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[sniper_arrow]

Maybe Duncan doesn't get to choose who he can recruit. Maybe all good warriors and fighters prefer to join the army rather than an organisation widely known to recruit convicts.

 

He was lucky to find Alistair, an honest and eager young lad who could be molded and shaped into a responsible warrior and leader in time. Everyone was naive and carefree once. Some people grow and change. That was his hope.

 

Duncan simply had to make the most with what little resources he had in Ferelden. 

 

The Rite of Conscription is used to those who Wardens believe are useful in a fight, regardless of status and race. Also, during DAO, the Wardens were considered as legendary warriors until we witnessed the Joining.

 

As for Alistair, Duncan did promise Fiona and Maric to watch over him.

[In Exile]

Unless they know someone really important, he kinda does. In three of the Origins (four, depending on whether you help Jowan) he spirits you away from a death sentence, and in all of them it's made clear that nobody (that includes you) has any legal recourse. The only reason he can't recruit an unwilling Cousland is because the rest of the Couslands can make his life hard through various channels even though they're absolutely not supposed to do so.

 

In fact, Duncan is pretty clear that he's going to insidiously plan to convince you to join the Wardens anyway once your father and brother leave, when you if you parse his dialogue when you ask him about the Wardens. Duncan points out that he won't conscript you, but that's about as far as his magnanimity extends. 

 

Maybe Duncan doesn't get to choose who he can recruit. Maybe all good warriors and fighters prefer to join the army rather than an organisation widely known to recruit convicts.

 

He was lucky to find Alistair, an honest and eager young lad who could be molded and shaped into a responsible warrior and leader in time. Everyone was naive and carefree once. Some people grow and change. That was his hope.

 

Duncan simply had to make the most with what little resources he had in Ferelden. 

 

It's not about fighting. Jory is clearly a good fighter. He's just totally unsuited for the incredibly mentally exhausting task of being a GW. These aren't people who have to be skilled - or just be skilled. These are people who have to be psychologically capable of handling the perpetual horror of being a GW. 

 

There's a reason some jobs have a psych evaluation as a precondition. 

[ModernAcademic]

The Rite of Conscription is used to those who Wardens believe are useful in a fight, regardless of status and race. Also, during DAO, the Wardens were considered as legendary warriors until we witnessed the Joining.

 

As for Alistair, Duncan did promise Fiona and Maric to watch over him.

 

The Wardens can't use the Right of Conscription often without hurting their cause. The reason is due to the Order having been banished after what happened to Sophia Dryden. 

 

This is why Duncan backs off after trying to conscript Bryce Couslands's heir.

[In Exile]

The Wardens can't use the Right of Conscription often without hurting their cause. The reason is due to the Order having been banished after what happened to Sophia Dryden. 

 

This is why Duncan backs off after trying to conscript Bryce Couslands's heir.

 

Like anything, it eats up political capital. Especially since it takes a dump on the political sovereignty of whatever nation is about to execute (or imprison) a criminal. No blights are bad for GW business that way. 

[KaiserShep]

The Rite of Conscription is used to those who Wardens believe are useful in a fight, regardless of status and race. Also, during DAO, the Wardens were considered as legendary warriors until we witnessed the Joining.

 

As for Alistair, Duncan did promise Fiona and Maric to watch over him.

 

Status can be a pretty big hindrance to a Grey Warden. Like, a Grey Warden would catch his ass trying to conscript, say, a king's son or daughter so long as the king has the capacity to act against that Warden. 

[ModernAcademic]

Not to mention that the taint causes sterility. So, no heirs to continue the bloodline.

 

 

(PS: the only known exception being Fiona.)

[MidnightWolf]

Not to mention that the taint causes sterility. So, no heirs to continue the bloodline.
 
 
(PS: the only known exception being Fiona.)

Except if I remember correctly, her 'taint' was removed before she became pregnant?......Its been a few years since I read The Calling so I maybe wrong however.

[ModernAcademic]

Except if I remember correctly, her 'taint' was removed before she became pregnant?......Its been a few years since I read The Calling so I maybe wrong however.

