1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Ambient_Riot]

I'd definitely exile them for the time being. 'But the Blight!' isn't really a reason to keep them around as no one is suggesting that they should be eliminated entirely. Fact is, at that point in the story, the Wardens have proven to be wide open to Corypheus' manipulations. Banishing them and keeping them far away from the fight is smarter than bringing them into the Inquisition and potentially giving Corypheus a means to destroy the organization from within.

[Scuttlebutt101]

Nope , i will just make someone competent go through joining and send him on archdemon, worked last time perfectly fine.     

Do people seriously believe this would work in practice? Really?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Do people seriously believe this would work in practice? Really?

I don't need to believe because it already did work better than ever.

 

quality over quantity in this situation works much better. 

[Scuttlebutt101]

I don't need to believe because it already did work better than ever.

 

quality over quantity in this situation works much better. 

HoF was a player character, s/he was immune. And incredibly lucky. If it weren't for Flemeth, s/he and Alistair would have died back in Ostagar. What if that "someone competent" gets killed on the way to Archdemon? Or the Archdemon dies and rises in full strength before that "someone" reaches him??

[Cute Nug]

What happens if a blight comes around? You'll be callin' for the Grey Wardens when that happens.

 

Definitely need something like the Grey Wardens to fight the next blight (if Souless doesn't end the world first) and fight darkspawn until then but I have no confidence in the Grey Wardens. The Orlesion (and Ferelden?) wardens were all full on sack full of hammers derp in DAI except for just one GW.

 

Can't trust proven stupid to save Thedas. In DAI they switched from necessary heroes with questionable methods to being a huge risk to the safety of Thedas because they are just so dumb.

 

Plus with the additional risk of darkspawn magister control the Derp Wardens are DAI proven too stupid to be trusted with the safety of Thedas.

[TheKomandorShepard]

HoF was a player character, s/he was immune. And incredibly lucky. If it weren't for Flemeth, s/he and Alistair would have died back in Ostagar. What if that "someone competent" gets killed on the way to Archdemon? Or the Archdemon dies and rises in full strength before that "someone reaches" him??

Immune to what? As far i know being PC doesn't make you immune to anything. Ostagar was long before culmination and hunting archdemon down ignoring lack of experience on their part , they could have been replaced at any time by another competent people before battle of denerim. Then you send another competent person that went through joining.And why Archdemon would die from anything else other than person send after him , unless it is accidental but presence of grey wardens wouldn't have changed it. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Immune to what? As far i know being PC doesn't make you immune to anything. Ostagar was long before culmination and hunting archdemon down ignoring lack of experience on their part , they could have been replaced at any time by another competent people before battle of denerim. Then you send another competent person that went through joining.And why Archdemon would die from anything else other than person send after him , unless it is accidental but presence of grey wardens wouldn't have changed it. 

Being a PC means you're basically immortal until and unless the plot says so. Seriously, the PCs in this series survive things that no small group has any business handling. Pride Demons, Pride Abominations, Red Templars? Those are things that most people, even most people trained to handle magic, are at best challenged by.

[Abyss108]

Being a PC means you're basically immortal until and unless the plot says so. Seriously, the PCs in this series survive things that no small group has any business handling. Pride Demons, Pride Abominations, Red Templars? Those are things that most people, even most people trained to handle magic, are at best challenged by.

 

Spoiler Alert: all characters are immortal until the plot says so!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Spoiler Alert: all characters are immortal until the plot says so!

Yeah, well, it's more generous with major characters. Especially PCs.

[Abyss108]

Yeah, well, it's more generous with major characters. Especially PCs.

 

But it goes the opposite way too. You can say major character get to survive longer, or you can say that characters that survive longer get to become major characters.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But it goes the opposite way too. You can say major character get to survive longer, or you can say that characters that survive longer get to become major characters.

The point is that if you try to give the Joining to one person, and then send them to do what the Hero of Ferelden did, you're gambling on them being a major character in a setting where most aren't. The vast majority of Fereldens could not have done what the Hero of Ferelden did. (Hence the name.) Hell, even their previous hero is relegated to a supporting role at best.

[Abyss108]

The point is that if you try to give the Joining to one person, and then send them to do what the Hero of Ferelden did, you're gambling on them being a major character in a setting where most aren't. The vast majority of Fereldens could not have done what the Hero of Ferelden did. (Hence the name.) Hell, even their previous hero is relegated to a supporting role at best.

