1570 réponses à ce sujet

[ExelArtz]

Let's not forget that over the years they have murdered a lot of people then the qunari did during DA2

[Asdrubael Vect]

Seriously, is there any sensible stance in favor of letting them stay? I know we all love them as a whole, but the branch we deal with in Inquisition was faced with trouble and defaulted to USE BLOOD MAGIC TO SUMMON A DEMON ARMY. If it were any other faction, we'd put every one of them to the sword, but nostalgia for Origins means that almost everyone let them go with a promise to not do it again. Ridiculous!

Grey Wardens is created by blood magic and they know how and use blood magic and summon demons when it needed to fight with darkspawns or enemies of grey wardens who would try to stop them to fight with blight

 

They stop darkspawns and blights no matter the cost, it always was and it always would be, and this is work and this is save Thedas

 

They do what was right in this situation and they sacrifice THEMSELFS for the sake of dealing with as much darkspawns as they could before they lost the last control over their minds and die or become ghouls who will serve darkspawns

 

I remind someone who maybe  forgot dwarfs were voluntarily make themselfs golems to stop darkspawns and blights

 

And this would be best for Inquisition to have more blood mages and other peoples, mages, greywardens, dalish, tevinter mages(not a dorian bullsh*t), nevarran mortalitasi and others who have a real knowledge and powers to solve problems not a useless fanatic templars and Orlais Chantry peoples with stupid Orlais chivaliers

 

damn only few people in Inquisition(and some of them we need to recruit via judgement) have any real use and can solve problem, many others are useless

[DDJ]

The latest replies are of great interest.  Someone indeed had to be first, and it appears that much of the Order's problems stemmed from their own secrecy.  Instead of existing to stop the Blights they harbor their secrets so that they remain relevant.  I would think that there would always be those who will fight the Blights whatever the cost such as Blackwall.  They have gone way off track however, and with their power of conscription and the joyful "we take whatever we want in the name of the greater good," their power is unchecked.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and while hesitating to stir up a fire storm, if they were truly interested in stopping the blights as opposed to maintaining their own power and importance they would tell everyone why the taint is necessary and how an archdemon is killed.  After all it is not like the Wardens are the only ones who fight darkspawn.  In DA2 we encounter darkspawn quite a bit, but nary a single Warden in sight except Stroud - who is bailing out of Kirkwall on an important mission that is never discussed and the Wardens aiding Corytheus.  In DAI the only Wardens we meet before Adamant are the two in Crestwood who will not aid the people there due to orders.

 

Admittedly it does speak well of the Wardens that they are concerned about Clarel, but are they concerned because of the damage she could - and ultimately does - do to the people of Orlais and Ferelden or are they concerned that she might be spilling their secrets outside the Order?  If Stroud sacrifices himself Solas is absolutely right that the actions of one selfless individual do not define the Wardens.  They define Stroud.  On the other side of the coin, the Wardens have committed murders and other crimes for centuries.  I suspect that is what truly defines the Wardens they have become.  Disregarding the plot armor of DAO where you must become a Warden, Duncan's judgement - the final judgement - comes right back to the drink or die / drink and die basics of this secretive order.  Not everyone is "honored" to be a Warden.  

[Treacherous J Slither]

The latest replies are of great interest. Someone indeed had to be first, and it appears that much of the Order's problems stemmed from their own secrecy. Instead of existing to stop the Blights they harbor their secrets so that they remain relevant. I would think that there would always be those who will fight the Blights whatever the cost such as Blackwall. They have gone way off track however, and with their power of conscription and the joyful "we take whatever we want in the name of the greater good," their power is unchecked. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and while hesitating to stir up a fire storm, if they were truly interested in stopping the blights as opposed to maintaining their own power and importance they would tell everyone why the taint is necessary and how an archdemon is killed. After all it is not like the Wardens are the only ones who fight darkspawn. In DA2 we encounter darkspawn quite a bit, but nary a single Warden in sight except Stroud - who is bailing out of Kirkwall on an important mission that is never discussed and the Wardens aiding Corytheus. In DAI the only Wardens we meet before Adamant are the two in Crestwood who will not aid the people there due to orders.