 

It's been a couple of years since I read, so I'm not too sure, but I think it was the pregnancy that made her taint vanish. 

 

Sadly, the book doesn't provide any explanation as to how it happened. 

 

 

I guess conception in itself is a form of harmless blood magic, one that can cure the taint, since Morrigan and Fiona both ended up purifying a tainted life form in their wombs. It's just speculation on my part.

 

Magical pregnancy is a recurrent theme in fantasy, so, who knows.

[Treacherous J Slither]

That's what a lot of pro-mages say, but the problem is the Circles have those first three things too. And they aren't always enough. Some mages just can't handle their magic even with those things. There will always be failures, and it's best they happen well away from the general population.

Though we might be getting onto a tangent here.

The thing about that is not every mage is in a Circle tower. Many are out there on their own. Some with no training whatsoever.

The current system is a reactive one which Templars can only grab a mage when they learn of the mages existence.

A better idea would be to have the necessary information a mage needs to be common knowledge and easily attainable so that even the mages the Templars couldn't get their hands on would potentially become less of a threat to the public. The Chantry could give sermons on how to detect and resist demonic temptation and possession. It could be taught to soldiers and children in school. This information could be anywhere and everywhere and could quite possibly negate the need for a Circle in the first place.

Also, the threat of lifelong imprisonment and possibly death is a deterrent to people who need the training a Circle can provide. So they instead stay on the run and remain a threat to the public.

Take away the oppressive aspects of the Circle and many people would be more inclined to become a member and receive the training they need.

This doesn't mean that magic related threats would disappear but it could certainly lessen them a considerable degree.

[DDJ]

Now here is a heretical question for you all.  Let's assume that during a bonding ritual an intended conscript says "To hell with this," breaks free and escapes with the knowledge of what they intended?  Does the Order hunt them down to kill them?  Moreover, let's assume that someone is forced into it against their will.  Surely someone would say something along the lines of "they murdered me.  So, I'll murder them back."  So what happens to those Wardens who rebel such as Anders and decide to have their pound of flesh from the Order.  Bioware lulls us into the "we are honored" scenario, but what about those who are not honored and furious about being made into ghouls.  Consider the Hero of Ferelden.  If they survive and hunting a cure but cannot find one, just what do they do?  A popular and heroic figure of that stature could cause a major problem for the Wardens.

 

Just a thought;.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Now here is a heretical question for you all. Let's assume that during a bonding ritual an intended conscript says "To hell with this," breaks free and escapes with the knowledge of what they intended? Does the Order hunt them down to kill them? Moreover, let's assume that someone is forced into it against their will. Surely someone would say something along the lines of "they murdered me. So, I'll murder them back." So what happens to those Wardens who rebel such as Anders and decide to have their pound of flesh from the Order. Bioware lulls us into the "we are honored" scenario, but what about those who are not honored and furious about being made into ghouls. Consider the Hero of Ferelden. If they survive and hunting a cure but cannot find one, just what do they do? A popular and heroic figure of that stature could cause a major problem for the Wardens.

Just a thought;.

I imagine that few would believe this individual. Especially when asked to provide proof.

This rogue Warden would be seen as a crazy person and largely ignored.

Now if a seasoned Warden turned against the order and attempted to spill it's secrets I imagine they would succeed. Especially if they knew the Joining process and showed people the effects of the Calling.

At that point Thedas would probably self destruct.

[ModernAcademic]

Now here is a heretical question for you all.  Let's assume that during a bonding ritual an intended conscript says "To hell with this," breaks free and escapes with the knowledge of what they intended?  

 

Bonding ritual, eh? I like the sound of that. 

 

 

Spoiler

 

[DDJ]

It would be interesting to see what happens when they do emerge from the shadows.

[DDJ]

I imagine that few would believe this individual. Especially when asked to provide proof.

This rogue Warden would be seen as a crazy person and largely ignored.

Now if a seasoned Warden turned against the order and attempted to spill it's secrets I imagine they would succeed. Especially if they knew the Joining process and showed people the effects of the Calling.

