1570 réponses à ce sujet

[ThePhoenixKing]

Not entirely sure why the Wardens are being blamed for the Divine's death, when it's pretty obvious they're being mind-controlled by Corypheus. That was one of the major points of Legacy, after all: Corypheus was able to influence the Wardens' minds even when asleep and sealed away, that's why they abandoned his prison to begin with. They're no more morally responsible than, say, Jessica Jones under the influence of mind control, or the crew of Moya in the Farscape episode "Crackers Don't Matter." That's the point of mind control, your will and choices are not your own.

[In Exile]

One nit I feel needs picking: the Joining Ritual is secret because of the paranoia about blood magic. The Chantry forbids academic dissections out of fear of it, so whether or not you care to argue that the Joining isn't blood magic, one might imagine large portions of the Chantry and Templar order (and probably people at large) would raise a stink. They don't keep it a secret because they kill those who back out, so much as they kill those who back out to keep a very damaging secret that could get an entirely necessary ritual banned.

Forgiving them (edit: by which I mean the Order as a whole, since individual Wardens are disposable and might need to be punished if they legitimately cross a line) over and over again leads to bad places, but it's preferable to the alternative because the alternative is an increased risk of the next Blight ending the world.

Well, we don't know if there's any way to stop the next Blight apart from GWs since they so far have a total monopoly on Blight stopping, and they keep most of their members in total ignorance as to what that invovles.

The thing with what the Wardens keep secret isn't the actual disclosure but the total silence. They don't need to reveal that they're all ghouls go get it out there that they can 1) sense darkspawn 2) sense the AD and know if there's a Blight and 3) are the only ones who can kill an AD. They got countries to 100% surrender their sovereignty and give them notionally unrestricted conscription rights. Getting them to accept the latter is almost easy in return.

[DDJ]

The points about mind control and forgiveness have good points, but the Wardens, mind controlled or not, did help murder the Divine.  They made their choice to summon a demon army, and this was part of the result.  You are right about forgiveness leading to bad places.  Perhaps some justice such as hanging a few or beheading them - typical medieval punishments - would work to head them to a better place.

[diaspora2k5]

The Orlesian Wardens suffered from poor leadership. There was no sense in sending them all away.

[GoldenGail3]

For the love of Andraste, I'm talking about her becoming Divine.

Oh Gods, she isn't divine in my Cassandra Romancing Worldstate. Leliana is.

[Aren]

The problem with putting the Wardens under the oversight of the Templars is that the Templars (indeed, most of the factions in the setting) have done a lot worse for a lot longer for a lot less justifiable reasons. Even Cullen was perfectly willing to cover his ears and ignore the rampant sexual abuse, torture and random Tranquilizations going on in the Kirkwall Circle, for which he was never taken to task. It's kinda like dealing with corruption in the US Army by asking FIFA to monitor them; the cure is far worse than the disease.

Maybe this is me and my utter refusal to operate on outrage culture logic, but I fail to see how an organization that has saved the world on no fewer than five seperate occasions and is the only reason anyone still lives to ****** about them should be hampered or condemned by the actions of a single branch being manipulated by an extradimensional evil. And that's an important thing to note too: the rest of the villains/opposing powers in Inquisition made those choices consciously (Fiona selling out to the Venatori, the Templars taking red lyrium, etc). The Wardens at least had the excuse of Nightmare deceiving them, why should they be punished when the people who made bad choices without such manipulation get off scott-free?

Agree with most of your post aside from 1 point.
I genuinely believe that the GW order do not deserve to be adressed as the one who saved the world 5 times, mostly because they used the army of the nations of Thedas to do that and unlike the dwarf most of the time in between blights they are just sitting in their fortress while doing nothing.

[MidnightWolf]

The points about mind control and forgiveness have good points, but the Wardens, mind controlled or not, did help murder the Divine.  They made their choice to summon a demon army, and this was part of the result.  You are right about forgiveness leading to bad places.  Perhaps some justice such as hanging a few or beheading them - typical medieval punishments - would work to head them to a better place.

How exactly did they choose to summon Demons, if they were being controlled? You either have free will or you don't, and they didn't. Or did you not notice those lemmings at the ritual tower in the Western Approach? It's specifically stated in game that the Warden Mages are under full control of Corypheus.

