1570 réponses à ce sujet

[prosthetic soul]

Because I don't like to sabotage my romance with Cassandra. 

 

There.  Just saved this thread about 50000 words worth of arguing and debate. 

[GoldenGail3]

Because I don't like to sabotage my romance with Cassandra. 
 
There.  Just saved this thread about 50000 words worth of arguing and debate.

I thought she liked it when you banished the Wardens? And my Cassanda romance allied with the GW. He's a Warden fanboy to be hoenst, although he doesn't like to admit it.

[Gold Dragon]

I thought she liked it when you banished the Wardens? And my Cassanda romance allied with the GW. He's a Warden fanboy to be hoenst, although he doesn't like to admit it.

 

Cassandra Disapproves of the Wardens joining the Inquisition, and greatly approves of them being banished.  The decision has no effect on Romance, however.  Unless approval gets TOO low.

[GoldenGail3]

Cassandra Disapproves of the Wardens joining the Inquisition, and greatly approves of them being banished.  The decision has no effect on Romance, however.  Unless approval gets TOO low.

Yeah I know. I'm a Casssandra romacer here. I've done her romace twice and I never banished the Wardens or got her disapproval state.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

There.  Just saved this thread about 50000 words worth of arguing and debate. 

Well, that did less to stop us debating than you thought it would.

[kimgoold]

As far as I'm concerned the blame begins and ends with Clarel. The Warden members inability to question just Dumb orders and leaders acting suspect are really equally to blame as well. It is also silly when you take into account that older wardens hearing the calling are expected to go to the deep roads, and Clarel a senior warden should not have been in command because she was more susceptible because of her age (she should have stepped down). In DAO dlc wardens keep codex's mention another leader being forced to step down from command because he had become irrational.

 

I got the impression thru codex's that Clarel resented the HoF's ending the blight; Clarel saw her chance for glory going to another a Ferelden and I think that really chaffed.

[kimgoold]

Yeah I know. I'm a Casssandra romacer here. I've done her romace twice and I never banished the Wardens or got her disapproval state.

That always annoyed me frankly, she's all for giving the Seekers another chance but no such clemency for the Wardens. 

[GoldenGail3]

That always annoyed me frankly, she's all for giving the Seekers another chance but no such clemency for the Wardens. 

I know   it annoys me too.

[Dabrikishaw]

Wow, this thread is a year old and still generating discussion.

[DraftiestTrash]

My Inquisitor knew little about the Wardens the most knowledge he got from them was when he scouted the Storm Coast looking for Wardens, and most of the Crap from Mr. "Warden" Blackwall. In the end he realized it was mainly from poor leadership and zealot Wardens that caused the most harm within themselves to be corrupted, also the assisstance he recieved from Warden Jean-Marc Stroud and his eventual sacrificing allowed the Inquisitor to try helping the Grey Wardens into the light once again.

[Dabrikishaw]

Actually I'm wondering something. With the Inquisition gone after Trespasser would the Warden exile still stand? I don't exile them but I'm asking for opinions here.

[DDJ]

These are some excellent points.  I suspect that their exile might have ended with the Inquisition's demise, but considering who and how many the publicly murdered under the influence of C or no, a far tighter rein would have been put on them.  Justinia was apparently very well loved, and knowing that they were involved will put them under suspicion for many years.  Their right of conscription might have been invalidated for example.  People might demand to know why only they can kill Archdemons and about their secret and at times murderous joinings.  Any organization dedicated to any single goal is very dangerous due to the blinders they have on.  The end justifies the means it is said, but probably only to them.  The victims and their families have a different view.

 

I lay the blame on Clarel for the moment anyway.  I considered Cassandra's support of the Seekers as well, but in the end I came down on her side.  No seeker was involved in the death of Justinia for example.  No seeker took up arms against Thedas.  Yes, some did lead the Templars into the Mage - Templar War, but these were the minority betrayed by their own leader who wants to destroy the world.  Nor did the Seekers decide to raise an army of demons.  Their one dimensional blindness led them astray, but following Clarel's madness when she raised the plan cannot be ignored.  They did not need to go along with it.  The plan was madness, and the Wardens' willing cooperation with it speaks volumes about them.  The Seekers on the other hand were also betrayed far more cleverly, but they never agreed to raise demon armies or murdered hundreds to achieve their goals.  For my money they deserved a chance at redemption while the Wardens at best need a far tighter leash.

