Without meta knowledge i would exile the wardens,sorry but my Inquisitor do not know that they are necessary to destroy an archdemon.That is why they must reveal to the world at least this secret,this is a great disservice to the heroes who sacrificed themselves to kill the archdemons of the past and the whole world should know on how they died.So 1 word Stupid Grey Wardens who cannot even honor their US wardens.
The "if roleplaying, exile" argument makes sense. The problem is that they can't reveal to the world the "sacrifice themselves to kill the Archdemon" thing because it sounds too much like Blood Magic.
The "if roleplaying, exile" argument makes sense. The problem is that they can't reveal to the world the "sacrifice themselves to kill the Archdemon" thing because it sounds too much like Blood Magic.
They don't need to say that part. They just need to say that only a Grey Warden can kill the AD, because they have a special anti-AD killing potion or something that only people who become Grey Wardens can use. It lasts a lifetime, and it might kill you when you take it. Just like a healing potion, and the neighborhood shoe merchant has one of those.
Their problem isn't the lying, it's that they don't come up with better lies.
They don't need to say that part. They just need to say that only a Grey Warden can kill the AD, because they have a special anti-AD killing potion or something that only people who become Grey Wardens can use. It lasts a lifetime, and it might kill you when you take it. Just like a healing potion, and the neighborhood shoe merchant has one of those.
Their problem isn't the lying, it's that they don't come up with better lies.
Obvious response to that lie: "What do you mean 'become a Grey Warden?' What is it about being a Warden that lets you take that potion?"
Every Blight so far had been ended by Grey Wardens, that has to make people consider think that Wardens have some kind of advantage over regular soldiers when it comes to killing darkspawn and Archdemons. From what I've gathered from playing the games, most people do actually believe that Wardens are crucial to ending Blights, while cases like Loghain are less common, imo.
They don't need to say that part. They just need to say that only a Grey Warden can kill the AD, because they have a special anti-AD killing potion or something that only people who become Grey Wardens can use. It lasts a lifetime, and it might kill you when you take it.
Might as well just fill the general population in on the Joining. One of the reasons why it's kept secret is that if people knew that joining the Wardens means that you can die right after being recruited, there would be a lot less volunteers.
Obvious response to that lie: "What do you mean 'become a Grey Warden?' What is it about being a Warden that lets you take that potion?"
That's already a problem they have. But, to be honest, I'm not exactly seeing the issue with Grey Warden Incorporated selling "Joining in a Vial" commercially being an issue. It either kills you or turns you into a ghoul, and it's not as if Thedosian science is advanced enough for them to figure out that the long-term becoming a ghoul is a side effect.
The Grey Wardens as an organization serve absolutely no purpose apart from having been the only ones to get their act together long enough. It makes perfect sense for each sovereign nation to control the process and create their own anti-blight troops.
Every Blight so far had been ended by Grey Wardens, that has to make people consider think that Wardens have some kind of advantage over regular soldiers when it comes to killing darkspawn and Archdemons. From what I've gathered from playing the games, most people do actually believe that Wardens are crucial to ending Blights, while cases like Loghain are less common, imo.
Might as well just fill the general population in on the Joining. One of the reasons why it's kept secret is that if people knew that joining the Wardens means that you can die right after being recruited, there would be a lot less volunteers.
People think GWs are good at fighting the blight. That doesn't help. Loghain doesn't respect them because he's really competent. When you make your selling point competence, that makes you replacleable in the eyes of people who either don't see it or think they're good enough to do it without you.
As for the Joining, as Jory proves, that can't be the reason. Jory is a coward who isn't fit to be a GW. He's mentally incapable of it. The people it would scare away in times where there isn't a blight going on are the people who are completley unfit to be GWs. And when there is a blight, well... the Joining and the quick death is a preferable alternative to darkspawn, really.
Every Blight so far had been ended by Grey Wardens, that has to make people consider think that Wardens have some kind of advantage over regular soldiers when it comes to killing darkspawn and Archdemons. From what I've gathered from playing the games, most people do actually believe that Wardens are crucial to ending Blights, while cases like Loghain are less common, imo.
Which is strange since Loghain's logic makes sense. The Wardens make an extraordinary claim without sufficient proof. The only public-domain evidence that the Wardens are literally necessary is that they ended all four previous Blights, which comes to five early into the series. That's not very good evidence even if you accept that the history that claims it is true.
That people who should be smart enough to wonder if and why appear to accept it seemingly unthinkingly is part of why the fan-theory I mentioned before, where heads of state and the highest ranking Templars know the secrets in most cases, makes sense to me.