[DDJ]

I had not considered the possibility of putting of putting the GW under the Templars but I agree that it is a bad idea.  In point of fact, the concept of using drugs - lyrium - was flawed from the beginning as are the GW.  You are using drug addicts, who can be easily broken by cutting off their supply like what happened in DAI.  They may have felt themselves justified in pursuing the mages, but the fact is that  as addicts it was easy to get them to take tainted lyrium to control them using the blight.  Same with the GW.  So you would have drug addicts controlling violent people who are short sighted with blinders on.  Thinking of this as an aside, I always play as an elf for reasons I won't go into.  After the first play through I determined that I wanted to rock the Chantry, the oppressor of my people, to its core.  So I always put Vivienne as Divine.  It is infinitely satisfying in a macabre way.

 

I also believe that the GW don't deserve the credit for defeating the Blight five times, at least not by themselves.  Keep in mind that there are other magisters out there of the original seven.  All of them have the potential to influence the Wardens.  Trusting them, given all of the crimes we know they have committed, is beyond risky.  I also refuse to accept a philosophy of "the greater good" to justify an outrage based culture.  They must have one heck of a propaganda machine to get away with it.  Nor do they seem to have cared about finding a blight cure which could benefit not only them but all of Thedas.  Not all of the Wardens joined voluntarily, and if you romanced either Leliana or Morrigan in DAO and your Warden lived, that Warden is hunting a cure.  Duncan had no problem killing Jory in DAO for refusing to take the blood.  How many people were murdered under similar circumstances?  When one considers that there have been only five blights, centuries apart, the proportions of these "greater good" killings is staggering.  I recall that Duncan makes some self righteous statement that the Blight demands sacrifice.  Actually that is not true.  The GW demand sacrifice to achieve their single minded goal.  A sacrifice is given willingly.  Being sacrificed by those whose judgment is substantially flawed - 2/3 of the conscripts Duncan chose died and he approved the plan that got the Wardens wiped out - is not the same thing.  Had the army formed a shield wall and released the hounds later after volleys of arrows, the battle could have gone a different way.  Obviously it did not, and of course the army had to lose to make a game, but the point remains.  After all, they wrote the story and in one instruction it notes that "no one will remember your heroic charge."  Frankly I believe that the Wardens should be forced to give up their dark secrets.  Perhaps imprisoning older members of the Wardens publicly where people could see them turning into ghouls would be effective.  That is why I always insure Alastair is King of Ferelden.  After all, if I refused to drink the blood and successfully killed Duncan, Alastair was there to insure I would not live to tell about it.

 

Now that I think on it the concept has appeal.  Punishment for the guilty - what a novel concept.

[d1ta]

Why I spare the Wardens?

Because my Inquisitor is a nice girl in the surface but a power hungry lass in the inside.

Any force she could attain, skilled soldiers and what have you, she would throw them all under Cullen's boots and the Inquisition's banner.
Every army has their weaknesses and for her, holding on to those forces is like holding cards. She'd rather have the right cards being put on the table for certain circumstances.

And this is to make Teagan's fear more real XD
And I am greatful that the game doesn't focus much on the economic aspect of maintaining an army. Damn expensive to keep XD especially if you are receuiting everyone

[ThePhoenixKing]

Agree with most of your post aside from 1 point.
I genuinely believe that the GW order do not deserve to be adressed as the one who saved the world 5 times, mostly because they used the army of the nations of Thedas to do that and unlike the dwarf most of the time in between blights they are just sitting in their fortress while doing nothing.

 

A couple points:

 

First of all, it's explicitly stated and shown that the Wardens are still active in-between Blights. They're intercepting any darkspawn warbands that make it to the surface, they're conducting raids into the Deep Roads, trying to keep them as clear as possible, aiding the dwarves of Orzammar, preparing surface defenses, etc. They're not just sitting around, polishing their boots all day.

 

Secondly, yes, the Wardens have saved the world five times, because not only are they the only ones who can kill the Archdemons (you know, the creatures that direct and perpetuate the Blights), those armies that you mentioned? They're only able to help repel the darkspawn because they're organized under the banner of the Grey Wardens. That's what the Warden treaties are for, to get the people of Thedas to postpone their petty squabbles and rally as one against the Blight. As Origins proved, they certainly wouldn't be doing it by themselves without the Warden's prodding.

[DDJ]

Now, I had not thought of it, but assuming that C is controlling all of the Wardens, why isn't Alastair hearing the calling?  That seems odd indeed.

