1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Bardox9]

Wouldn't be the first time the Wardens were exiled from a country. Orlais will not be safe for the wardens once it is known that they were the ones who killed the Divine and flooded the world with tears in the veil pouring demons into the world. No matter their reason for doing it, there has to be consequences for their actions at the Temple. Were they being controlled through blood magic or were they willing participants? Who really know how much influence Corypheus has over the Wardens? They are too dangerous at present to be allowed to remain.

 

Once Corypheus is dealt with, the Wardens can look to redeeming themselves.

[In Exile]

It's the only evidence you need.  The first blight didn't end with the death of the AD until it was killed by a Warden.  The following four blights were ended the same way, barring the possibility of the DR, with the AD and the Warden that took the killing blow dead.  Loghain wasn't as much trying to prove they didn't need Wardens as much as he was trying to resist Orlesian Wardens coming into Ferelden to fight the Blight.  He makes this pretty clear when he asks how Orlais would take over this time at the Landsmeet.

 

Those records didn't survive. It's not clear how much Thedas has re: the First Blight, but the apparent fact of Dumat's resurrection is apparently only known to the GWs. Loghain saw the Wardens as an arm of Orlais, and didn't see them as anything more than that bit. 

[DDJ]

It's the only evidence you need.  The first blight didn't end with the death of the AD until it was killed by a Warden.  The following four blights were ended the same way, barring the possibility of the DR, with the AD and the Warden that took the killing blow dead.  Loghain wasn't as much trying to prove they didn't need Wardens as much as he was trying to resist Orlesian Wardens coming into Ferelden to fight the Blight.  He makes this pretty clear when he asks how Orlais would take over this time at the Landsmeet.

 

I would respectfully disagree with the that's "the only evidence you need" bit.  These Blights are separated by hundreds of years, not by weeks.  What we have are five examples, and if the Warden survived it makes it worse.  Consider an example in our own world from only one hundred years ago - Custer's last stand.  We know in general what happened, but archeologists are still studying the mysteries of what happened while the end result is that Custer died.  Now drop back say one thousand years or so.  We know the Vikings conquered the island of Orkney, but we do not know the name of the individual who did it.  Go back further and you have the Trojan War.  Did they really bring a giant horse into a walled city or is that myth?  The point is you have the following as evidence.  1.  We say it takes a Warden to kill an archdemon.  How so you ask.  We cannot and will not tell you.  It is a secret of the Order.  Why is it a secret of the Order you ask.  Don't you want the world to be able to protect itself?  It is a secret of the Order.  We will not tell you.  So you have a secret organization claiming something even with the 5th blight you could say happenstance that the Warden killed it.  Perhaps Sten killed it, or Oghren or whoever.  I did not see the kill.  I would require a lot more evidence than "because we say so."  That, if you do not know the whole story which we do not even as players though we do know more of it is pretty flimsy.  Just in the time of eleven years the Wardens have shown themselves murderous (Jory), barely competent (Ostagar) and able to be manipulated by intelligent Darkspawn.  But the supporters say only we can stop a blight that is either centuries away or may never come with because we say so as rationale.  I do not believe so.  Frankly, as I write this I am not sure that I believe it as a player.  Still, I always respect everyone's opinions on this matter.

[DDJ]

Those records didn't survive. It's not clear how much Thedas has re: the First Blight, but the apparent fact of Dumat's resurrection is apparently only known to the GWs. Loghain saw the Wardens as an arm of Orlais, and didn't see them as anything more than that bit. 

 

And of course we (the Wardens) won't tell anyone.  It is a secret of the Order and would seriously undermine our power and influence.  Now that I see all these comments, I believe I am going back to exile for the Wardens.  As for Ser Ruth, back to the Wardens she goes.  Let them judge her.

 

Great thoughts from all.

[DDJ]

It just dawned on me what Fiona's cure and the clues within the game have told us.  There is a cure for the blight in Wardens and the Wardens, the senior ones anyway, know what it is.  Note Fiona is cured.  They "study" her under the guise of finding out why / how then when they fail back to the Circle since she does not know.  I suspect that if she did know she would have been killed.  Also, if the HoF survived DAO they are off hunting the cure.  Also, there is turmoil at Warden central.  So here is the heretical theory.  There is a cure that the Wardens found over the centuries but they will not reveal / use it.  To do so threatens their power.  After all, in their zealot minds you must sacrifice yourself and this leads to respect from the nations of the world.  They will kill to preserve their secrets - heck, they kill anyway and be damned to the consequences because there seldom are any.  However in DAI we know the HoF is back.  What if she / he found the cure and used it as at least Leliana implied he / she would.  She brings this miracle whatever back and reveals that the Wardens knew it all along.  Of course, it also cures blight diseases so the thousands that died of them need not have.  The senior Wardens are in a panic, but the truth becomes known to the rank and file.  It is too late to go after the HoF to kill them, though I would not put it past them, but Warden power is threatened worse than any blight could.  No more leaving widows, orphans and ghouls in their wake for the greater good.  No more murdering Divines and hundreds of others for the greater good.  Now they would be forced into a recruits only scenario or forced to operate under direct royal or chantry supervision.  Since they can be controlled by the blight they claim to fight and willingly take it in, no one could really trust them unsupervised and on the lose now once the tale spread, and it would spread.  There are simply too many who know it, and both Varric and Cassandra are writing it down.  