 

Very true. But if this next Blight exists, its going to be a story Bioware writes. If Bioware wrote one story where a single character is capable of such a thing I don't think you can argue they were only capable because Bioware wrote it that way. Because that just shows Bioware can write that again for the next story. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Being a PC means you're basically immortal until and unless the plot says so. Seriously, the PCs in this series survive things that no small group has any business handling. Pride Demons, Pride Abominations, Red Templars? Those are things that most people, even most people trained to handle magic, are at best challenged by.

Hardly , it concerns every character and more characters than just pc were shown able to handle those enemies. PC can die but for obvious reasons game ends as PC is protagonist so their story ends with them. Of course actions of pc are to least say impressive but not exclusive to them.

[DDJ]

Yeah, but that doesn't work when a) we never see the darkspawn do anything the world we visit is pre-Blight ravage and c) we stop the blight dead in its tracks without the actual Grey Wardens (the novice Alistair and the new recruit PC don't really count). The closest we get to real Wardens are Duncan and Riordan, and they're awful examples. The reveal makes Duncan look like a moron for essentially agreeing to a plan guaranteed to fail and doom Ferelden, and Riordan is totally coo-coo for cocopuffs. 

 

Let's not forgot the demon army raising Clarel raising something worse than the blight.  Now here is a heretical thought:  what if the blight and darkspawn are not the Maker's punishment.  The Wardens are the punishment.  They are around a lot more.

 

As I said, just a heretical thought.  

[GoldenGail3]

I'd definitely exile them for the time being. 'But the Blight!' isn't really a reason to keep them around as no one is suggesting that they should be eliminated entirely. Fact is, at that point in the story, the Wardens have proven to be wide open to Corypheus' manipulations. Banishing them and keeping them far away from the fight is smarter than bringing them into the Inquisition and potentially giving Corypheus a means to destroy the organization from within.

Oh yeah? What happens if the Blight starts in Orlais when you have nobody to defend them from the Blight? You'd be screwed over then. Like super screwed over. I didn't banish the Wardens due to not wanting to be screwed over by the Blight... Which is no big deal to you or anything, right? And the Wardens? Well; they were probaly sure glad that i didn't bring them to the Arbor Wilds. And btw; if you banishing them does end up in a blight occuring in Orlais; it'd be your 100% be your fault you banished them.

[GoldenGail3]

Definitely need something like the Grey Wardens to fight the next blight (if Souless doesn't end the world first) and fight darkspawn until then but I have no confidence in the Grey Wardens. The Orlesion (and Ferelden?) wardens were all full on sack full of hammers derp in DAI except for just one GW.
 
Can't trust proven stupid to save Thedas. In DAI they switched from necessary heroes with questionable methods to being a huge risk to the safety of Thedas because they are just so dumb.
 
Plus with the additional risk of darkspawn magister control the Derp Wardens are DAI proven too stupid to be trusted with the safety of Thedas.

What happens If actually does happen in Orlais? What would do then SINCE ya know, you banished them.

[Abyss108]

I think the odds of Cory using them against you again are significantly higher than the chance of a Blight occurring in Orlais any time soon...

 

I kept them around, but the threat of a Blight certainly didn't have anything to do with it.

[Aren]

Being a PC means you're basically immortal until and unless the plot says so. Seriously, the PCs in this series survive things that no small group has any business handling. Pride Demons, Pride Abominations, Red Templars? Those are things that most people, even most people trained to handle magic, are at best challenged by.

Any organization or set of characters that aren't directed tied to your character and your inner circle of friends will always be made out to look clueless and incompetant. Its how it goes in Bioware games. And sadly most people are more than happy to go right along with this

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Let's not forgot the demon army raising Clarel raising something worse than the blight.  Now here is a heretical thought:  what if the blight and darkspawn are not the Maker's punishment.  The Wardens are the punishment.  They are around a lot more.

 

As I said, just a heretical thought.  

The darkspawn are around too. The Blights aren't when they suddenly appear, so much as when they begin doing so more than sporadically. Loghain and Cailan thought that the attackers at Ostagar were just a one-off raid, which makes sense considering that as we learn in Inquisition they totally do that. And in the vast majority of cases, the Wardens aren't as bad as the Blight; it's only twice that I know of that they've become a threat to the entire world.

 

Yeah, but that doesn't work when a) we never see the darkspawn do anything   the world we visit is pre-Blight ravage and c) we stop the blight dead in its tracks without the actual Grey Wardens (the novice Alistair and the new recruit PC don't really count). The closest we get to real Wardens are Duncan and Riordan, and they're awful examples. The reveal makes Duncan look like a moron for essentially agreeing to a plan guaranteed to fail and doom Ferelden, and Riordan is totally coo-coo for cocopuffs. 

