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[Cute Nug]

What happens If actually does happen in Orlais? What would do then SINCE ya know, you banished them.

 

I wouldn't want to have to fight a 6th darkspawn blight and the derpy Grey Spawn/Wardens at the same time so if given the choice I would create a new tainter order that could fight the blight.

 

The Inquisition maybe learned the Grey Spawn secrets in taking Adamant and could pass on the secrets of the Grey Spawn to those interested in creating a replacement tainter order. 

 

Why banish the Grey Spawn? Would have been better to have the option of locking them up until we confirm honest sharing of their secrets and the risk of them being darkspawn magister toadies is addressed.

They murdered a Divine Mother for a darkspawn, almost wiped out Thedas, and can still be controlled by unaccounted for darkspawn magisters. Seems like we already found a use for the empty circle towers/prisons.

[DDJ]

The difficulty is that the darkspawn on their own aren't the whole problem or even the worst of it. In addition to darkspawn popping up every so often (which is best handled by Wardens even if it's not their primary reason for existing) we have five cases of the darkspawn trying to end the world with an Archdemon, and the Architect kicked off more two potential apocalypses. For reference, the Wardens were tricked into almost kicking off an apocalypse by the Architect and by Corypheus (which is arguably another darkspawn plot to add to their tally) and in both cases there was at least one Warden helping the outsiders who stopped the plot. So, that's a total of seven or eight darkspawn based apocalypses and two Warden based ones, and in no case did all the Wardens agree to wipe out all life. I'm not sure you have a case that the cure is worse than the disease here.

 

Possibly.  Still since it has been demonstrated that the Wardens can be controlled by darkspawn, and since we really know very little about the first four blights, we do not really know.  It comes down to a mathematical model actually.  The blights = darkspawn + archdemon = evil.  Wardens take the blight into them and become ghouls.  So you have evil (greater) fighting evil (lesser).  Evil always wins in this matter, and while the Wardens are admittedly the lesser of two evils, we do not know all of the heinous crimes they have committed over the centuries "for the greater good" of course.  What I am saying here is that we do not know, but their track record to date is hardly stellar.  And by the by you need not agree to extinguish all life if you summon the means to do it through your own foolishness.

 

Perhaps they should be confined to something like a circle.

 

Just a thought.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

The Inquisition maybe learned the Grey Spawn secrets in taking Adamant and could pass on the secrets of the Grey Spawn to those interested in creating a replacement tainter order.

There is no evidence that they did so, so this argument that they can be replaced doesn't work.

 

They murdered a Divine Mother for a darkspawn, almost wiped out Thedas, and can still be controlled by unaccounted for darkspawn magisters. Seems like we already found a use for the empty circle towers/prisons.

Yeah, see in my playthroughs there are no such empty towers, because I'm more afraid of the mages you apparently see no reason to fear despite them not even having to decide to go on a killing spree. I can see an argument for confining Wardens I guess, but how do you see an argument for confining Wardens and not mages?

 

 

And by the by you need not agree to extinguish all life if you summon the means to do it through your own foolishness.

 

One thing I will point out in the Wardens defense is that the bindings would have stopped the demons from threatening to extinguish all life from all we can see, unless that's how they were used. Yeah, using demons is really stupid and desperate, but I will point out that given what they thought they were being threatened with, this plan makes sense assuming that the bindings are secure.

 

The Wardens think that everyone who knows the secret of why they are needed is about to die. They don't know why it's happening and can't be sure that people who take the Joining later (after they all die) are safe. They can't be sure that any warrior can be empowered to kill the next Archdemon and avert the apocalypse that's due in a few centuries. If the situation they thought they were reacting to was real (and the binding ritual had no strings attached) this would be an acceptable response to it.

[Aren]

Their plan with the demons was stupid plain and simple.
All the others wardens of the others nations were still fine so the order was far from be in danger of extinction.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Their plan with the demons was stupid plain and simple.
All the others wardens of the others nations were still fine so the order was far from be in danger of extinction.