At that point Thedas would probably self destruct.

 

Of course they could also be forced to come clean.  Either way it would be interesting.

[Abyss108]

I don't think they would be seen as crazy at all. The Wardens are obviously hiding something with how secretive they are, and it obviously has to be something bad.

 

Anybody leaves, they would just be killed though. Like Jory, when he refused to go through the ritual.

[DDJ]

And thinking of heretical questions, suppose a child - perhaps a shepherd - happens to accidentally witness a joining ritual and sees something like one man dies drinking the blood and another is murdered for refusing.  What happens to the child if the Wardens catch him in the act?

 

Just another heretical thought.

[KaiserShep]

Well, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that they'd simply kill any witnesses, though it does beg the question as to how no one saw the spectacle that went on at Ostagar. I guess no one cared about Daveth and Jory to ask questions.

[DDJ]

Well, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that they'd simply kill any witnesses, though it does beg the question as to how no one saw the spectacle that went on at Ostagar. I guess no one cared about Daveth and Jory to ask questions.

 

And there we have it.  When absolute power is achieved it corrupts absolutely.  Yet any crime is justifiable for the greater good.  UGH!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The thing about that is not every mage is in a Circle tower. Many are out there on their own. Some with no training whatsoever.

The current system is a reactive one which Templars can only grab a mage when they learn of the mages existence.

A better idea would be to have the necessary information a mage needs to be common knowledge and easily attainable so that even the mages the Templars couldn't get their hands on would potentially become less of a threat to the public. The Chantry could give sermons on how to detect and resist demonic temptation and possession. It could be taught to soldiers and children in school. This information could be anywhere and everywhere and could quite possibly negate the need for a Circle in the first place.

Also, the threat of lifelong imprisonment and possibly death is a deterrent to people who need the training a Circle can provide. So they instead stay on the run and remain a threat to the public.

Take away the oppressive aspects of the Circle and many people would be more inclined to become a member and receive the training they need.

This doesn't mean that magic related threats would disappear but it could certainly lessen them a considerable degree.

The problem is that there are ways to get said training outside the Circle. Some of which are explicitly tolerated by the Templars, presumably for the same reasons you cite. (Though it probably doesn't hurt that the Mages Collective is bribing them with something the Templars are all addicted to.) And even with the official and unofficial channels open, the result is the dangerous world you see. Heck, it was such an unofficial channel that failed in Redcliffe; if Connor had been sent to the Circle instead a whole lot of Redcliffe's citizens could have been saved. And the Mages Collective also displayed a failure in the quest Have You Seen Me that could have been a serious problem if the Warden hadn't done the quest. I'm not saying that closing the unofficial channels is a good idea, but they aren't lessening the threat to the extent you seem to think they should. (Or else they are, and Thedas is really screwed if they get closed.) Still, completely abandoning the Circle in their favor seems like a bad idea, since when the unofficial channels fail they do so in ways that lead to abominations forming in cities or in unknown areas, where the Circles failing tends to lead to the Templars besieging the new threat in a known location and reserving the option of calling for backup.

 

 

And thinking of heretical questions, suppose a child - perhaps a shepherd - happens to accidentally witness a joining ritual and sees something like one man dies drinking the blood and another is murdered for refusing.  What happens to the child if the Wardens catch him in the act?

 

Just another heretical thought.

 

Probably something sad. Though arguably not something as sad as this secret getting out.

[DDJ]

The problem is that there are ways to get said training outside the Circle. Some of which are explicitly tolerated by the Templars, presumably for the same reasons you cite. (Though it probably doesn't hurt that the Mages Collective is bribing them with something the Templars are all addicted to.) And even with the official and unofficial channels open, the result is the dangerous world you see. Heck, it was such an unofficial channel that failed in Redcliffe; if Connor had been sent to the Circle instead a whole lot of Redcliffe's citizens could have been saved. And the Mages Collective also displayed a failure in the quest Have You Seen Me that could have been a serious problem if the Warden hadn't done the quest. I'm not saying that closing the unofficial channels is a good idea, but they aren't lessening the threat to the extent you seem to think they should. (Or else they are, and Thedas is really screwed if they get closed.) Still, completely abandoning the Circle in their favor seems like a bad idea, since when the unofficial channels fail they do so in ways that lead to abominations forming in cities or in unknown areas, where the Circles failing tends to lead to the Templars besieging the new threat in a known location and reserving the option of calling for backup.