[In Exile]

As far as I'm concerned the blame begins and ends with Clarel. The Warden members inability to question just Dumb orders and leaders acting suspect are really equally to blame as well. It is also silly when you take into account that older wardens hearing the calling are expected to go to the deep roads, and Clarel a senior warden should not have been in command because she was more susceptible because of her age (she should have stepped down). In DAO dlc wardens keep codex's mention another leader being forced to step down from command because he had become irrational.

 

I got the impression thru codex's that Clarel resented the HoF's ending the blight; Clarel saw her chance for glory going to another a Ferelden and I think that really chaffed.

 

I don't think you can excuse the footsoldiers from their order following when the orders are objectively insane and clearly immoral, yet they follow them. But that goes back to the GWs issues, including their weird fetish for "well do whatever it takes to end the Blight(s)!" without really thinking through the cost benefit (the best example being Duncan recruiting the clearly and painfully obviously unsuited Ser Jory). 

[In Exile]

Actually, 2 is completely true, and it is completely explained in Origins: If the killing blow is not struck by a Warden, the soul finds the nearest tainted creature to jump into. Since there's a horde of darkspawn around, that's plenty of things to jump to, and is the reason the First Blight lasted as long as it did. There were no Wardens to end the AD. Cory's ability being similar is discussed in DA I, but it is not the same as an AD. He invested a part of himself into the dragon, just as Flemeth invested a part of herself into the amulet that Hawke brings to the Dalish in DA 2.

 

No. That's what the GWs believe. That's not proof that it's true. And we don't even know if that's truly what the GWs believe, seeing as how they keep secrets from their order. This is just what Riordan knows, and he's not exactly privy to the inner circle of GW secrets. 

 

You're wrong about Corypheus. It's the reverse. Investing part of himself in the dragon isn't what makes him immortal - it's what makes him vulnerable. His natural state is immortality, as is explained near the end of the game. 

[DDJ]

You are right.  The immorality for "the greater good" is such a poor justification that it rankles.  Consider the elf origin - I will help you but only if you become a warden.  Human origin:  the castle is on fire and the Bann is an ally, but I will only save his child if he becomes a Warden.  Our  concerns outweigh anything else.  It is, at the end, an Order of deceit and murder, and while one cannot deny the ultimate good they do, how many innocent lives are lost in the process such as if you don't drink I will have to kill you philosophy.  They are dangerous and their lack of basic morality compounds the issue. 

 

Now I may have to go back to exiling the Wardens.

[lynroy]

Wow, this thread is a year old and still generating discussion.

That is the power of the necro.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I let them stay. The poor saps equipped the Idiot Ball and lost about 50 Cunning. The Templars, Mages and Seekers all had that too and I was willing to be moderately merciful to them, so why not the Wardens. 

[Nonoru]

Why banish an order which could save the world simply because you're temporarily mad at them for the death of one guy? It feels like a major decision which will have big repercussions in upcoming games. 

 

They were desperate because of the false Calling yet, still tried to do something which, while not the best course of action, ultimately, should have lead to something positive. (the supposedly ending of the Blights)

 

We all knew what the wardens were and that they didn't let morality stop them from taking drastic measures. If you chose to ignore that fact simply because we impersonated one, it's you choice but don't make it as if nobody foresaw them doing something stupid at some point. 

 

If you banish them while still allying with either of the mages or templars, you're simply showing a strange bias, because you would be forgiving people who actually engaged in an all out war. (killing much more people than the few wardens sacrificing their lives willingly). Of course, you could argue over the wardens being the ones who aided Corypheus assassinate Justinia but those were mages who were bound to him.

[prosthetic soul]

Yeah I know. I'm a Casssandra romacer here. I've done her romace twice and I never banished the Wardens or got her disapproval state.

For the love of Andraste, I'm talking about her becoming Divine. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

For the love of Andraste, I'm talking about her becoming Divine. 

Oh. Clever.

[Dabrikishaw]

I'm sure Cassandra has the easiest time becoming Divine out of the 3, so keeping the Warden's should matter to her chance as long as you work on the other options for Cass.

 

EDIT: And I lack in reading comprehension today.

[Ghost Gal]

Seriously, is there any sensible stance in favor of letting them stay? I know we all love them as a whole, but the branch we deal with in Inquisition was faced with trouble and defaulted to USE BLOOD MAGIC TO SUMMON A DEMON ARMY. If it were any other faction, we'd put every one of them to the sword, but nostalgia for Origins means that almost everyone let them go with a promise to not do it again. Ridiculous!

