1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Point taken.  I sincerely respect your opinion.  I will agree that the DA series of games is the best out there.  I hope they hurry up with DA4 - without sacrificing plot and controversy of course!

Oh, Maker, yes.

 

Edit: As for the rest of it, I understand being leery about where the Wardens draw the line. I can get their logic, but even if I get why the Joining is secret, and get why they thought Jory had to die (though as I recall, part of what happened was Jory drawing first) and even think that Clarel's actions would have been worth it if the situation she was reacting to was real and not a setup, I really am scared of them losing track of "necessary evil" and getting into "expedient evil." And frick knows whether or not they'll be able to keep themselves at that level if they can't keep themselves at "necessary evil."

[ThePhoenixKing]

And thinking of heretical questions, suppose a child - perhaps a shepherd - happens to accidentally witness a joining ritual and sees something like one man dies drinking the blood and another is murdered for refusing.  What happens to the child if the Wardens catch him in the act?

 

Just another heretical thought.

 

That assumes, of course, that the Wardens are stupid enough to do the Joining out in the open where anyone can see them, which isn't the case. After all, at Ostagar, the Joining takes place in "the old temple", a place where none of the King's soldiers would be going (or indeed have any reason to go), and where they can conduct the ritual in relative privacy. I'm entirely certain that the Wardens aren't leaving the continent strewn with murder victims every time they have recruits go through the Joining when they could simply do it behind closed doors, for the sake of expediency alone.

[DDJ]

Point taken.  I sincerely respect your opinion.  I will agree that the DA series of games is the best out there.  I hope they hurry up with DA4 - without sacrificing plot and controversy of course!

 

UGH.  I forgot to answer your hypothesis.  No one can know all the ends of course as some of the less than stellar decisions I have made in real life - no reset button here - attest.  But what if you knew all that you note but also knew that he would grow up to end the 6th Blight AND find a cure for the calling.  It is an extremely murky issue, and I expect there is no right answer.

 

Again I look forward to DA4 and more highly controversial topics to discuss.

[DDJ]

Oh, Maker, yes.

 

Edit: As for the rest of it, I understand being leery about where the Wardens draw the line. I can get their logic, but even if I get why the Joining is secret, and get why they thought Jory had to die (though as I recall, part of what happened was Jory drawing first) and even think that Clarel's actions would have been worth it if the situation she was reacting to was real and not a setup, I really am scared of them losing track of "necessary evil" and getting into "expedient evil." And frick knows whether or not they'll be able to keep themselves at that level if they can't keep themselves at "necessary evil."

 

This is an exceptional point.  Cassandra points out in her dialogue on the Seekers that at some point power becomes its own master.  I hope the Wardens take that lesson to heart.

 

As to DA4, perhaps we should start an exalted march to Bioware to keep them focused!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

UGH.  I forgot to answer your hypothesis.  No one can know all the ends of course as some of the less than stellar decisions I have made in real life - no reset button here - attest.  But what if you knew all that you note but also knew that he would grow up to end the 6th Blight AND find a cure for the calling.  It is an extremely murky issue, and I expect there is no right answer.

It is a complicated issue, and the answers are less "right and wrong" and more "more and less optimal," but in the interest of seeing whether or not we were even able to agree I cut out a lot of that.

 

Suppose for the sake of argument you absolutely knew that not killing him would mean the secret is out, and further suppose that you knew that that would doom the continent. Ignoring the fact that even if that one straw could break the camel's back without having a whole bale under it the Warden wouldn't know that: if the situation was absolutely, unambiguously as simple as "either he dies, or the continent and possibly the entire world is doomed," what would you say the Warden should do there?

[DDJ]

It is a complicated issue, and the answers are less "right and wrong" and more "more and less optimal," but in the interest of seeing whether or not we were even able to agree I cut out a lot of that.