The Orlesian and Ferelden Wardens were effected. And I'm not sure how they'd confirm the others weren't. Communication magic seems to be basically nonexistent in this setting, and communication technology is at medieval levels. A crow could be intercepted (and we know that the Venatori have the brains to intercept letters, because that's why we can't avoid the Winter Palace Peace Talks plot that way; it might be that Clarel tried that expedient despite the risk and Corypheus's agents foiled it) and we don't even know that the Wardens have them anyway. A letter sent by ship would of course be even less secure.

[Abyss108]

If they thought all the Wardens who knew the secret to killing the Archdemon were about to die, the sane response would be to tell other people the secret before running off on their new suicide plan, so when they likely fail, at least someone can try the ritual again next time there is a Blight...

[DDJ]

If they thought all the Wardens who knew the secret to killing the Archdemon were about to die, the sane response would be to tell other people the secret before running off on their new suicide plan, so when they likely fail, at least someone can try the ritual again next time there is a Blight...

 

This makes perfect sense to me.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If they thought all the Wardens who knew the secret to killing the Archdemon were about to die, the sane response would be to tell other people the secret before running off on their new suicide plan, so when they likely fail, at least someone can try the ritual again next time there is a Blight...

The problem being that they don't know that the Joining still works the same way it used to, and while the rules suddenly changing makes no sense neither does the sudden Mass-Calling. To which one might add all the reasons they didn't before. But I suppose that figuring out who can be safely told, and letting them keep the secret without telling them that others know (in case they react badly) just because why not would be a good idea. The main risk is that they might guess that the Wardens are going to do something desperate and interfere, which would a problem if the previous solution no longer works.

[Abyss108]

The problem being that they don't know that the Joining still works the same way it used to, plus all the reasons they didn't before. But I suppose that figuring out who can be safely told, and letting them keep the secret without telling them that others know (in case they react badly) just because why not would be a good idea. The main risk is that they might guess that the Wardens are going to do something desperate and interfere, which would a problem since there's no guarantee the previous ritual is still workable.

 

They have no idea what's going on, and they don't have the time to investigate themselves, so instead of letting anybody else know what they do know they decide to take that knowledge to their grave instead. The suicide run fails (and they know it probably will), the world will stand absolutely no chance against the next Blight because now, absolutely no one even knows that only a person with the corruption can kill the Archdemon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

They have no idea what's going on, and they don't have the time to investigate themselves, so instead of letting anybody else know what they do know they decide to take that knowledge to their grave instead. The suicide run fails (and they know it probably will), the world will stand absolutely no chance against the next Blight because now, absolutely no one even knows that only a person with the corruption can kill the Archdemon.

A: I've already conceded that they should have told someone. Though come to think of it they almost certainly would have had to tell Erimond everything.

B: Once they've gotten the demons bound, the plan is probably going to work barring weirdness like what Corypheus did to screw them over. The plan on the face of it merits your skepticism, but by the time we stumble onto it the only problems with the plan were related to the setup that got it started at all. While it was stupid not to tell anyone, (or to not tell anyone except Erimond, as the case may have been) the rest of their plan was decent.

[Abyss108]

A: I've already conceded that they should have told someone.

B: Once they've gotten the demons bound, the plan is probably going to work barring weirdness like what Corypheus did to screw them over. The plan on the face of it merits your skepticism, but by the time we stumble onto it the only problems with the plan were related to the setup that got it started at all. While it was stupid not to tell anyone, (or to not tell anyone except Erimond, as the case may have been) the rest of their plan was decent.

 

A: Never said you didn't, I was just expanding my point a bit.

 

B: I disagree. They have a hard enough time fighting a single Archdemon. Marching into the deep roads to fight all the remaining Darkspawn at once, locate and travel to every single God, deeper in the earth than anyone has ever traveled where they have no idea what to expect, then defeat every single one of them in battle is a terrible idea. If it was a good plan, they would have tried it much sooner and not only resorted to it as a last effort because they thought they were about to die.

[diaspora2k5]

Did the inquisition actually send a message to Weisshaupt telling them about Corypheus?