 

 

 

Probably something sad. Though arguably not something as sad as this secret getting out.

 

Very likely, but I remain uncertain how many murders for the greater good become too many.  The Wardens definitely need to be checked or it will get sadder and far worse.  Varric sums it up in two words - murderous wardens.

 

As to the mages, I am not sure that I could support legalized slavery under any conditions.   

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Very likely, but I remain uncertain how many murders for the greater good become too many.  The Wardens definitely need to be checked or it will get sadder and far worse.  Varric sums it up in two words - murderous wardens.

 

As to the mages, I am not sure that I could support legalized slavery under any conditions.   

The Wardens do need someone to keep them honest. That someone does need to keep their eye on innocent lives. That said, that someone also needs to bear in mind that the number of murders acceptable to achieve a goal goes up as the goal gets to be a sufficiently great good. (Assuming that the murders are necessary, of course.) And the greater good in mind in this case is the world surviving.

 

Slavery is when you're forced to work. The mages aren't forced to work. They're forced to stay in one place, and some of them pitch in to keep that place working. Others find work someplace outside the Tower. And they all seem to be doing what they do voluntarily. Uldred for example was not known to be teaching even if he almost certainly was teaching (in a below board, corruptive capacity.) If he could be forced to work, he would probably have been stuck teaching in an above-board position since he was one of the ones thought to be loyal and known to be effective as a mage. Meanwhile First Enchanter Orsino's backstory (as I recall) was that he got the title (and responsibilities) of the First Enchanter because nobody else wanted them; in a system where work can be forced onto someone you wouldn't think that would matter much. Anyway, given that there doesn't seem to be any forced labor, you'd be more accurate if you called it a concentration camp... which, despite the connotations attached due to the legitimately unnecessary and destructive ones the Nazis set up in WWII*, are still a thing we have. People who are sick with something nasty can be forced into areas where they can be kept away from people they can accidentally hurt, not as punishment but as prevention; they are concentrated in a camp for public safety reasons.

 

*The US set up concentration camps, and I think they were called that at the time, but in my experience people usually call them internment camps, probably in order to downplay the similarities between the two systems. Anyway, "internment camps" is another thing the Circles could be called instead of slave camps that would be far more accurate. I imagine that doesn't sound very comforting, so to continue the argument, the US's were about as unnecessary as Germany's because of the absence of many of the factors that make mages truly dangerous. There was no indication that any of the interned prisoners wanted to harm the US (some mages do want to harm mundanes,) or would be any good at it if they did (even an untrained mage who wants to hurt someone can do it,) or that they could accidentally do serious harm to the US like a mage who goes abomination can to Thedas.

[DDJ]

The Wardens do need someone to keep them honest. That someone does need to keep their eye on innocent lives. That said, that someone also needs to bear in mind that the number of murders acceptable to achieve a goal goes up as the goal gets to be a sufficiently great good. (Assuming that the murders are necessary, of course.) And the greater good in mind in this case is the world surviving.

 

Slavery is when you're forced to work. The mages aren't forced to work. They're forced to stay in one place, and some of them pitch in to keep that place working. Others find work someplace outside the Tower. Uldred for example was not known to be teaching even if he almost certainly was teaching (in a below board, corruptive capacity.) If he could be forced to work, he would probably have been stuck teaching in an above-board position since he was one of the ones thought to be loyal and known to be effective as a mage. Anyway, given that there doesn't seem to be any forced labor, you'd be more accurate if you called it a concentration camp... which, despite the connotations attached due to the legitimately unnecessary and destructive ones the Nazis set up in WWII*, are still a thing we have. People who are sick with something nasty are forced into areas where they can be kept away from people they can accidentally hurt, not as punishment but as prevention; they are concentrated in a camp for public safety reasons.