 

Suppose for the sake of argument you absolutely knew that not killing him would mean the secret is out, and further suppose that you knew that that would doom the continent. Ignoring the fact that even if that one straw could break the camel's back without having a whole bale under it the Warden wouldn't know that: if the situation was absolutely, unambiguously as simple as "either he dies, or the continent and possibly the entire world is doomed," what would you say the Warden should do there?

 

My suspicion is that the secret is already out.  The Ash Warriors appeared to know it as did the dwarves, and the effects are well discussed in the game.  So, if I knew absolutely that it would doom the continent etc., I would have to kill him.  That said, I really can't know this.  If it were the only instance, perhaps, but there are plenty of others.  Still it makes for good conversation.  So, what do you say - an Exalted March on Bioware to keep them focused?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So, if I knew absolutely that it would doom the continent etc., I would have to kill him.  That said, I really can't know this.  If it were the only instance, perhaps, but there are plenty of others.  Still it makes for good conversation.

The point wasn't whether or not this would actually happen, so much as whether or not you're willing to acknowledge that the very basic idea of killing to save others lives is justifiable. If you don't, then of course the Wardens are not justified in a lot of what they do. If you do, then it gets to be murky. A lot of the Wardens actions, while repulsive, probably do save lives. And if Jory were to tell everyone what the Joining was and why Daveth was dead, that would not be good for morale in a battle that was already looking bad. And it's hard to keep him quiet without killing him. He'll probably tell everyone he meets, and you can't very well keep him away from literally everyone who is not a Warden.

 

I suppose that even if you do acknowledge the basic idea, though, it is all a matter of where you draw the line. The little shepherd boy, for example, is a little bit unfortunate even if it gets to be as unambiguous as I made it, and complicating factors do just that.

 

My suspicion is that the secret is already out.  The Ash Warriors appeared to know it as did the dwarves, and the effects are well discussed in the game.

I suspect that the very highest ranking members of the Templars know it as well. They would probably be interested in knowing why the Wardens can do the things they can unless they already knew and had a reason not to make an issue of it.

 

As for the dwarves, they wouldn't care much. They respect the Wardens that (arguably) use Blood Magic, and don't care for the Chantry that forbids it. Anora knows, but assuming that her own University is built on the Orlesian model it would weaken the Chantry's grasp on knowledge, so that's weak evidence that she doesn't care much for their restrictions. Though to build on Anora knowing: while Maric was apparently known to have been deliberately kept in the dark about a lot of things at first, and Loghain certainly was, I remember reading a fan theory that the usual arrangement with heads of state is to let them know the important Grey Warden secrets, partially because they need to know not to interfere and to prevent others from doing so. (Which, again, some people totally would. Leaving aside how serious the Wardens would lose if it were known to the uneducated and to fanatics like Rylock, they would lose something.)

[DDJ]

The point wasn't whether or not this would actually happen, so much as whether or not you're willing to acknowledge that the very basic idea of killing to save others lives is justifiable. If you don't, then of course the Wardens are not justified in a lot of what they do. If you do, then it gets to be murky. A lot of the Wardens actions, while repulsive, probably do save lives. And if Jory were to tell everyone what the Joining was and why Daveth was dead, that would not be good for morale in a battle that was already looking bad. And it's hard to keep him quiet without killing him. He'll probably tell everyone he meets, and you can't very well keep him away from literally everyone who is not a Warden.

 

I suppose that even if you do acknowledge the basic idea, though, it is all a matter of where you draw the line. The little shepherd boy, for example, is a little bit unfortunate even if it gets to be as unambiguous as I made it, and complicating factors do just that.

 

I suspect that the very highest ranking members of the Templars know it as well. They would probably be interested in knowing why the Wardens can do the things they can unless they already knew and had a reason not to make an issue of it.

 

As for the dwarves, they wouldn't care much. They respect the Wardens that (arguably) use Blood Magic, and don't care for the Chantry that forbids it. Anora knows, but assuming that her own University is built on the Orlesian model it would weaken the Chantry's grasp on knowledge, so that's weak evidence that she doesn't care much for their restrictions. Though to build on Anora knowing: while Maric was apparently known to have been deliberately kept in the dark about a lot of things at first, and Loghain certainly was, I remember reading a fan theory that the usual arrangement with heads of state is to let them know the important Grey Warden secrets, partially because they need to know not to interfere and to prevent others from doing so. (Which, again, some people totally would. Leaving aside how serious the Wardens would lose if it were known to the uneducated and to fanatics like Rylock, they would lose something.)