We see that the darkspawn have destroyed Lothering, we see them swiftly move back into Aeducan thaig after the dwarves completely purge it in the DN Origin, we see the entirety of Awakening, and we see them actively darkspawning about without either Urthemiel or the Architect to guide them in Inquisition. It's simply not true that we never see them doing anything.

 

As for the "real Wardens" point...

 

Nope , i will just make someone competent go through joining and send him on archdemon, worked last time perfectly fine.      

Oh, one thing that I should point out that hasn't come up yet in this thread: say what you will about Riordan, but without him shearing a big chunk of the Archdemon's wing out, the Archdemon would have stayed in the air the whole time. Even in playthroughs where Alistair or Loghain was guarding the gate instead of heading to Fort Drakon (also Riordan's plan, by the way,) one Warden didn't take out Urthemiel.

 

I wonder how you'll anti-think your way out of this one?

 

 

 

Any organization or set of characters that aren't directed tied to your character and your inner circle of friends will always be made out to look clueless and incompetant. Its how it goes in Bioware games. And sadly most people are more than happy to go right along with this

 

It's not solely a question of the other characters being incompetent (although you have a case with any political decision that ever happens in Thedas ever and a lot of the battle plans we see.) If you read the Codex on Pride Demons, you will realize they are freaking scary. And if you add a Senior Enchanter's power and skill to it... well, our PC and three companions (at most) had no business winning the fight with Uldred.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Oh, one thing that I should point out that hasn't come up yet in this thread: say what you will about Riordan, but without him shearing a big chunk of the Archdemon's wing out, the Archdemon would have stayed in the air the whole time. Even in playthroughs where Alistair or Loghain was guarding the gate instead of heading to Fort Drakon (also Riordan's plan, by the way,) one Warden didn't take out Urthemiel.

 

I wonder how you'll anti-think your way out of this one?

 

Riordan is one of few wardens i have positive opinion, as he is one of few that weren't incompetent. Still however number of people that went through joining that participated in ending fifth blight was no bigger than 3, truth is that thing Riordan did didn't require joining just skills to pull it off, so Riordan could have been as well non-warden. So in the end only 1 warden was vital and it was one that killed archdemon , of course i nowhere said you should make only 1 person go through joining. 

 

I don't think "anti-think" , i prefer logic.

[Scuttlebutt101]

of course i nowhere said you should make only 1 person go through joining. 

So... why not just keep the Wardens and have a whole army of people who went through the Joining? 

[Aren]

Oh, one thing that I should point out that hasn't come up yet in this thread: say what you will about Riordan, but without him shearing a big chunk of the Archdemon's wing out, the Archdemon would have stayed in the air the whole time. Even in playthroughs where Alistair or Loghain was guarding the gate instead of heading to Fort Drakon (also Riordan's plan, by the way,) one Warden didn't take out Urthemiel.

I wonder how you'll anti-think your way out of this one?



It's not solely a question of the other characters being incompetent (although you have a case with any political decision that ever happens in Thedas ever and a lot of the battle plans we see.) If you read the Codex on Pride Demons, you will realize they are freaking scary. And if you add a Senior Enchanter's power and skill to it... well, our PC and three companions (at most) had no business winning the fight with Uldred.

On the first point i will still say that Riordan was a poor fool,jumping on a flying Dragon without any type of plan is folly.
There are several ways to force a flying opponent to come on ground,try to injure him with arrows or ballistas of long range or elemental magic from mages is by far a smart idea than go on a dumb attack.
The archdemon after Riordan attack was still capable to fly since the dragon used his wings at the final battle against the Pc.
The archdemon,(because that dragon was formerly Urthemiel) was in his complete vital strength as it is one of the property of the severed blighted creature to be able to quickly regenerate injuries (Ogre codex of DAA) and his wing was fine during the battle.

On Uldred i agree with that,in no realistic scenario a band of amateurs would have been capable to defeat a senior enchanter infused with a pride demon,not to mention that Ulred was helped also by several abominations.
this is way i said that things in DA(especially in DAO) are unrealistic when it comes to our circle of friends and our PC

[TheKomandorShepard]

So... why not just keep the Wardens and have a whole army of people who went through the Joining? 

First, because joining is often lethal so by that you are shrinking your army to do something that 1 person or few could do. Second , wardens not only were shown to be incompetent (except rare individual exceptions) but also threat to society and world safety. That said , im fine with having organisation that deals with darkspawn but not grey wardens only new competent and supervised organisation that won't blow world up. 