[Cute Nug]

There is no evidence that they did so, so this argument that they can be replaced doesn't work.

 

Yeah, see in my playthroughs there are no such empty towers, because I'm more afraid of the mages you apparently see no reason to fear despite them not even having to decide to go on a killing spree. I can see an argument for confining Wardens I guess, but how do you see an argument for confining Wardens and not mages?

 

 

 

One thing I will point out in the Wardens defense is that the bindings would have stopped the demons from threatening to extinguish all life from all we can see, unless that's how they were used. Yeah, using demons is really stupid and desperate, but I will point out that given what they thought they were being threatened with, this plan makes sense assuming that the bindings are secure.

 

The Wardens think that everyone who knows the secret of why they are needed is about to die. They don't know why it's happening and can't be sure that people who take the Joining later (after they all die) are safe. They can't be sure that any warrior can be empowered to kill the next Archdemon and avert the apocalypse that's due in a few centuries. If the situation they thought they were reacting to was real (and the binding ritual had no strings attached) this would be an acceptable response to it.

 

The possibility of replacing the Grey Wardens is an okay head cannon theory (not argument) for some play-throughs RP later world states. I don't remember anything in DAI that would indicate any likelihood of it happening. It just makes sense for some as an idea/reaction after playing DAI.

 

IMHO it would be relevant DAI game world info to address in-game if the Grey Spawn joining ritual specifics were found after defeating the Grey Spawn at Adamant fortress. If you banish the Grey Spawn even if it is temporary it seems relevant to have at least considered a Plan B if the next blight happens. It a biggish game choice to make without info you would reasonably expect. I'm still happy they allowed us at least a limited choice of what  do with them.

 

Honestly, I've completed DAI twice and first I allied with the post demon army Derp Wardens and the second time I banished them. I really liked that in-game we could call them on being stupid and we could make an Inquisition limited choice in dealing with them. However, Grey Wardens being stupid aren't like Orsino being stupid at the end of DA2 since Thedas thankfully doesn't need an Orsino to save them from the next blight. I wish DAI dealt more indepthly throughout the game with the Grey Warden issue since they are crucially important to Thedas and the DA storyline. Only having a knee jerk limited exile option oddly ignores a lot of blighty issues that seem relevant. It will be interesting to see what Bioware does with the wardens in the future.

 

I was more joking about locking the Grey Spawn in a circle tower since there was now unused space. If the option to lock them up for a period of time had even been available in-game it would have of course been way more entertaining to lock them in their pal Cory's old prison.

 

I haven't decided yet on my acceptable world state if DA4 is made and I continue the DA story. I'll probably go with a DAI where I got pimplar support first so I guess my post DAI circles and mage academy will have a lot of rebel mages turned evil venatori cultists since it seemed like the rebs were the only mages left in Thedas when I needed a few to close that sky hole thing. It didn't go well in DAI when evil Venatori palled around with the Grey Spawn so probably shouldn't lock them both up in the same tower.

 

As for also locking up the mages if you lock up the Grey Spawn that probably would work as badly as it did for the mages so far. 

 

My opinion, is the Grey Spawn as presented in DAI didn't work out solely in the best interest of the DA world. I think locking them up and using the Inquisition Comfy Chair until they give up their joining secrets is funny to talk about but unlikely to happen until years from now when they release the DAI enhanced edition.

 

There are a lot of story loose ends like what will happened with the Grey Spawn in DAI that could make a future game interesting. I would only be disappointed if it wasn't addressed in an interesting way in a future game but Bioware has a lot story loose ends to address if there is a DA4 or DA5. Orlais or another country creating their own tainter order might be interesting if done well and relevant in a future game.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

A: Never said you didn't, I was just expanding my point a bit.

 

B: I disagree. They have a hard enough time fighting a single Archdemon. Marching into the deep roads to fight all the remaining Darkspawn at once, locate and travel to every single God, deeper in the earth than anyone has ever traveled where they have no idea what to expect, then defeat every single one of them in battle is a terrible idea. If it was a good plan, they would have tried it much sooner and not only resorted to it as a last effort because they thought they were about to die.