 

Very well put.  If they were not controversial we would not have this conversation.  But you missed the really important question - an exalted march on Bioware?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Very well put.  If they were not controversial we would not have this conversation.  But you missed the really important question - an exalted march on Bioware?

Oh, whoops.

 

Well, I don't know that that's justified yet. But talk to me again if DA4 reaches developer hell.

[DDJ]

Oh, whoops.

 

Well, I don't know that that's justified yet. But talk to me again if DA4 reaches developer hell.

 

An exalted march could keep them focused and avoid developer hell@!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

An exalted march could keep them focused and avoid developer hell@!

Yeah, but it's not strictly necessary until it gets there, or gets close to there. And an Exalted March is something probably best saved for when it is necessary.

[DDJ]

You know, being filled with heretical thoughts, I am not sure I would banish the Wardens beyond the adult supervision bit that I mentioned at one time.  It is apparently well known that they head for the Deep Roads when they are dying, so my thoughts turn to this.  In DAI we find the journal of a Warden who apparently is dying and on their own,  - a female if I do not miss my bet.  Anyway, let us consider those Wardens who do not encounter the spawn.  Everyone says that they die "in honorable combat."  Perhaps, but what if they are so twisted that they fight with the spawn as B. Feddic says in one of his conversations with the Warden.  What if they simply turn into darkspawn, peerless warrior darkspawn.  And the females.  Obviously considering the fate of the dwarf and human in DAO and Awakening, the spawn remake tainted women into brood mothers.  So now you have the spawn making intelligent broodmothers who produce peerless warriors that were once real people.  In short, the Wardens could be inadvertently aiding the spawn.  After all, no one really knows what happens to them when they wander off on their own.  Perhaps they should simply kill the Wardens rather than take the chance.  I would hate to think of a female HOF spawning a race a super spawn.  Perhaps the architect is a product of this.  After all, Wardens deliberately consume the evil that drives the spawn, not merely catch it.

 

Just a thought;

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Perhaps the architect is a product of this.

Apparently there's something in WoT to the effect that he was the High Priest of Urthemiel. I'd rather this had come out through the games, but whatever.

 

 

But yeah. Yeah, the Wardens have almost certainly been adding a few new ghouls to the darkspawn ranks. Though the way the Calling works could very well mean that the potential-ghoul dies instead, and even if it doesn't, they almost certainly kill enough darkspawn doing it to more than make up for the new ghoul. (Especially since as I recall "the lifespan of a ghoul is measured in months."

 

Edit: having looked up that quote, it turns out I forgot a "usually" that I was supposed to put in there.

[DDJ]

Apparently there's something in WoT to the effect that he was the High Priest of Urthemiel. I'd rather this had come out through the games, but whatever.

 

 

But yeah. Yeah, the Wardens have almost certainly been adding a few new ghouls to the darkspawn ranks. Though the way the Calling works could very well mean that the potential-ghoul dies instead, and even if it doesn't, they almost certainly kill enough darkspawn doing it to more than make up for the new ghoul. (Especially since as I recall "the lifespan of a ghoul is measured in months."

 

Edit: having looked up that quote, it turns out I forgot a "usually" that I was supposed to put in there.

 

That is a fair point if the Warden is becoming a ghoul, but if they are not because of the magic involved in the ritual and the addition of archdemon blood to it, they might actually becoming the very thing that they hate.  If darkspawn do not live natural lifespans it could well be that the commanding general in the next blight is the HoF - for the spawn or, if the warden became a broodmother, a horde led by peerless and intelligent warrior darkspawn spawned by the HoF .  Hence, I think no Deep Roads.  