 

Just another heretical theory from heretical theory central.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That would involve the highest ranking Wardens voluntarily dying to perpetuate this, or else going on Fake Callings and not getting caught at the deception. I'm not going to say that's impossible, but it would be a bit contrived.

[DDJ]

That would involve the highest ranking Wardens voluntarily dying to perpetuate this, or else going on Fake Callings and not getting caught at the deception. I'm not going to say that's impossible, but it would be a bit contrived.

 

Or it could simply be that the highest ranking Wardens fake being tainted in the first place.  They could be something far different than we imagine.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Or it could simply be that the highest ranking Wardens fake being tainted in the first place.  They could be something far different than we imagine.

I doubt it. It would stand to reason they're promoted from the ranks. Certainly Warden-Commander Duncan was.

[DDJ]

I doubt it. It would stand to reason they're promoted from the ranks. Certainly Warden-Commander Duncan was.

 

Possibly, but I think that something more than "let us emerge from the shadows" is going on.  Hopefully there will be some answers in DA4 which will likely be another well deserved game of the year.

[Mistic]

Or it could simply be that the highest ranking Wardens fake being tainted in the first place.  They could be something far different than we imagine.

 

I'd say that seems unlikely, but then I remember the Seekers of Truth. Templar abilities without lyrium and its drawbacks? More likely than it seemed at first. And given Avernus' research, it's something that it's been studied in-universe by at least one guy.

 

I'm pretty sure that once the DA goes to the Anderfels (it will happen, sooner or later; the plot about the First Warden planning to take over the kingdom has been in the background since DA:O), we'll have more answers. I'm feeling optimistic since DA:I solved the mysteries about the Dales-Orlais war, the truth behind the Elvhen gods, the fall of Arlathan, who Flemeth is, etc.

[Blood Mage Reaver]

I didn't exile the Wardens simply because I wanted more troops and their war table missions give away a ton of good stuff.

 

Honestly though, considering that Solas wanted to blow up the world in the first place, the mages jumped on Tevinter's d*** at the first bad spot and the templars are crazy addicts who kill everyone who doesn't hate mages I'd say what the Warden's did is perfectly in tone with the morality of the setting.

[In Exile]

Or it could simply be that the highest ranking Wardens fake being tainted in the first place.  They could be something far different than we imagine.

Everything we see about their hierarchy suggests otherwise. We'd need them to be 

 

No, the better twist is that they were created by a Magister, like Corypheus and the Architect. Another master of the blight, but one who regretted everything. 

[Cute Nug]

Wouldn't be the first time the Wardens were exiled from a country. Orlais will not be safe for the wardens once it is known that they were the ones who killed the Divine and flooded the world with tears in the veil pouring demons into the world. No matter their reason for doing it, there has to be consequences for their actions at the Temple. Were they being controlled through blood magic or were they willing participants? Who really know how much influence Corypheus has over the Wardens? They are too dangerous at present to be allowed to remain.

 

Once Corypheus is dealt with, the Wardens can look to redeeming themselves.

 

Corybits is hopefully dealt with in DAI but if one darkspawn magister could almost destroy Thedas with Grey Warden help the risk the other 6 unaccounted darkspawn magisters are to Thedas and the Grey wardens should be considered maybe almost as much as the known expected threat for two more AD blights.

 

There might only be 2 AD left which the Grey Wardens are still needed for but equally or perhaps even more dangerous to Thedas are the 6 unaccounted for darkspawn magisters.

 

Either choice with the Grey Spawn has risks to the safety of Thedas. It makes the choice a great dilemma especially as offered as just a very quick post battle knee-jerk decision with very limited ability to realistically RP outside of head cannon how this important choice may impact Thedas.

 

Since darkspawn/blight and Grey Wardens are such I big part of Dragon Age I just wish there was more ongoing intelligent dialogue regarding the ongoing risk and benefit with in-game NPC and companions. 