I didn't say it was a good plan. It's not, which as you correctly note is probably why they've never done it before. As for why they're doing it now, desperate times and all that.

 

But you're overstating the extent to which it isn't a good plan. For one thing, Clarel might already know where the Old Gods are, since it used to be standard practice for Warden Commanders to know that. And how they could know that, but not have any idea what they are going to meet along the way, I can't guess. For another, they don't need to get all the darkspawn, they just need to get both the remaining Old Gods. Which means they aren't fighting all the darkspawn at once, since there's no currently extant force that can rally them. (That being the point; to destroy the Old Gods before they become Archdemons.) And once they actually get the demons bound, the demons are going to make this a lot easier. There's a reason people are afraid of them.

[ModernAcademic]

The whole army of demons was a plot device used to paint Wardens as villains. It's an old resource widely used in fiction. The hero of today becomes the despicable villain of tomorrow and vice versa.

 

Anyone who didn't play Origins will believe Wardens are stupid and vile, period. And no one will convince them otherwise.

[diaspora2k5]

The whole army of demons was a plot device used to paint Wardens as villains. It's an old resource widely used in fiction. The hero of today becomes the despicable villain of tomorrow and vice versa.

 

Anyone who didn't play Origins will believe Wardens are stupid and vile, period. And no one will convince them otherwise.

The parts of Last Flight focused on the 4th Blight were incredible. The Wardens destroyed the Griffons accidentally, but the practice ended up saving Thedas.

[DDJ]

The whole army of demons was a plot device used to paint Wardens as villains. It's an old resource widely used in fiction. The hero of today becomes the despicable villain of tomorrow and vice versa.

 

Anyone who didn't play Origins will believe Wardens are stupid and vile, period. And no one will convince them otherwise.

 

With respect, I have played Origins many times.  I have always failed to see the nobility and DA 2 confirms my suspicion.  Not everyone wants to be a warden.  Not everyone is honored, and forcing them builds no loyalty.  I am frankly surprised that there is not a high revenge murder rate among the Wardens not to mention suicide.  So, while I hoped for better in DAI, I was not disappointed at their character.

[DDJ]

The Joining makes people infertile, gives them 30 years of life at most and fills your head with constant nightmares and a song that eventually overpowers your mind.

 

It can also be fatal, with a remarkably low level of survival.

 

I dont think people would start to queue to join the Wardens if they knew the secrets of the Order. Like Loghain said, some secrets are too dangerous to reveal. 

 

Either the Wardens or someone else come up with a better solution to vanquish the Blight and cure the taint or thee's simply no other solution than to let the Order remain mysterious.

 

Very well thought out and interesting.  However, none of this will build a shred of loyalty to an Order for someone who did not want in in the first place.  Not that the Wardens care of course, but it seems that they open themselves up to a lot of problems by this secrecy.  I might buy that a single renegade warden might not believed when he reveals Warden secrets, but over the centuries there will have been far more than one.  The fact that they hide the deaths in the joining does not work well aka Howe.  How much trouble is it to write a letter telling someone that their relative was killed in action.  After all, it is hardly beneath them to lie, and in this case the lie would serve a higher purpose for the good of the Order and the Wardens.  Instead they opt for obstinate and superior "Order business."  The Wardens did not change between DAO and DAI - it is only more realized.  After all, the same people wrote it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Wardens did not change between DAO and DAI - it is only more realized.  After all, the same people wrote it.

Well, this much I think we can agree on.

[DDJ]

Everyone has made good points.  What I think we really need, forgetting mages and Wardens, is an exalted march on Bioware to hurry them along on DA4.

[Abyss108]

The whole army of demons was a plot device used to paint Wardens as villains. It's an old resource widely used in fiction. The hero of today becomes the despicable villain of tomorrow and vice versa.

 

Anyone who didn't play Origins will believe Wardens are stupid and vile, period. And no one will convince them otherwise.

 

I've followed Dragon Age since it was first announced and have always believed Wardens are stupid and vile. This has nothing to do with whether someone played Origins.