Admittedly it does speak well of the Wardens that they are concerned about Clarel, but are they concerned because of the damage she could - and ultimately does - do to the people of Orlais and Ferelden or are they concerned that she might be spilling their secrets outside the Order? If Stroud sacrifices himself Solas is absolutely right that the actions of one selfless individual do not define the Wardens. They define Stroud. On the other side of the coin, the Wardens have committed murders and other crimes for centuries. I suspect that is what truly defines the Wardens they have become. Disregarding the plot armor of DAO where you must become a Warden, Duncan's judgement - the final judgement - comes right back to the drink or die / drink and die basics of this secretive order. Not everyone is "honored" to be a Warden.

I don't think people would take that information lightly. There tends to be a lot of fear mongering going on and because of their fear, people do things nonsensical like oppress mages and outlaw blood magic.

The knowledge that Grey Wardens are tainted ghoul people from consuming monster blood enchanted by blood magic would not go over well and they would be facing an Exalted March in no time.

The Wardens keep their secrets in order to save people from their own stupidity.

[diaspora2k5]

I don't think people would take that information lightly. There tends to be a lot of fear mongering going on and because of their fear, people do things nonsensical like oppress mages and outlaw blood magic.

The knowledge that Grey Wardens are tainted ghoul people from consuming monster blood enchanted by blood magic would not go over well and they would be facing an Exalted March in no time.

The Wardens keep their secrets in order to save people from their own stupidity.

There's also the mention that Wardens are renown for legendary strength and power. Giving away the means to give any soldier that kind of power seems unwise.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't think people would take that information lightly. There tends to be a lot of fear mongering going on and because of their fear, people do things nonsensical like oppress mages and outlaw blood magic.

The knowledge that Grey Wardens are tainted ghoul people from consuming monster blood enchanted by blood magic would not go over well and they would be facing an Exalted March in no time.

The Wardens keep their secrets in order to save people from their own stupidity.

I agree with most of this, except for the bit where keeping mages locked in the Circles is nonsensical and done primarily due to fear mongering. The Circle system may seem cruel, but the fact of the matter is that if Connor had been in the Circle, he wouldn't have nearly (and possibly actually) destroyed Redcliffe. Ditto for Meredith's sister killing seventy people including her parents. And blood magic really does represent some of the scariest bits. To build on this, I actually understand where the people who would object to the Joining are coming from, since that is playing with really dangerous forces even if playing with those forces is entirely necessary to stop them from ending the world.

 

But yeah. Yeah, keeping this secret is necessary, because they need to the world needs them to use the Joining and they can't do so openly.

[In Exile]

A couple points:

First of all, it's explicitly stated and shown that the Wardens are still active in-between Blights. They're intercepting any darkspawn warbands that make it to the surface, they're conducting raids into the Deep Roads, trying to keep them as clear as possible, aiding the dwarves of Orzammar, preparing surface defenses, etc. They're not just sitting around, polishing their boots all day.

Secondly, yes, the Wardens have saved the world five times, because not only are they the only ones who can kill the Archdemons (you know, the creatures that direct and perpetuate the Blights), those armies that you mentioned? They're only able to help repel the darkspawn because they're organized under the banner of the Grey Wardens. That's what the Warden treaties are for, to get the people of Thedas to postpone their petty squabbles and rally as one against the Blight. As Origins proved, they certainly wouldn't be doing it by themselves without the Warden's prodding.

Not exactly, to your second point. The GWs need the non-GWs as meat shields. Their sole role is to avoid choking on their own blood long enough for the GWs to search and destroy the AD. This is part of the huge narrative problem with DAO - ultimately the actual army you get is a kind of irrelevant and arbitrary plot counter. But I digress.

The races of Thedas can never win against the darkspawn. The first blight established this point when it showed that the full might of Tevinter at the absolute peak of its power and glory could not won and when it showed that the arguably greatest (if not second greatest) empire on Thedas, the dwarves, were ground to extention over generations (as they face an unending blight underground).

The Wardens are helpful in getting people organised but that's as far as it goes here.

[KaiserShep]

Not exactly, to your second point. The GWs need the non-GWs as meat shields. Their sole role is to avoid choking on their own blood long enough for the GWs to search and destroy the AD. This is part of the huge narrative problem with DAO - ultimately the actual army you get is a kind of irrelevant and arbitrary plot counter. But I digress.
The races of Thedas can never win against the darkspawn. The first blight established this point when it showed that the full might of Tevinter at the absolute peak of its power and glory could not won and when it showed that the arguably greatest (if not second greatest) empire on Thedas, the dwarves, were ground to extention over generations (as they face an unending blight underground).
The Wardens are helpful in getting people organised but that's as far as it goes here.