 

*The US set up concentration camps, and I think they were called that at the time, but in my experience people usually call them internment camps, probably in order to downplay the similarities between the two systems. Anyway, "internment camps" is another thing they could be called instead of slave camps that would be far more accurate. The US were about as unnecessary as Germany's, since there was no indication that any of the interned prisoners wanted to harm the US, or would be any good at it if they did, or that they could accidentally do serious harm to us like a mage who goes abomination can.

 

And yet the bulk of the mages never use blood magic and do not go, to quote Sera, all demony.  Yet they are imprisoned and forced to do whatever the Templars want.  They cannot leave, and in the case of Gwynn, cannot raise a family of their own even in the tower.  It may not literally be slavery, but it is close enough that I really can't see much of a difference.  If one imprisons one for the potential to cause harm, then eventually all people will be imprisoned because potentially anyone can cause harm.  As to being forced to work, what is it if one cannot leave the tower or have a family but must fight in the wars to keep people free - except them of course - if not slavery?  I fail to see much of a difference.  If you refuse to go to a tower and are discovered, according to DA canon, you and those who harbor you, assuming their are some, are killed.  Rather like being a Warden.  Drink or die.  Serve or die.  After all, the greater good, as determined by those with what we have seen is flawed judgement, demands it.  That is my darker world view of course.  

 

As the Herald says, we cannot solve our problems with murder or, for that matter, the imprisonment and enslavement of innocents.  Just my opinion of course.  There should be a better way, but considering DA is set in an intolerant middle age, one supposes it is not going to happen.  That is why I always insure that Viv becomes Divine and Alastair king.  I am trying to force change where it is so badly needed.

 

I do not believe any murder is justifiable greater good or not.  There have been five blights.  How many innocents were murdered out of hand between them?  Bioware seems to ignore this part of the ugly truth.  Logically, since the Wardens have committed many crimes over the years, they should be kept in Towers like mages and trotted out for blights?  

[In Exile]

The Wardens do need someone to keep them honest. That someone does need to keep their eye on innocent lives. That said, that someone also needs to bear in mind that the number of murders acceptable to achieve a goal goes up as the goal gets to be a sufficiently great good. (Assuming that the murders are necessary, of course.) And the greater good in mind in this case is the world surviving.

 

Slavery is when you're forced to work. The mages aren't forced to work. They're forced to stay in one place, and some of them pitch in to keep that place working. Others find work someplace outside the Tower. And they all seem to be doing what they do voluntarily. Uldred for example was not known to be teaching even if he almost certainly was teaching (in a below board, corruptive capacity.) If he could be forced to work, he would probably have been stuck teaching in an above-board position since he was one of the ones thought to be loyal and known to be effective as a mage. Meanwhile First Enchanter Orsino's backstory (as I recall) was that he got the title (and responsibilities) of the First Enchanter because nobody else wanted them; in a system where work can be forced onto someone you wouldn't think that would matter much. Anyway, given that there doesn't seem to be any forced labor, you'd be more accurate if you called it a concentration camp... which, despite the connotations attached due to the legitimately unnecessary and destructive ones the Nazis set up in WWII*, are still a thing we have. People who are sick with something nasty can be forced into areas where they can be kept away from people they can accidentally hurt, not as punishment but as prevention; they are concentrated in a camp for public safety reasons.

 

*The US set up concentration camps, and I think they were called that at the time, but in my experience people usually call them internment camps, probably in order to downplay the similarities between the two systems. Anyway, "internment camps" is another thing the Circles could be called instead of slave camps that would be far more accurate. I imagine that doesn't sound very comforting, so to continue the argument, the US's were about as unnecessary as Germany's because of the absence of many of the factors that make mages truly dangerous. There was no indication that any of the interned prisoners wanted to harm the US (some mages do want to harm mundanes,) or would be any good at it if they did (even an untrained mage who wants to hurt someone can do it,) or that they could accidentally do serious harm to the US like a mage who goes abomination can to Thedas.