[DDJ]

As I was thinking about an Exalted March on Bioware it occurred to me that frequently the Wardens justify their actions as being for "the Greater Good."  That is a most interesting phrase that I'll come back to.  Ending a blight is definitely the greater good.  I will not argue that.  But that same cloak is used everywhere.  Murder Jory, greater good.  Murder the Divine, greater good.  Bioware likes to call these "mistakes" but they are far more.  The Wardens embody the might makes right and the end justifies the means.  So let us consider what Karl Popper who studied the greater good phrase wrote on it.  The greater good can be considered the greater happiness.  So he postulates if the Inquisitor, Hawke, HoF suddenly locates a weapon that would instantly and painlessly destroy all life on Thedas, he / she should use it.  After all, the individual is preventing two future blights and ending forever the darkspawn threat.  Think of how much happier people would be, and with the elimination of the abomination of slavery, the agony of disease and the misery of poverty.  As a Warden then, following that philosophy of "for the greater good" the HoF locating such a weapon should use it.  Blights over.  This is the dark side of the greater good, and who decides it anyway?  If the HoF had broken free at the Joining and killed Duncan and Alastair for the murder of his / her friend Jory, isn't the elimination of dangerous murderers for the greater good.  So, who decides?  Everyone decides by their own morality, experience etc.  So now we have anarchy.  Barring plot armor for the moment, if the HoF had refused the blood in DAO they would have been killed without a secod thought for the greater good.  If they had instead killed Duncan and Alastair it would also be for the greater good as the HoF.  After all, no archdemon has been sighted AND the HoF is defending their life.  

 

So, to sum it up, this greater good is an amoral phrase.  That the Wardens use it tells volumes about it.  Don' blame me for the weapon reference.  You need to speak with Popper.

 

Just random thoughts.

[robertthebard]

Oh yeah? What happens if the Blight starts in Orlais when you have nobody to defend them from the Blight? You'd be screwed over then. Like super screwed over. I didn't banish the Wardens due to not wanting to be screwed over by the Blight... Which is no big deal to you or anything, right? And the Wardens? Well; they were probaly sure glad that i didn't bring them to the Arbor Wilds. And btw; if you banishing them does end up in a blight occuring in Orlais; it'd be your 100% be your fault you banished them.

Did a Blight start between the time you played Adamant and the time you finished off Cory?  It didn't in my game, I'm just curious if you had a different outcome, because if you didn't, then this argument doesn't really hold a lot of water.  It's been a day or two, but I don't recall telling them that they could never come back.  I do recall that Cory was an imminent threat.  Once that's removed, it's an open book for rather they stay exiled.

 

PS:  Before we get to the "but there are darkspawn raids" argument, there have been darkspawn raids since there have been darkspawn, and that isn't always a precursor to a Blight, it's a raid to find suitable females for broodmothers, for example.

[GoldenGail3]

Did a Blight start between the time you played Adamant and the time you finished off Cory?  It didn't in my game, I'm just curious if you had a different outcome, because if you didn't, then this argument doesn't really hold a lot of water.  It's been a day or two, but I don't recall telling them that they could never come back.  I do recall that Cory was an imminent threat.  Once that's removed, it's an open book for rather they stay exiled.
 
PS:  Before we get to the "but there are darkspawn raids" argument, there have been darkspawn raids since there have been darkspawn, and that isn't always a precursor to a Blight, it's a raid to find suitable females for broodmothers, for example.

I was saying it could in the future if you so choose to exile them. And possibly; they could never come back (if you so choose to exile them, like you said it's a open book).

And you'd pefer it if people turned into ghouls?

[ModernAcademic]

Very well thought out and interesting.  However, none of this will build a shred of loyalty to an Order for someone who did not want in in the first place.  Not that the Wardens care of course, but it seems that they open themselves up to a lot of problems by this secrecy.  

 

I fully agree. If it were not for the secrecy, bad political decisions wouldn't have endangered Ferelden they way they did. For instance, Loghain would never have left the Wardens to die in Ostagar and the civil war would've been avoided.