I spent a great deal of time thinking on the Wardens and the mages since my last post. They claim that they have stopped the blight four times. It is part of the Bioware canon. Yet in DAO we learn that there is at least one other way of stopping them with the child. So here is one conversation I imagined that will never appear in the games. Imagine speaking with a Warden. "How do you kill an archdemon?" Warden: "I can't tell you that. It is a secret of the Order." Hmmm. "Well then why should I believe you?" Warden: "Because I say so." This is a pretty circular argument, and as we get deeper into the series I am beginning to wonder if the Wardens actually ended the first four blights or if they only had a good publicist. I freely admit that I am not overly enamored of their join or die philosophy or their get out of jail free card every time they commit another atrocity. From what I have seen, and for all we know, Flemeth could well have had one of her daughters pregnant at each and every blight's conclusion.
I am not certain I buy into the theory, and it is a good one, that heads of state know the secret. Consider "good king Alastair" in this hypothetical scenario. One of the most powerful banns in Ferelden returns home to discover that his wife and children have been killed by the Wardens. A survivor tells him that his six year old son accidentally saw a joining ritual and was discovered. The Wardens put him out of the way "for the greater good" The bann goes to head of state A who tells him sorry, it was for the greater good. My reaction is fairly straight forward. First I am going to hunt down and kill those responsible. I will never aid good king Alastair again, and if the opportunity for justice in his case comes I will take it. Since I don't really believe they are necessary - such as Loghain did not - and since I really don't care since they butchered my family, they are toast. What I won't do is say, oh they are grey wardens. Guess I should just accept the murder of my wife, minor children and those who defended them. I would never forgive them for it.
I spent a great deal of time thinking on the Wardens and the mages since my last post. They claim that they have stopped the blight four times. It is part of the Bioware canon. Yet in DAO we learn that there is at least one other way of stopping them with the child. So here is one conversation I imagined that will never appear in the games. Imagine speaking with a Warden. "How do you kill an archdemon?" Warden: "I can't tell you that. It is a secret of the Order." Hmmm. "Well then why should I believe you?" Warden: "Because I say so." This is a pretty circular argument, and as we get deeper into the series I am beginning to wonder if the Wardens actually ended the first four blights or if they only had a good publicist. I freely admit that I am not overly enamored of their join or die philosophy or their get out of jail free card every time they commit another atrocity. From what I have seen, and for all we know, Flemeth could well have had one of her daughters pregnant at each and every blight's conclusion.
Well, apparently we have Word of Gaider that Flemeth's ritual only works if a Grey Warden strikes the final blow, though obviously it doesn't have to be the child's father. So if you accept WoG (and I completely understand those who don't) Wardens are still necessary. Adding to that, there is a book that narrates among other things the end of the Fourth Blight and which apparently gives no hint that the Old God in question was saved by Flemeth. So, there's dubiously canon word that they're still necessary, and adding to that we know they ended at least the Fourth Blight from an actually-canon work.
I think I also remember a conversation like what you describe wanting to see. The other end of the conversation is Blackwall, and while I don't remember having the option to state disbelief he was being shifty enough that I think you can reasonably decide your Inquisitor would not believe it. And if you decide that, you can certainly headcanon that that's part of why your Inquisitor decided as they did with the Grey Wardens. Is that close enough?
I am not certain I buy into the theory, and it is a good one, that heads of state know the secret. Consider "good king Alastair" in this hypothetical scenario. One of the most powerful banns in Ferelden returns home to discover that his wife and children have been killed by the Wardens. A survivor tells him that his six year old son accidentally saw a joining ritual and was discovered. The Wardens put him out of the way "for the greater good" The bann goes to head of state A who tells him sorry, it was for the greater good. My reaction is fairly straight forward. First I am going to hunt down and kill those responsible. I will never aid good king Alastair again, and if the opportunity for justice in his case comes I will take it. Since I don't really believe they are necessary - such as Loghain did not - and since I really don't care since they butchered my family, they are toast. What I won't do is say, oh they are grey wardens. Guess I should just accept the murder of my wife, minor children and those who defended them. I would never forgive them for it.
I'm not sure how this works as an argument that the kings don't know the secrets. It's a good story idea (barring the question of whether the Wardens would truly be careless enough to need to kill the six year old, and subsequently whether they would let there be a survivor when they ran damage control,) but whether or not the heads of state know the secret isn't relevant until the bit where they actually ask King Alistair to help them seek justice. (Although I gotta say, I would not want to be King Alistair on that day. That can't be a fun thing to juggle, especially if you do know the Wardens secrets and why they're necessary.)