Yeah, even if the Wardens successfully destroyed the old gods before they can become archdemons, the never ending darkspawn horde would still be there and constantly hammer on the dwarves until there's nothing left and then make their way topside, albeit less organized.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I agree with most of this, except for the bit where keeping mages locked in the Circles is nonsensical and done primarily due to fear mongering. The Circle system may seem cruel, but the fact of the matter is that if Connor had been in the Circle, he wouldn't have nearly (and possibly actually) destroyed Redcliffe. Ditto for Meredith's sister killing seventy people including her parents. And blood magic really does represent some of the scariest bits. To build on this, I actually understand where the people who would object to the Joining is coming from, since that is playing with really dangerous forces even if playing with those forces is entirely necessary to stop them from ending the world.

But yeah. Yeah, keeping this secret is necessary, because they need to the world needs them to use the Joining and they can't do so openly.

Knowledge, education, and experience are the best ways to prevent magic related mishaps.

Not oppression.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Knowledge, education, and experience are the best ways to prevent magic related mishaps.

Not oppression.

That's what a lot of pro-mages say, but the problem is the Circles have those first three things too. And they aren't always enough. Some mages just can't handle their magic even with those things. There will always be failures, and it's best they happen well away from the general population.

 

Though we might be getting onto a tangent here.

[ModernAcademic]

The only reason Gray Wardens are needed is because they refuse to tell anyone else how to kill the Archdemon. 

 

Because a lot of people would line up to join the Wardens once they learned all you have to do is take part in a potentially fatal ritual where you drink the blood from a tainted creature and then die after killing the Archdemon.

 

Some secrets exist for a reason other than some people thinking Wardens are douchebags.

[Abyss108]

Because a lot of people would line up to join the Wardens once they learned all you have to do is take part in a potentially fatal ritual where you drink the blood from a tainted creature and then die after killing the Archdemon.

 

Some secrets exist for a reason other than some people thinking Wardens are douchebags.

 

This isn't one.

 

It gambles the fate of the world with a bet that the higher up Wardens who know the secret won't die before passing that knowledge on. If something like Cory happens again, the knowledge of how to kill the Archdemon could be lost for good. Goodbye world!

 

Besides, you don't need an entire order. You just need the one person to strike the killing blow. It worked perfectly fine with just the Warden + potentially Alistair/Loghain. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

This isn't one.

 

It gambles the fate of the world with a bet that the higher up Wardens who know the secret won't die before passing that knowledge on. If something like Cory happens again, the knowledge of how to kill the Archdemon could be lost for good. Goodbye world!

 

Besides, you don't need an entire order. You just need the one person to strike the killing blow. It worked perfectly fine with just the Warden + potentially Alistair/Loghain. 

I don't think you answered the "people might react strongly to this secret were it known" argument. Yeah, spreading the ritual could mean more people know how to save the world, or it might mean that fewer people do because the people who learn the secret jump down the Wardens throats and refuse to use the Ritual themselves. This is an argument to make sure that a whole lot of people know the Ritual (teach every Warden, recruit a lot more) but the risks of making it open still outweigh the benefits.

 

And the "you don't need more than one Warden idea" always annoys me. Three Wardens are enough to handle the Fifth Blight because plot is on their side. Otherwise, the odds of any of them reaching the Archdemon would have been slim, let alone their odds of surviving fighting it long enough to kill it.

[Abyss108]

I don't think you answered the "people might react strongly to this secret were it known" argument. Yeah, spreading the ritual could mean more people know how to save the world, or it might mean that fewer people do because the people who learn the secret jump down the Wardens throats and refuse to use the Ritual themselves. This is an argument to make sure that a whole lot of people know the Ritual (teach every Warden, recruit a lot more) but the risks of making it open still outweigh the benefits.

 

And the "you don't need more than one Warden idea" always annoys me. Three Wardens are enough to handle the Fifth Blight because plot is on their side. Otherwise, the odds of any of them reaching the Archdemon would have been slim, let alone their odds of surviving fighting it long enough to kill it.

 

People are not going to react strongly enough to it that they will sit back and let the blight destroy them. They might shake their heads a bit, but when there's a demon army on their doorstep they are not going to be picky. People do horrific things to survive in Dragon Age all the time, this isn't any different. The fate of the world is slightly more important than "eeeeeew, drinking blood is ​eviiiiiill~".