[GoldenGail3]

DDJ;,Can we not have the Wardens be punished like that?! They're being punished enough by slaying Darkspawn constantly and having shorter life spans so no. And as for relieving there secrets? Not so much, just keep the ones like there the only ones that can really kil people joining there order at all secret. All the other secrets may go though.

[Morwen_yeah]

I kept them because yes I felt nostalgia from being a Warden back in Origin, because my Inquistor is giving possibilities to everyone (I never killed a culprit but I kept them as a resource for the Inquisition so a chance for them to redeem) and because the Inquisition needs men. Also I felt verry sorry for them because I got his chief killed.

 

But I feel Cassandra fear. If I was thinking rationally I would have esiliated them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Now, I had not thought of it, but assuming that C is controlling all of the Wardens, why isn't Alastair hearing the calling?  That seems odd indeed.

We don't know that he isn't. We don't even meet Drunkistair and Kingistair would probably want to keep it under wraps to avoid causing a panic.

 

On the other hand, since we don't even know how the spell is targeted we don't know if Drunkistair or Kingistair should be caught up in it. It could be that the countries themselves are targeted, and the effect is that anyone with the Taint hears the Calling. In that case Alistair is hearing the Calling, since he's either in Denerim as king or accompanying Teagan who is overseeing his rehabilitation. Alternatively, it could target a specific fortress, or the caster could have had to individually target each and every Warden. You wouldn't necessarily expect Alistair to hear it in that case unless he's still actively serving the Order, and he does hear it if he is. As for which one is true, to target everyone with a Warden body in a large area would likely require the caster to manipulate the Taint, and since as I understand it Corypheus delegated to the Nightmare demon I don't know that that is possible. Corypheus can manipulate the Taint as such a spell requires, but demons aren't supposed to be very good with it.

 

The one case in which I'd expect a non-Warden Alistair to hear The Calling if the spell does anything except targeting every person with a Warden body in Ferelden and Orlais is if he's King (he isn't always,) Corypheus knows him to be a Warden (we don't know that Corypheus does know this unless Alistair is actively serving as one,) and Corypheus is trying to throw him off balance and possibly manipulate him into going on the Calling. (This would be a clever manipulation, but we don't know that Corypheus would think to try it even if he did know Alistair's past.)

[Lebanese Dude]

Because they deserve a second chance.

[DDJ]

I agree that everyone deserves a second chance.  Respectfully, I am not certain that this is their second chance.  They were already booted from Ferelden once.  I suppose that it is like any organization.  An organization does not sin or commit crimes - people do, and if the wrong people are in positions of power it leads to problems.  I still cannot get behind their drink or die (and in some cases drink and die) philosophy nor am I overly enamored of any atrocity is justifiable, and if you play as an evil warden their are plenty of opportunities to commit atrocities.  To each his own.

 

Regarding Alistair / Drunkstair / Kingstair I really am not sure he is bright enough to pull such a ploy.  I have never been overly impressed with his intellectual capacity.  Still, many like him and I mean no disrespect to anyone..  

[Just My Moniker]

The Grey Wardens shouldn't be exiled cuz if an archdemon happened to show up, you gonna be fukked up 

 

(You saw what happened when Ferelden banned the Grey Wardens?)

[robertthebard]

No. That's what the GWs believe. That's not proof that it's true. And we don't even know if that's truly what the GWs believe, seeing as how they keep secrets from their order. This is just what Riordan knows, and he's not exactly privy to the inner circle of GW secrets. 
 
You're wrong about Corypheus. It's the reverse. Investing part of himself in the dragon isn't what makes him immortal - it's what makes him vulnerable. His natural state is immortality, as is explained near the end of the game.

No, it's historical fact. Read through how long the First Blight lasted. What happens to a Warden that doesn't do the DR and takes the killing blow? They die. The Warden that killed the AD in the First Blight wasn't the first person to kill it, but he was the last person to kill it.

Then we shouldn't have needed to fight the dragon at all, right? Killing the dragon is what weakened him enough for us to finish him and be "reasonably" assured he isn't coming back.

[MichaelN7]

I admit, I was torn.

Granted, the OP is correct in that Origins has likely biased us towards the Wardens, and DA2 has likely biased us towards Hawke, so being objective about the whole thing is nigh impossible.

 

However, I did not exile the Wardens because "Origins!".