 

This little thing called "trying to prevent history from repeating itself."

 

200 years ago the Wardens made a political mistake and got banished from Ferelden. Because stigmas last forever in Thedas, Ferelden didn't let Wardens back into their borders till recently, but in small numbers and with serious suspicion. Since Ferelden is the only major nation with few to no Wardens, that's where the Blight struck, and because Loghain held onto that ridiculous stigma against Wardens, he refused to trust or let them back in until it was almost too late.

 

There are still two more Old Gods that could be corrupted into Archdemons, and intelligent darkspawn like the Architect and his followers running around. Orlais is the largest and most influential nation (hell, it's an empire) in Southern Thedas; not to mention it has the largest Grey Warden order outside the Anderfels. If the Wardens are all banished from the largest nation with the biggest concentration of people, guess where the next Blight will strike next? And with the Wardens still banished and still with the stigma without an expiration date attached too them, guess how quickly people will forgive them and let them back in when the darkspawn are literally swallowing the country whole? They won't, not until it's too late.

 

I'd rather let them redeem themselves and get this stupid stigma lifted for the sake of combating future Blights and darkspawn attacks than punish them to the end of time at the risk of leaving Southern Thedas vulnerable to future darkspawn attacks.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Why wouldn't you exile the Grey Wardens?

Because they're the Grey fing Wardens.

[DDJ]

There are some good comments here.  The problem is that stigmas are not easily lived down, and given their amoral philosophy they are exceptionally dangerous, almost fanatical - some of them anyway.  There was ample opportunity for them to put a stop to Clarel's plan - they did not.  There was ample opportunity for them to put an end to Sophia Dryden's plan - they did not.  They did not need to kill Jory - yet they did.  It is a long list, a kind of "do what we want or die."  Forgiving them again and again is exactly at the root of the problem.  They never receive justice for their crimes.  They will brook no criticism and when Hawke does criticize them Stroud takes umbrage.  They call it "mistakes," but one wonders just exactly the families of the victims would call it if interviewed and given the facts.  It is hardly a wonder that the joining ritual is so secret - or was.  If it were known that they murdered those who refused to drink and, frankly, are murdering those who do they would face a lot more than a stigma.  I am still uncertain that an armed Order with no morality and only one way of viewing things is a force I would want anywhere near any of my family or friends.  I banished them for a long time until I realized that left them on the prowl with no adult supervision as it were.  I wonder if put them all to the sword had been an option, how many would have done it.  I was sorely tempted.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

There are some good comments here.  The problem is that stigmas are not easily lived down, and given their amoral philosophy they are exceptionally dangerous, almost fanatical - some of them anyway.  There was ample opportunity for them to put a stop to Clarel's plan - they did not.  There was ample opportunity for them to put an end to Sophia Dryden's plan - they did not.  They did not need to kill Jory - yet they did.  It is a long list, a kind of "do what we want or die."  Forgiving them again and again is exactly at the root of the problem.  They never receive justice for their crimes.  They will brook no criticism and when Hawke does criticize them Stroud takes umbrage.  They call it "mistakes," but one wonders just exactly the families of the victims would call it if interviewed and given the facts.  It is hardly a wonder that the joining ritual is so secret - or was.  If it were known that they murdered those who refused to drink and, frankly, are murdering those who do they would face a lot more than a stigma.  I am still uncertain that an armed Order with no morality and only one way of viewing things is a force I would want anywhere near any of my family or friends.  I banished them for a long time until I realized that left them on the prowl with no adult supervision as it were.  I wonder if put them all to the sword had been an option, how many would have done it.  I was sorely tempted.  

One nit I feel needs picking: the Joining Ritual is secret because of the paranoia about blood magic. The Chantry forbids academic dissections out of fear of it, so whether or not you care to argue that the Joining isn't blood magic, one might imagine large portions of the Chantry and Templar order (and probably people at large) would raise a stink. They don't keep it a secret because they kill those who back out, so much as they kill those who back out to keep a very damaging secret that could get an entirely necessary ritual banned.

 

Forgiving them (edit: by which I mean the Order as a whole, since individual Wardens are disposable and might need to be punished if they legitimately cross a line) over and over again leads to bad places, but it's preferable to the alternative because the alternative is an increased risk of the next Blight ending the world.