 

You don't need more then a few wardens, when they have numerous armies from different countries ensuring they get to the Archdemon. Sure, more is better, but you certainly don't need anything close to an army of them.

[Aren]

The only reason Gray Wardens are needed is because they refuse to tell anyone else how to kill the Archdemon.

Agree, while i believe that in the current state of things the world need them, i also believe that their secrets are there more to maintain the monopoly and the privileges they aquired, rather than because they fear that there will be no recruits if the secret of the US will be revealed.
The US need to be public knowledge so that scholars all over the world can start to study alternatives and most importantly will finally know how those who killed the AD died.

[Aren]

I don't think you answered the "people might react strongly to this secret were it known" argument. Yeah, spreading the ritual could mean more people know how to save the world, or it might mean that fewer people do because the people who learn the secret jump down the Wardens throats and refuse to use the Ritual themselves. This is an argument to make sure that a whole lot of people know the Ritual (teach every Warden, recruit a lot more) but the risks of making it open still outweigh the benefits.

And the "you don't need more than one Warden idea" always annoys me. Three Wardens are enough to handle the Fifth Blight because plot is on their side. Otherwise, the odds of any of them reaching the Archdemon would have been slim, let alone their odds of surviving fighting it long enough to kill it.

During a blight there are always hundred of thousands if not a milion of darkspawn to protect the archdemon, this however was not the case in DAO as this old god was never found by the darkspawn horde it was created by the Architect, this mean that this Archdemon had few darkspawns at disposal and before to even began this blight was defeated because the archdemon was stupid enough to attack a city with a small army compared to the one leaded by his sibiling in the past.

[ModernAcademic]

And the "you don't need more than one Warden idea" always annoys me. Three Wardens are enough to handle the Fifth Blight because plot is on their side. Otherwise, the odds of any of them reaching the Archdemon would have been slim, let alone their odds of surviving fighting it long enough to kill it.

 

That's right. Plot arrmor actually makes people believe three Wardens will survive a long and perilous journey across Ferelden and make it to the top of Fort Drakon in one piece. Not to mention the whole fight against the Archdemon, a creature that can kill you in ONE BLOW. 

 

Without plot armor, it would be necessary to have hundreds of Wardens to make it out alive of the Deep Roads and to kill the hordes in Denerim. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

People are not going to react strongly enough to it that they will sit back and let the blight destroy them. They might shake their heads a bit, but when there's a demon army on their doorstep they are not going to be picky. People do horrific things to survive in Dragon Age all the time, this isn't any different. The fate of the world is slightly more important than "eeeeeew, drinking blood is ​eviiiiiill~".

 

You don't need more then a few wardens, when they have numerous armies from different countries ensuring they get to the Archdemon. Sure, more is better, but you certainly don't need anything close to an army of them.

This is not a setting full of intelligent, reasonable people. This is a setting where academic dissections are frowned upon because of blood magic. The Chantry as a whole seems to have an intelligent, reasonable, policy of looking the other way when the Wardens get up to something, but any individual king or mid-ranking Templar could very well attack them over this. Rylock attacked the Warden-Commander of Ferelden over stuff they had a much clearer right to do, just imagine what she'd do if she knew Anders had drunk darkspawn blood.

 

Well, putting aside how you don't want to chance the Archdemon being able to take the hundred or so Wardens you throw at it, the fact remains that the Wardens really do seem to do things in between Blights. There's a Deep Roads entrance in the Emprise Du Lion they used to watch over, for example. An army would certainly help with that.

[Abyss108]

The Wardens accepted it just fine. And they are not some race of magically enlightened people from a different planet, they are normal men and women from every culture on Thedas.

 

No one is going to choose to let the world burn instead of taking the ritual. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Wardens accepted it just fine. And they are not some race of magically enlightened people from a different planet, they are normal men and women from every culture on Thedas.

 

No one is going to choose to let the world burn instead of taking the ritual. 

Again: Rylock.

 

Without commenting on whether such people are the majority, they exist. And at least one managed to get a surprising amount of pull, since Rylock had several other Templars with her.

 

Edit: I'll also note that the Wardens were founded before the religion that started the whole Blood Magic stigma was founded, which might have meant people were more likely to do it then. And those who don't want to do it because of that stigma die. So yeah, the Wardens all accepting it doesn't mean much.