Well, apparently we have Word of Gaider that Flemeth's ritual only works if a Grey Warden strikes the final blow, though obviously it doesn't have to be the child's father. So if you accept WoG (and I completely understand those who don't) Wardens are still necessary. Adding to that, there is a book that narrates among other things the end of the Fourth Blight and which apparently gives no hint that the Old God in question was saved by Flemeth. So, there's dubiously canon word that they're still necessary, and adding to that we know they ended at least the Fourth Blight from an actually-canon work.
Based on what Morrigan tells us, it has to be a Warden, because the taint has to work as a conduit for the OG soul. Without the taint as a conduit, the whole thing breaks down, and the OG soul just jumps into another darkspawn, and we get OG 2, electric bugaboo or whatever.
A-lot of reasons.
1: Grey wardens are knowledgeable when it comes to dealing with the Dark Spawn. They know how to kill them.
2: I have nothing against blood magic users. Most of those people that use that are are really good.
3:
Blame this guy. He made other wardens who were afraid of being corrupted or taken over by Corypheus by making them believe that his way was the right way. Sure they were idiots for falling for it but when someone is afraid they are easy to be controlled. Watch STAR WARS EPISODE 3. I don't fully blame the wardens I just blame the guy for taking advantage of a big group of people.
4: You play as a warden hero in DAO/DAA. Your character killed the archdemon. They did some good and they still can do some good.
5: Liliana worked with your warden hero in DAO. I can't hate her for helping kill a arch demon only to do something else.
6: Morrigan worked with your warden hero in DAO. I can't hate her for helping kill a arch demon only to do something else.
7: Alister in one playthrough of mine was in charge. Sure he can be scatter brained here and there but he means well. He's about justice regardless of his occupation wether it being templar, ex templar, grey warden or ex grey warden.
8: Logain (in a playthrough of mine) seem like a changed man. He was about justice and exposing the true evil and who was trying to make grey wardens do evil stuff at all costs.
They're a valuable resource, Clarel was a shithead but just because a few apples are bad doesn't mean the barrel is rotten.
They're a valuable resource, Clarel was a shithead but just because a few apples are bad doesn't mean the barrel is rotten.
That is very true, but rot spreads.
That is very true, but rot spreads.
In all fairness, all Wardens who weren't under the thralls of Corypheus defected to the Inquisition when the situation was explained.
Incidentally, I question the wisdom of telling the world about the Joining and its relationship to Archdemons. Telling Andrastian Thedas that their organization does a blood ritual using the blood of Darkspawn and Archdemons to turn into really slowly decaying Ghouls seems... bad.
In all fairness, all Wardens who weren't under the thralls of Corypheus defected to the Inquisition when the situation was explained.
Incidentally, I question the wisdom of telling the world about the Joining and its relationship to Archdemons. Telling Andrastian Thedas that their organization does a blood ritual using the blood of Darkspawn and Archdemons to turn into really slowly decaying Ghouls seems... bad.
The joining isn't blood magic it simply the use of the potency of the darkspawn taint to affect an individual.They should tell everything about the archdemons so that someone may find a better solution of the US to deal with them,but they just want the monopoly over the blights.
All things considered, they should have a monopoly on fighting the blight. I'm not even talking about the joining or them having the taint, but from what I saw about the 4th Blight shows me that Joining or otherwise they're the only ones that can fight it because they're the only ones fighting it day in and day out even between blights. Wardens also seek non-Warden aid in between Blights, during the Mage-Templar war, they use disaffected mages as scholars and they use non-tainted Templars to investigate Clarel's whereabouts.
Incidentally, whether or not the Joining is true blood magic is semantics, they're drinking a magic blood potion to turn themselves into ghouls- there's scenario that ends well for them.
edit: yo wtf, Gaider says the Joining is blood magic, get outta here with that "isn't bood magic" bs.
The Mages are forced to work. Well - that's not entirely true. First, they're forcibly lobotomized. Then they're forced to work lyrium. This is a total digression. Aslo I missed how we got to this digression.
This is extremely misleading though. Not all mages are, and we can look at Wynne for an example, if we really needed one. In order for this statement to be true, every single mage in a Circle would have had to have been made Tranquil. Since we know that this is not the case...
The Joining makes people infertile, gives them 30 years of life at most and fills your head with constant nightmares and a song that eventually overpowers your mind.
It can also be fatal, with a remarkably low level of survival.
I dont think people would start to queue to join the Wardens if they knew the secrets of the Order. Like Loghain said, some secrets are too dangerous to reveal.
Either the Wardens or someone else come up with a better solution to vanquish the Blight and cure the taint or thee's simply no other solution than to let the Order remain mysterious.