 

The Mages are forced to work. Well - that's not entirely true. First, they're forcibly lobotomized. Then they're forced to work lyrium. This is a total digression. Aslo I missed how we got to this digression. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I do not believe any murder is justifiable greater good or not.  There have been five blights.  How many innocents were murdered out of hand between them?

Fewer than can be lost if the Wardens effectiveness is compromised. You do get that they're trying to avert apocalypses, yes? Each of the Five Blights they ended is an immortal Old God attempting to destroy at least the entire continent, and the Joining is the main reason anyone can fight them with any degree of safety. It's also the only reason that anyone's able to kill the thing that keeps them on task. And the Joining really is a secret that cannot be widely known because of the number of people who would look askance at it. We've seen fanatical templars react violently to things the Wardens were more clearly within their rights to do. We know the common, uneducated people are violently opposed to magic even before blood is added to it. We know that the educated are not very much more open to blood magic, since the Chantry as a whole is so opposed to blood magic as to forbid academic dissections. A vitally necessary ritual and those who use it could really lose a lot of ground if the details of this ritual were known.

 

But just to see whether or not we're both wasting our time (on both this and the digression, since if you don't support this you will never support the Circles): do you remember that theoretical shepherd child you tried to change my mind with? Putting aside how unlikely this scenario is, assume for the sake of argument that you literally knew that that child had seen something they should not have. Assume further that you literally knew bribes and threats were not going to prevent this child from telling a peasant mob, who would come to destroy your Order. Assume that somehow, you literally knew that this would gain ground, and that the Grey Wardens would be destroyed and the ritual that makes it possible to slay Archdemons banned and forgotten. Assume that you knew that the best case scenario was the extinction of all life on the continent, and that's if the darkspawn can't tunnel under the oceans or build boats. Do you argue that the rule "don't kill innocents" is not worth breaking even at the cost of all of that? If so, neither of us can even understand where the other is coming from. If not, then one person every so often to keep the Wardens powerful enough to fight (again, this assumes it's necessary to get the goal; I don't support killing because it's merely easier than not) seems like a bargain.

[DDJ]

Fewer than can be lost if the Wardens effectiveness is compromised. You do get that they're trying to avert apocalypses, yes? Each of the Five Blights they ended is an immortal Old God attempting to destroy at least the entire continent, and the Joining is the main reason anyone can fight them with any degree of safety. It's also the only reason that anyone's able to kill the thing that keeps them on task. And the Joining really is a secret that cannot be widely known because of the number of people who would look askance at it. We've seen fanatical templars react violently to things the Wardens were more clearly within their rights to do. We know the common, uneducated people are violently opposed to magic even before blood is added to it. We know that the educated are not very much more open to blood magic, since the Chantry as a whole is so opposed to blood magic as to forbid academic dissections. A vitally necessary ritual and those who use it could really lose a lot of ground if the details of this ritual were known.

 

But just to see whether or not we're both wasting our time (on both this and the digression, since if you don't support this you will never support the Circles): do you remember that theoretical shepherd child you tried to change my mind with? Putting aside how unlikely this scenario is, assume for the sake of argument that you literally knew that that child had seen something they should not have. Assume further that you literally knew bribes and threats were not going to prevent this child from telling a peasant mob, who would come to destroy your Order. Assume that somehow, you literally knew that this would gain ground, and that the Grey Wardens would be destroyed and the ritual that makes it possible to slay Archdemons banned and forgotten. Assume that you knew that the best case scenario was the extinction of all life on the continent, and that's if the darkspawn can't tunnel under the oceans or build boats. Do you argue that the rule "don't kill innocents" is not worth breaking even at the cost of all of that? If so, neither of us can even understand where the other is coming from. If not, then one person every so often to keep the Wardens powerful enough to fight (again, this assumes it's necessary to get the goal; I don't support killing because it's merely easier than not) seems like a bargain.

 

 

Point taken.  I sincerely respect your opinion.  I will agree that the DA series of games is the best out there.  I hope they hurry up with DA4 - without sacrificing plot and controversy of course!