[DDJ]

I would certainly agree that such people do exist thankfully.  Not everyone wants to spend their lives devoted to war and death - particularly not an endless war with no end in site or sacrifice everything to fight such a war.  If one considers Duncan a superior commander of the Wardens, and I think he is, then having two out of three die during the joining - one of whom is murdered - does not speak well for the secrecy bit.  Nor can the Wardens keep their cheerful "You'll become a ghoul and die gloriously in a useless conflict as your only future."  I have always felt betrayed by having Duncan not tell me and Alastair lying about it until nearly the end of the game, but that is me and I have a darker world view than most.  That is why I always make him king.  As king he will not be permitted to go to the Deep Roads and so as his madness grows and he begins to rot, the Wardens' secret will be exposed.  There is a line in DAI when the Herald saves Butler that we can't solve our problems with murder.  Interesting that the Wardens are unable to embrace that philosophy and focus on the positive bits about being a Warden while being honest.  

 

Frankly the longer I think on this the more irritated I am that I never had the opportunity to kill Duncan except in the Fade or Alastair, but having him be king is more than enough.

[In Exile]

I would certainly agree that such people do exist thankfully.  Not everyone wants to spend their lives devoted to war and death - particularly not an endless war with no end in site or sacrifice everything to fight such a war.  If one considers Duncan a superior commander of the Wardens, and I think he is, then having two out of three die during the joining - one of whom is murdered - does not speak well for the secrecy bit.  Nor can the Wardens keep their cheerful "You'll become a ghoul and die gloriously in a useless conflict as your only future."  I have always felt betrayed by having Duncan not tell me and Alastair lying about it until nearly the end of the game, but that is me and I have a darker world view than most.  That is why I always make him king.  As king he will not be permitted to go to the Deep Roads and so as his madness grows and he begins to rot, the Wardens' secret will be exposed.  There is a line in DAI when the Herald saves Butler that we can't solve our problems with murder.  Interesting that the Wardens are unable to embrace that philosophy and focus on the positive bits about being a Warden while being honest.  

 

Frankly the longer I think on this the more irritated I am that I never had the opportunity to kill Duncan except in the Fade or Alastair, but having him be king is more than enough.

 

Wait, what? Duncan is incredibly incompetent. Of the three people he recruits, one is so comically and obviously unqualified to be a Warden that it almost raises questions about Duncan's sanity that he ever thought this was a good idea. 

 

Not to mention that Duncan signs on to the one plan that's, as far as he knows, absolutely guaranteed to end in the potential death of everyone in Fereldan and it's being overrun by the blight (i.e., Grey Wardens in the Vanguard). If Duncan is good at his job, I honestly don't want to see bad. 

 

The lying is just another sign of their general incompetence. 

[DDJ]

Agreed.  They could also have sealed it with tons of rock and mortar mined from the quarries of Sarnia as well rather than letting it stay open.  Just a thought.

[ModernAcademic]

Wait, what? Duncan is incredibly incompetent. Of the three people he recruits, one is so comically and obviously unqualified to be a Warden that it almost raises questions about Duncan's sanity that he ever thought this was a good idea. 

 

Not to mention that Duncan signs on to the one plan that's, as far as he knows, absolutely guaranteed to end in the potential death of everyone in Fereldan and it's being overrun by the blight (i.e., Grey Wardens in the Vanguard). If Duncan is good at his job, I honestly don't want to see bad. 

 

The lying is just another sign of their general incompetence. 

 

Maybe Duncan doesn't get to choose who he can recruit. Maybe all good warriors and fighters prefer to join the army rather than an organisation widely known to recruit convicts.

 

He was lucky to find Alistair, an honest and eager young lad who could be molded and shaped into a responsible warrior and leader in time. Everyone was naive and carefree once. Some people grow and change. That was his hope.

 

Duncan simply had to make the most with what little resources he had in Ferelden. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Maybe Duncan doesn't get to choose who he can recruit.

Unless they know someone really important, he kinda does. In three of the Origins (four, depending on whether you help Jowan) he spirits you away from a death sentence, and in all of them it's made clear that nobody (that includes you) has any legal recourse. The only reason he can't recruit an unwilling Cousland is because the rest of the Couslands can make his life hard through various channels even though they're absolutely not supposed to do so.