[DDJ]

That is a fair point if the Warden is becoming a ghoul, but if they are not because of the magic involved in the ritual and the addition of archdemon blood to it, they might actually becoming the very thing that they hate.  If darkspawn do not live natural lifespans it could well be that the commanding general in the next blight is the HoF - for the spawn or, if the warden became a broodmother, a horde led by peerless and intelligent warrior darkspawn spawned by the HoF .  Hence, I think no Deep Roads.  

 

And this leads me to another heretical thought.  What if the Wardens are not protecting the secret of the joining - which of course is not much of a secret anymore since the dwarves and others seem to know about it.  What if they are really protecting the secret that the Wardens do not become ghouls.  What if they are actually protecting the secret that they are turning into spawn?  I lived through the time when the draft was abolished and the US went to an all volunteer army.  There are always those willing to fight for various reasons a- country, family whatever.  So, if it is not secret, why keep it so?  AND, perhaps Flemeth being as immortal as it gets oversaw the saving of the old gods' souls in the first four blights as she did in the fifth.  Interesting.  That would mean that the Wardens are not quite that which we thought.  After all, we only know about the fifth blight, not the first four.  So, given the real secrecy of this, it is a possibility.  

 

Just another heretical thought.

[Treacherous J Slither]

About the shepherd boy: I'd simply convince him that what we do is necessary and push him to become a Warden himself.

Also, if the Wardens knew that they become darkspawn I doubt they would go into the tunnels at all. The order has existed for centuries and they would probably have some form of ritualized suicide for those on their way out. People as dedicated as they are wouldn't knowingly add to the ranks of their enemy.

[Treacherous J Slither]

The problem is that there are ways to get said training outside the Circle. Some of which are explicitly tolerated by the Templars, presumably for the same reasons you cite. (Though it probably doesn't hurt that the Mages Collective is bribing them with something the Templars are all addicted to.) And even with the official and unofficial channels open, the result is the dangerous world you see. Heck, it was such an unofficial channel that failed in Redcliffe; if Connor had been sent to the Circle instead a whole lot of Redcliffe's citizens could have been saved. And the Mages Collective also displayed a failure in the quest Have You Seen Me that could have been a serious problem if the Warden hadn't done the quest. I'm not saying that closing the unofficial channels is a good idea, but they aren't lessening the threat to the extent you seem to think they should. (Or else they are, and Thedas is really screwed if they get closed.) Still, completely abandoning the Circle in their favor seems like a bad idea, since when the unofficial channels fail they do so in ways that lead to abominations forming in cities or in unknown areas, where the Circles failing tends to lead to the Templars besieging the new threat in a known location and reserving the option of calling for backup.




Probably something sad. Though arguably not something as sad as this secret getting out.

Accidents happen. There's no way to avoid it. Some mages will simply never see the inside of a Circle tower.

Also, some mages WILL be tricked or seduced by demons. Even if they received the necessary training. There's no getting around it.

However, I believe that the numbers can go down if the needed information was common knowledge. That way people will know to handle the situation even if they never actually encounter it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Accidents happen. There's no way to avoid it. Some mages will simply never see the inside of a Circle tower.

Also, some mages WILL be tricked or seduced by demons. Even if they received the necessary training. There's no getting around it.

However, I believe that the numbers can go down if the needed information was common knowledge. That way people will know to handle the situation even if they never actually encounter it.

"Accidents happen" is arguably a point in my favor, since I'm arguing in favor of trying to make sure as many of those accidents happen away from civilians and surrounded by templars and mages as possible. Three such accidents in a Tower are unlikely to kill as many people as Connor did, and there will certainly be fewer civilians in the number. Sure, some of these accidents will happen in civilian areas anyway, but what you advocate for means they all will.

 

And again: it's not like it's impossible for apostates to get proper training as it is. Which probably helps.

[DDJ]

Accidents happen. There's no way to avoid it. Some mages will simply never see the inside of a Circle tower.

Also, some mages WILL be tricked or seduced by demons. Even if they received the necessary training. There's no getting around it.