 

I love that DAI had great thought provoking choices like this one. With the significance of blight/darkspawn and Grey Wardens I would have also enjoyed seeing follow-up dialogue from at least the leaders Orlais and Ferelden especially if you exile the Grey Spawn but Bioware had a lot of story lines to juggle in DAI.

 

DAI had a proto-darkspawn leading a possible AD to destroy Thedas and yet there is only silence from Weisshaupt especially after the world shaking failure of the southern Grey Spawn. It would have been an extra nice game moment to continue dialogue in-game on the odd silence from Weisshaupt since we will hopefully find out in a future game why they didn't respond. It would have made an even richer world in DAI IMHO, assuming problems in Weisshaupt will be important in a future game.

 

Also would have been even better if Bioware let there be more than just one southern Grey Warden that was not sack full of hammers derpy enough to blindly follow a questionable plan from a too ridiculously obviously evil Vint mage. At least they had some Grey Spawn come to their senses once the Inquisition started killing them.

 

I'm surprised there wasn't an in-game easter egg comment how the Inquisition and Grey Spawn interaction at adamant fortress in DAI was like Sir Lancelot in Monthy Phython and the Holy Grail Red Wedding scene.

[robertthebard]

Sorry for not directly quoting anyone, but since everyone was basically running with the same thing, I think I'll be able to answer it w/out doing so:

 

Everyone we meet knows what the Wardens do, from the bandit on the bridge going into Lothering, to the dwarves to the Dalish.  Even w/out waving treaties around, they know that Wardens end Blights.  They may not know the specifics, but they do know why the order exists.  The reason for keeping the Joining a secret is laid out in Origins, during the HoF's Joining:  If people knew what it entailed, there wouldn't be any volunteers, and it may well make conscripting harder too.  The death blow for the AD is a "need to know", and most don't need to know.  I'd imagine that the senior Wardens pass it down much as Riordan did.

[DDJ]

Everything we see about their hierarchy suggests otherwise. We'd need them to be 

 

No, the better twist is that they were created by a Magister, like Corypheus and the Architect. Another master of the blight, but one who regretted everything. 

 

You are following my thoughts exactly.  These magisters can control the blight and hence the Wardens.

[DDJ]

Wouldn't be the first time the Wardens were exiled from a country. Orlais will not be safe for the wardens once it is known that they were the ones who killed the Divine and flooded the world with tears in the veil pouring demons into the world. No matter their reason for doing it, there has to be consequences for their actions at the Temple. Were they being controlled through blood magic or were they willing participants? Who really know how much influence Corypheus has over the Wardens? They are too dangerous at present to be allowed to remain.

 

Once Corypheus is dealt with, the Wardens can look to redeeming themselves.

 

That is a lot of redemption since it set the world into Chaos.  Perhaps they could consider the vague possibility that not committing atrocities would prevent the need for redemption.

[DDJ]

I didn't exile the Wardens simply because I wanted more troops and their war table missions give away a ton of good stuff.

 

Honestly though, considering that Solas wanted to blow up the world in the first place, the mages jumped on Tevinter's d*** at the first bad spot and the templars are crazy addicts who kill everyone who doesn't hate mages I'd say what the Warden's did is perfectly in tone with the morality of the setting.

 

Or rather the lack of morality.

[Cute Nug]

That is a lot of redemption since it set the world into Chaos.  Perhaps they could consider the vague possibility that not committing atrocities would prevent the need for redemption.

 

"He killed my Auntie!"

"Please, please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who." 

 

So they blew up peace talks, murdered the southern Divine, went to war with the Inquisition, and almost destroyed Thedas raising a demon army for a darkspawn. A nice adopt a highway or charity walk would probably even it out in most people's mind cuz Thedas is usually a pretty progressive open minded place.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sorry for not directly quoting anyone, but since everyone was basically running with the same thing, I think I'll be able to answer it w/out doing so:

 

Everyone we meet knows what the Wardens do, from the bandit on the bridge going into Lothering, to the dwarves to the Dalish.  Even w/out waving treaties around, they know that Wardens end Blights.  They may not know the specifics, but they do know why the order exists.  The reason for keeping the Joining a secret is laid out in Origins, during the HoF's Joining:  If people knew what it entailed, there wouldn't be any volunteers, and it may well make conscripting harder too.  The death blow for the AD is a "need to know", and most don't need to know.  I'd imagine that the senior Wardens pass it down much as Riordan did.

They know what the Wardens do, and they believe they know they're literally the only ones who can. But what I'm trying to say is that, even if it's true that they're literally necessary, everyone was being a little credulous assuming they were since nobody who doesn't need to know has access to any proof.