[DDJ]

The darkspawn are around too. The Blights aren't when they suddenly appear, so much as when they begin doing so more than sporadically. Loghain and Cailan thought that the attackers at Ostagar were just a one-off raid, which makes sense considering that as we learn in Inquisition they totally do that. And in the vast majority of cases, the Wardens aren't as bad as the Blight; it's only twice that I know of that they've become a threat to the entire world.

 

 

We see that the darkspawn have destroyed Lothering, we see them swiftly move back into Aeducan thaig after the dwarves completely purge it in the DN Origin, we see the entirety of Awakening, and we see them actively darkspawning about without either Urthemiel or the Architect to guide them in Inquisition. It's simply not true that we never see them doing anything.

 

As for the "real Wardens" point...

 

 

Oh, one thing that I should point out that hasn't come up yet in this thread: say what you will about Riordan, but without him shearing a big chunk of the Archdemon's wing out, the Archdemon would have stayed in the air the whole time. Even in playthroughs where Alistair or Loghain was guarding the gate instead of heading to Fort Drakon (also Riordan's plan, by the way,) one Warden didn't take out Urthemiel.

 

I wonder how you'll anti-think your way out of this one?

 

 

 

It's not solely a question of the other characters being incompetent (although you have a case with any political decision that ever happens in Thedas ever and a lot of the battle plans we see.) If you read the Codex on Pride Demons, you will realize they are freaking scary. And if you add a Senior Enchanter's power and skill to it... well, our PC and three companions (at most) had no business winning the fight with Uldred.

 

The darkspawn are around too. The Blights aren't when they suddenly appear, so much as when they begin doing so more than sporadically. Loghain and Cailan thought that the attackers at Ostagar were just a one-off raid, which makes sense considering that as we learn in Inquisition they totally do that. And in the vast majority of cases, the Wardens aren't as bad as the Blight; it's only twice that I know of that they've become a threat to the entire world.

 

 

We see that the darkspawn have destroyed Lothering, we see them swiftly move back into Aeducan thaig after the dwarves completely purge it in the DN Origin, we see the entirety of Awakening, and we see them actively darkspawning about without either Urthemiel or the Architect to guide them in Inquisition. It's simply not true that we never see them doing anything.

 

As for the "real Wardens" point...

 

 

Oh, one thing that I should point out that hasn't come up yet in this thread: say what you will about Riordan, but without him shearing a big chunk of the Archdemon's wing out, the Archdemon would have stayed in the air the whole time. Even in playthroughs where Alistair or Loghain was guarding the gate instead of heading to Fort Drakon (also Riordan's plan, by the way,) one Warden didn't take out Urthemiel.

 

I wonder how you'll anti-think your way out of this one?

 

 

 

It's not solely a question of the other characters being incompetent (although you have a case with any political decision that ever happens in Thedas ever and a lot of the battle plans we see.) If you read the Codex on Pride Demons, you will realize they are freaking scary. And if you add a Senior Enchanter's power and skill to it... well, our PC and three companions (at most) had no business winning the fight with Uldred.

 

I am not certain that the darkspawn on their own are worse than the wardens.  We have no cases of the spawn raising a demon army, for the greater good of course.  It is unclear to me that a demon army wiping out all life is better than a darkspawn army wiping out all life.  If one considers that Stroud could have headed this off but chose not to due to his "vow of secrecy" most of the lives lost in DAI both onscreen and offscreen were due to the Warden's paranoia.l

 

Just a thought.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I am not certain that the darkspawn on their own are worse than the wardens.  We have no cases of the spawn raising a demon army, for the greater good of course.  It is unclear to me that a demon army wiping out all life is better than a darkspawn army wiping out all life.  If one considers that Stroud could have headed this off but chose not to due to his "vow of secrecy" most of the lives lost in DAI both onscreen and offscreen were due to the Warden's paranoia.l

 

Just a thought.

The difficulty is that the darkspawn on their own aren't the whole problem or even the worst of it. In addition to darkspawn popping up every so often (which is best handled by Wardens even if it's not their primary reason for existing) we have five cases of the darkspawn trying to end the world with an Archdemon, and the Architect kicked off more two potential apocalypses. For reference, the Wardens were tricked into almost kicking off an apocalypse by the Architect and by Corypheus (which is arguably another darkspawn plot to add to their tally) and in both cases there was at least one Warden helping the outsiders who stopped the plot. So, that's a total of seven or eight darkspawn based apocalypses and two Warden based ones, and in no case did all the Wardens agree to wipe out all life. I'm not sure you have a case that the cure is worse than the disease here.