I have followed this topic for a long time, and it occurs to me that one thing Anders says about the mages in DA2 likely applies to Wardens, namely that the mages kept in their "circles" have a high rate of suicide. What about the Wardens? Forgetting that they are forced into suicide in the Deep Roads for a moment, how many of them commit suicide when they realize their only future is as a ghoul. How many of the renegades from the Wardens "spill the beans" to their loved ones so that steps to avoid conscription take place. How many murders "for the greater good" do the decent, moral wardens tolerate before taking action? Just pondering, but if the character of the individual does not change and they are lured into joining the Order based on whatever, a high moral character would either be swiftly subverted or eliminated. The Wardens preserve their secrets after all no matter what the cost.
I am just curious what the real cost has been. Perhaps Tevinter's description in DAI of his homeland could be applied to the Wardens as well considering their deceitfulness and Fiona's warnings. Somehow the longer I think of the Wardens the less attractive they seem. Now I am back to exile or not again since execute does not seem to be an option. I suppose I will keep them but perhaps in some form of forced labor circle.
Just random thoughts.
I have followed this topic for a long time, and it occurs to me that one thing Anders says about the mages in DA2 likely applies to Wardens, namely that the mages kept in their "circles" have a high rate of suicide. What about the Wardens? Forgetting that they are forced into suicide in the Deep Roads for a moment, how many of them commit suicide when they realize their only future is as a ghoul. How many of the renegades from the Wardens "spill the beans" to their loved ones so that steps to avoid conscription take place. How many murders "for the greater good" do the decent, moral wardens tolerate before taking action? Just pondering, but if the character of the individual does not change and they are lured into joining the Order based on whatever, a high moral character would either be swiftly subverted or eliminated. The Wardens preserve their secrets after all no matter what the cost.
I am just curious what the real cost has been. Perhaps Tevinter's description in DAI of his homeland could be applied to the Wardens as well considering their deceitfulness and Fiona's warnings. Somehow the longer I think of the Wardens the less attractive they seem. Now I am back to exile or not again since execute does not seem to be an option. I suppose I will keep them but perhaps in some form of forced labor circle.
Just random thoughts.
Well, while this is all an interesting question, and the Wardens might have a high suicide rate, I'm still going to have to default back to my "less than the cost of their failing or not existing would be" answer to the question "what is the cost?" I'm willing to rethink that if given reason to, but I doubt that's going to happen. For example, while what you describe in this post is pretty nasty, it's not as bad as what probably happens to Denerim in Darkspawn Chronicles after the sole surviving Warden has finished failing at his job. (Partially though not entirely because Denerim has more people than the one person or even whole family that die in your scenarios.)
As for the Wardens seeming less attractive the more you look, that sounds about right. The impression we were supposed to get from the start was "more attractive than the darkspawn-induced end of the world, and working to prevent it."
They're a valuable resource, Clarel was a shithead but just because a few apples are bad doesn't mean the barrel is rotten.
That is very true, but rot spreads.
Well i don't blame her at all. She believed (Avernus? Whatever his name was) in his ways was the way to go. Since she was in charge she chose to lead the Grey wardens down a path of darkness. I hate to do it again but It's like STAR WARS episodes 4-6 with Darth Vader. since he was still mad about losing Padame and still thought he had no kids he was still loyal to the Palpitine and did what Palpitine wanted. However after knowing that his kids were still alive he started having doubts about being a "bad guy". Since his son didn't want to side with Darth's evil force and even kill him deep down this blew away Darth Vader. Moral to the point is I don't blame the puppet (Darth vader/Carel) but the puppet master (Palpitine, The evil grey warden guy).
Why you shouldn't exile wardens?
Well because you can get rid off them and your enemies at the same time. 
Though war table missions doesn't seem to stick in epilogue. 
Without metagaming, personally i can't find any to not do so, sadly game doesn't allow you to be smart and replace them .
Why you shouldn't exile wardens?
Well because you can get rid off them and your enemies at the same time.
Though war table missions doesn't seem to stick in epilogue.
Without metagaming, personally i can't find any to not do so, sadly game doesn't allow you to be smart and replace them .
As for the Wardens seeming less attractive the more you look, that sounds about right. The impression we were supposed to get from the start was "more attractive than the darkspawn-induced end of the world, and working to prevent it."
Yeah, but that doesn't work when a) we never see the darkspawn do anything 
the world we visit is pre-Blight ravage and c) we stop the blight dead in its tracks without the actual Grey Wardens (the novice Alistair and the new recruit PC don't really count). The closest we get to real Wardens are Duncan and Riordan, and they're awful examples. The reveal makes Duncan look like a moron for essentially agreeing to a plan guaranteed to fail and doom Ferelden, and Riordan is totally coo-coo for cocopuffs.
What happens if a blight comes around? You'll be callin' for the Grey Wardens when that happens.
Nope , i will just make someone competent go through joining and send him on archdemon, worked last time perfectly fine.
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