However, I believe that the numbers can go down if the needed information was common knowledge. That way people will know to handle the situation even if they never actually encounter it.

 

I totally agree on these points.  Judging a class of people as a whole uses stereotypes - a convenient excuse for those wanting power but hardly realistic or fair.  Of course, the chantry does not claim to be fair, only enlightened and infallible.  

[DDJ]

About the shepherd boy: I'd simply convince him that what we do is necessary and push him to become a Warden himself.

Also, if the Wardens knew that they become darkspawn I doubt they would go into the tunnels at all. The order has existed for centuries and they would probably have some form of ritualized suicide for those on their way out. People as dedicated as they are wouldn't knowingly add to the ranks of their enemy.

 

And there you have it - if the Wardens knew.  Their single avowed goal is to stop Blights caring about nothing else as they have demonstrated.  I am left with the impression that the only two things they really know about the taint are that it kills an archdemon - perhaps - and that it kills the tainted individual with a kind of leprosy / madness.  Solas says as much.  What we do know about them is that they can be murderous, treacherous and will sacrifice anyone and everyone given the right motivation to achieve that goal.  That they are dangerous and, as I see it, fanatical is beyond question.  Small wonder then that they would attempt to keep such knowledge from the hands of everyone.  Their right of conscription would be severely curtailed, and their recruits would need to be of an identical mindset.  It is disturbing at the least.

 

Just a thought.

[Dabrikishaw]

I've never gotten what was so  "heretical" about not liking the Grey Warden order.

[DDJ]

I've never gotten what was so  "heretical" about not liking the Grey Warden order.

 

Not about disliking it, but about what secrets they are really keeping.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I totally agree on these points.  Judging a class of people as a whole uses stereotypes - a convenient excuse for those wanting power but hardly realistic or fair.  Of course, the chantry does not claim to be fair, only enlightened and infallible.  

"Mages can turn into abominations" is not a stereotype. It is a fact. It would be a stereotype if I claimed most of them do, which I don't; my claim that potential-abominations are worth trying to keep out of civilian areas is not that they go off often, but that if even one abomination forms there's no guarantee that civilian area (and more to the point anyone in it) will remain viable.

[Scuttlebutt101]

There's something I've been wondering, somewhat unrelated to the current discussion - who the hell gave Inquisitor the right to exile someone from the lands that don't belong to them? If anything this should have been the decision of the Orlesian monarch. So there's another reason to not banish them - the Emperor/Empress might not appreciate the Inquisition acting like they own the place on their territory, and it could also damage the Inquisition's reputation among other nobles. Trespasser has shown that the nobles don't like the Inquisition operating on their territory unchecked, even though the situation with the Wardens wasn't mentioned IIRC. Even aside from the legal issues, I just don't think it's the Inquisitor's place to decide something like that - Wardens have been around for centuries, they're the reason Thedas is still standing and they will be needed for at least as long as there are any Old Gods left to taint (nothing I've seen in this topic has convinced me that there are any viable alternatives against Blights atm). the Inquisition has only just popped up after being comatose for 800 years and has become redundant after Corypheus' defeat. For an upstart chantry splinter group, it has gotten away with an awful lot during the course of the game, imo.

[DDJ]

"Mages can turn into abominations" is not a stereotype. It is a fact. It would be a stereotype if I claimed most of them do, which I don't; my claim that potential-abominations are worth trying to keep out of civilian areas is not that they go off often, but that if even one abomination forms there's no guarantee that civilian area (and more to the point anyone in it) will remain viable.

You are right and I apologize for any confusion.  The chantry treats all mages the same regardless despite the major differences between say Bethany Hawke and Morrigan.  That is what I meant by stereotypes.  They also imprison mages - no family allowed of course and tranquil any who "can't control" themselves or, as in Kirkwall, question.  If you aren't in the towers you are huinted down and killed.  That is a stereotype.  Knowledge and education are the key, but as noted, this is a medieval society and we are likely to only see more intolerance.  Sorry for any confusion.