscreen with his line "If you get their blood on you you might as well just slit your throat," and there's supposed to be cases of people being Tainted on the surface in the Anderfels, since the darkspawn that participated in the Blight there were never really irradicated. Not to mention you forgot one of the "drive the point home" plot points in Inquisition that you see if you recruit the mages. (Felix Alexius.)

DA can't decide how transmissible the blight is but it can't be as easily transmitted as you say. That would have absolutely resulted in extinction as a result of the first blight (because it also poisons the land, cf. the Western Approach).

[In Exile]

So, moving past all the circular supposition and postulation there are but only a few facts.

• Anyone can kill darkspawn
• Wardens are only required to kill an Archdemon
• There were 7 Old Gods (Named Dragons worshiped by Tevinter), they are corrupted into Archdemons and cause a blight
• There have been 5 blights
• There are still 2 sleeping Old Gods left, IOW, 2 more blights to come.

SO, with the facts, its easy to see that exiling the southern Wardens would be a huge mistake should another blight occur. Keeping them within the Inquisition gives us the opportunity to fix things that are wrong with the order, and theres quite a bit that needs changed.

We don't actually know that 2 is true. We know that becoming a GW is one way of keeping the AD from respawning ala Corypheus. But we also know that a being like Corypheus can't be killed by GWs. So it's not clear the AD is the main threat.

In fact, DAA proves the opposite: an awakening series of darkspawn can by themselves cause a semi-blight.

This isn't an argument against the GWs per se. Just pointing out the facts, as you say.

But more to the point it's not that only a GW can kill the AD. It's that only someone who's taken part in the Joining can kill the AD. That's not the same thing. The GWs as an order are irrelevant. Their knowledge is relevant. And their obsession with keeping it secret is what endangers Thedas. This choice is the best example. The Inquisitor - without metagaming - can't know what dangers would flow from exiling the GWs because they keep it all a secret!

[robertthebard]

We don't actually know that 2 is true. We know that becoming a GW is one way of keeping the AD from respawning ala Corypheus. But we also know that a being like Corypheus can't be killed by GWs. So it's not clear the AD is the main threat.

In fact, DAA proves the opposite: an awakening series of darkspawn can by themselves cause a semi-blight.

This isn't an argument against the GWs per se. Just pointing out the facts, as you say.

But more to the point it's not that only a GW can kill the AD. It's that only someone who's taken part in the Joining can kill the AD. That's not the same thing. The GWs as an order are irrelevant. Their knowledge is relevant. And their obsession with keeping it secret is what endangers Thedas. This choice is the best example. The Inquisitor - without metagaming - can't know what dangers would flow from exiling the GWs because they keep it all a secret!

Actually, 2 is completely true, and it is completely explained in Origins: If the killing blow is not struck by a Warden, the soul finds the nearest tainted creature to jump into. Since there's a horde of darkspawn around, that's plenty of things to jump to, and is the reason the First Blight lasted as long as it did. There were no Wardens to end the AD. Cory's ability being similar is discussed in DA I, but it is not the same as an AD. He invested a part of himself into the dragon, just as Flemeth invested a part of herself into the amulet that Hawke brings to the Dalish in DA 2.