I kept them around because of what the Inquisitor says (paraphrasing):

"Going after Venatori is no longer an option, but there are other threats that still need to be dealt with."

Even from the beginning, there are Wardens who are against the whole "summon a demon army" and who notice that something seems "off", and when it all goes bonkers at the fortress, it's clear at the end that the Wardens realized they messed up, bad.  But they are wanting to "make up for Clarel's tragic mistake."

 

So why not let them make up for that mistake by serving the Inquisition?

For my canon Inquisitor, he will ally, not conscript.  Whether it's mages or templars, or with the ancient elven temple, he'll endeavor to create alliances/friendships instead of just "I beat you, now you do what I say".

But this is kind of the exception.  Everyone knows that the Grey Wardens were THIS close to destroying the world, however unintentional they were in doing so.

As the Inquisitor, I can't immediately be all "buddy-buddy" with the same group who nearly doomed us all, but I CAN give them the opportunity to redeem themselves.

And since everyone knows that the Inquisition "beat" the Wardens, that puts me in the unique position to guide how they operate for the foreseeable future.

 

In a way, the Wardens' situation mirror's Blackwall's.  Both made a grave error in judgment, partially due to misinformation.  Both seek to make recompense for it, and you have the option of either giving them that chance, or abandoning them.

My Inquisitor gives Blackwall a second chance, so it would be hypocritical of my Inquisitor to deny that same second chance to the Wardens as a whole.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Then we shouldn't have needed to fight the dragon at all, right? Killing the dragon is what weakened him enough for us to finish him and be "reasonably" assured he isn't coming back.

No, because the dragon's existence doesn't in and of itself weaken Cory enough. As you pointed out, it's the dragon dying while Corypheus's power exists inside it that weakens him enough to make him truly vulnerable.

[robertthebard]

No, because the dragon's existence doesn't in and of itself weaken Cory enough. As you pointed out, it's the dragon dying while Corypheus's power exists inside it that weakens him enough to make him truly vulnerable.

Yes, because that part of his essence that he put there is no longer there. This is what keeps him from jumping to a new body, as Morrigan points out, he likely doesn't have a "range". This is why beating the dragon was key to winning. It removed his effective immortality, as Solas points out, when he no longer has a reason to lie to us. He may be quite old, but w/out the ability to jump, he's not immortal. We've seen him die twice on the way to the end of Inquisition's main story, once in DA 2, and once on the bridge to the temple.

[ModernAcademic]

Because the Wardens didn't do it. The Nightmare demon did, by faking the Calling and Erimond as well, by deceiving Clarel.

You have to understand the Calling made the Wardens panic. They readily accepted Clarel's solution because they thought they were all going to die. That some calamity was about to happen and they wouldn't survive to stop it.

Play Legacy DLC and check Larius' state of mind. That's how a Warden that's already lost to the Calling acts like. The Calling removes their capability for independent and rational thought. All they know is the music.

It was a miracle Stroud/Alistair/Loghain remained lucid enough to even talk to your Inquisitor.

[diaspora2k5]

It's actually interesting- for those who've read Last Flight the Wardens in Weisshaupt were concerned with Clarel going essentially radio-silent on them. Their idea was to investigate by sending in Templar Warden recruits (objectors/defectors to the mage-templar war) who hadn't yet undergone the joining to Orlais to see if they could find anything out.

 

Ultimately they didn't, but it speaks well to Weisshaupt's leadership that they didn't throw tainted Wardens into Orlais where the nightmare demon was messing with Warden minds.

[Abyss108]

The only reason Gray Wardens are needed is because they refuse to tell anyone else how to kill the Archdemon. 

[ExelArtz]

People act like there couldn't be a "NEW" group just like the Wardens.

 

Remember, the Wardens had to start somewhere.. someone was the FIRST, so its not like you couldn't figure out their "trick" and do it again if a new group needed to be formed.

 

The way I see it, the Wardens are no different then the Inquisition.  It was a group of people who got together to fight the first blight any way they could; and just like the inquistion, once their enemy is "gone" the mission will twist and change..  the Wardens of today are a lot different from the Wardens of "then".

 

If they make a DA:4.. I fully expect them to set it in the "Future" like 100+ years has gone by since the formation of the Inquisition... and I fully expect it to be a completely different beast.

I doubt it'll be that far into the future, we still need to deal with solas and this possible qunari invasion