[Mistic]

They know what the Wardens do, and they believe they know they're literally the only ones who can. But what I'm trying to say is that, even if it's true that they're literally necessary, everyone was being a little credulous assuming they were since nobody who doesn't need to know has access to any proof.

 

This is Thedas. Throughout the three games released so far, we've seen that many, many, many things that are taken for granted in the setting are lies or the real facts have been twisted so much that they can't be recognized any longer. Heck, we've come from a game in which the Inquisitor can tell the truth about their miraculous Fade-walk to anyone willing to hear it, and still be known as "the Herald saved from the Breach by Blessed Andraste herself".

 

That you have to be very credulous to believe Wardens' claims without any proof is actually a reason for Thedosians to buy it, not the opposite.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

This is Thedas. Throughout the three games released so far, we've seen that many, many, many things that are taken for granted in the setting are lies or the real facts have been twisted so much that they can't be recognized any longer. Heck, we've come from a game in which the Inquisitor can tell the truth about their miraculous Fade-walk to anyone willing to hear it, and still be known as "the Herald saved from the Breach by Blessed Andraste herself".

 

That you have to be very credulous to believe Wardens' claims without any proof is actually a reason for Thedosians to buy it, not the opposite.

Sadly, you do actually have a point about being very credulous being Thedas's hat.

[diaspora2k5]

"He killed my Auntie!"

"Please, please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who." 

 

So they blew up peace talks, murdered the southern Divine, went to war with the Inquisition, and almost destroyed Thedas raising a demon army for a darkspawn. A nice adopt a highway or charity walk would probably even it out in most people's mind cuz Thedas is usually a pretty progressive open minded place.

They didn't technically do any of these things. AFAIK the Wardens at the conclave were all under the thralls of the guy who blew the place up using an object Solas gave him. Everything you just said- including the subsequent Qunari invasion attempt is all Solas' fault.

[Cute Nug]

They didn't technically do any of these things. AFAIK the Wardens at the conclave were all under the thralls of the guy who blew the place up using an object Solas gave him. Everything you just said- including the subsequent Qunari invasion attempt is all Solas' fault.

 

Agreed. Might end up the Venatori (which include all the rebel mages in some games) or even Tevinter get's blamed for all or some of this. The game seems to omit what public opinion is after the murder of the Divine. A crap storm was dropped on southern Thedas and I they won't just say it doesn't matter.

 

Since the Inquisition went to war against the southern Grey Wardens I would think there are some concerns and rumors of what transpired.

 

Doesn't matter what they technically did or had "reasons" to do. It matters what people are capable of believing. The Quizzy wasn't technically the Herald of Andraste but they actually were even if they refused the title and explained the truth.

 

It is an interesting area that hopefully will get some attention in a future game. DAI changed the world of the Grey Wardens. I'm interested to see what happens.

[Bardox9]

I don't think Corypheus can control people like that. He doesn't seem to hold sway over the Darkspawn like the AD's do. He wouldn't have needed the Red's or the Venatori if he could do that.What exactly that orb can do is still not clearly defined, so it's possible I suppose, but not certain. And if the Wardens can be controlled like that, that is even more reason to boot them out after you come out of the fade.

 

The "at all costs" part of the Wardens mentality  has always bugged me about them. There are some things you just don't do. Raising a demon army is one such a thing. Even Branka's Golem's might have been too far in DA:O, but the Dwarves are on the front lines of the Darkspawn menace which changes the calculation dramatically. "Your nightmare is my everyday."

 

Yes there are at least two more AD's and who knows how many of the original magisters are still skulking around. What is known is that a Blight does not end until a Grey Warden kills the AD. Five blights of evidence on that one. Does that actually kill the old god though? Corypheus' ability to survive by entering a Grey warden seems to bring this into question for me. Something to dig into later. It does stop the blight at least. So the Grey wardens are a necessity. They will eventually be needed again.

 

Exile.. for now anyway.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't think Corypheus can control people like that. He doesn't seem to hold sway over the Darkspawn like the AD's do. He wouldn't have needed the Red's or the Venatori if he could do that.What exactly that orb can do is still not clearly defined, so it's possible I suppose, but not certain. And if the Wardens can be controlled like that, that is even more reason to boot them out after you come out of the fade.

It's established he can control Wardens like that due to the Taint. He does it in his first appearance. Besides which he's a Tevinter Magister. They can control people anyway.

 

The point of the Venatori isn't that he can't make people do what he wants, but because you can get a lot more minions by finding people who agree with your aims and recruiting them than by limiting yourself to mind control. As for the Red Templars, they're tainted, so he can control them by the same way he controls the Wardens. If they show no signs of it, it might be that he's not exerting the effort (again: talking people around is a lot less effort over the long term,) or it might be that they receive orders and rationalize them.