1570 réponses à ce sujet

[ThePhoenixKing]

I don't think Corypheus can control people like that. He doesn't seem to hold sway over the Darkspawn like the AD's do. He wouldn't have needed the Red's or the Venatori if he could do that.What exactly that orb can do is still not clearly defined, so it's possible I suppose, but not certain. And if the Wardens can be controlled like that, that is even more reason to boot them out after you come out of the fade.

 

The "at all costs" part of the Wardens mentality  has always bugged me about them. There are some things you just don't do. Raising a demon army is one such a thing. Even Branka's Golem's might have been too far in DA:O, but the Dwarves are on the front lines of the Darkspawn menace which changes the calculation dramatically. "Your nightmare is my everyday."

 

Yes there are at least two more AD's and who knows how many of the original magisters are still skulking around. What is known is that a Blight does not end until a Grey Warden kills the AD. Five blights of evidence on that one. Does that actually kill the old god though? Corypheus' ability to survive by entering a Grey warden seems to bring this into question for me. Something to dig into later. It does stop the blight at least. So the Grey wardens are a necessity. They will eventually be needed again.

 

Exile.. for now anyway.

 

As a matter of fact, he call. Legacy makes it explicitly clear that he can psychically manipulate the Wardens, even unconsciously, thanks to the taint. Those Wardens who were with him when the Divine died weren't willing followers, they were being mind-controlled. The Wardens would never follow Corypheus willingly; Clariel's reaction to the false Archdemon is all the proof you need of that: their first reaction would be to kill him, not cut a deal.

 

I'm also uncertain that the other fallen Magisters possess the same mind-control ability, at least with the Wardens. The reason being is that the Architect never displayed any such power in any of his appearances, even when it would have been really handy for him to do so. He tries to convince the Wardens to aid him by some form of logic, not by tweaking their brains until they automatically fall in line. Until we see otherwise, we can't say for certain that it's an ability they all share.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As a matter of fact, he call. Legacy makes it explicitly clear that he can psychically manipulate the Wardens, even unconsciously, thanks to the taint. Those Wardens who were with him when the Divine died weren't willing followers, they were being mind-controlled. The Wardens would never follow Corypheus willingly; Clariel's reaction to the false Archdemon is all the proof you need of that: their first reaction would be to kill him, not cut a deal.

I almost said that there were Wardens who tried to use him before they sealed him away, but then it occurred to me that we don't know they were doing so willingly... undetectable mind spells have a way of making me paranoid.

[diaspora2k5]

I don't think Corypheus can control people like that. He doesn't seem to hold sway over the Darkspawn like the AD's do. He wouldn't have needed the Red's or the Venatori if he could do that.What exactly that orb can do is still not clearly defined, so it's possible I suppose, but not certain. And if the Wardens can be controlled like that, that is even more reason to boot them out after you come out of the fade.

 

The "at all costs" part of the Wardens mentality  has always bugged me about them. There are some things you just don't do. Raising a demon army is one such a thing. Even Branka's Golem's might have been too far in DA:O, but the Dwarves are on the front lines of the Darkspawn menace which changes the calculation dramatically. "Your nightmare is my everyday."

 

Yes there are at least two more AD's and who knows how many of the original magisters are still skulking around. What is known is that a Blight does not end until a Grey Warden kills the AD. Five blights of evidence on that one. Does that actually kill the old god though? Corypheus' ability to survive by entering a Grey warden seems to bring this into question for me. Something to dig into later. It does stop the blight at least. So the Grey wardens are a necessity. They will eventually be needed again.

 

Exile.. for now anyway.

Yes he would. The Wardens are like a few thousand strong at best diasporized across a continent with many of them in the deep roads or even out of Thedas entirely. The Red Templars and the Venatori were necessary loyalists.

[DDJ]

I don't think Corypheus can control people like that. He doesn't seem to hold sway over the Darkspawn like the AD's do. He wouldn't have needed the Red's or the Venatori if he could do that.What exactly that orb can do is still not clearly defined, so it's possible I suppose, but not certain. And if the Wardens can be controlled like that, that is even more reason to boot them out after you come out of the fade.

 

The "at all costs" part of the Wardens mentality  has always bugged me about them. There are some things you just don't do. Raising a demon army is one such a thing. Even Branka's Golem's might have been too far in DA:O, but the Dwarves are on the front lines of the Darkspawn menace which changes the calculation dramatically. "Your nightmare is my everyday."

 

Yes there are at least two more AD's and who knows how many of the original magisters are still skulking around. What is known is that a Blight does not end until a Grey Warden kills the AD. Five blights of evidence on that one. Does that actually kill the old god though? Corypheus' ability to survive by entering a Grey warden seems to bring this into question for me. Something to dig into later. It does stop the blight at least. So the Grey wardens are a necessity. They will eventually be needed again.

 

Exile.. for now anyway.

 

I agree.  Perhaps it would be well to look at other fanatical groups who will win at any cost.  Some of the terrorist groups in the world want to win at any cost.  During the barbaric ancient times there were generals who wished to win at any cost, even if that meant the massacre of all men, women and children.  Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun and Adolph Hitler wanted to win at any cost.  They were fanatical to a single cause.  

 

My own suspicion is that Solas knows a heck of a lot more about the blight than we were told.  He is the fade master after all and the one who created the veil.  His distrust of Warden fanaticism equals mine.  No matter the goal, it cannot be that they constantly escape punishment and control.  They have achieved power, absolute power it seems.  As it is said by smarter people than me.  Power  corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Hawke is right during the exchange with Stroud.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I agree.  Perhaps it would be well to look at other fanatical groups who will win at any cost.  Some of the terrorist groups in the world want to win at any cost.  During the barbaric ancient times there were generals who wished to win at any cost, even if that meant the massacre of all men, women and children.  Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun and Adolph Hitler wanted to win at any cost.  They were fanatical to a single cause.  

That they wanted to win at any cost doesn't mean everyone who wants to win at any cost is as evil as Hitler. Doing things Hitler did is only evil if the things themselves are evil. For example, did you know he was actually vegetarian? You have arguments that winning at any cost can lead to bad things, but this isn't a good one.

 

(Also, not for nothing, but I think those first two would feel insulted about being compared to that bastard.)

[DDJ]

That they wanted to win at any cost doesn't mean everyone who wants to win at any cost is as evil as Hitler. Doing things Hitler did is only evil if the things themselves are evil. For example, did you know he was actually vegetarian? You have arguments that winning at any cost can lead to bad things, but this isn't a good one.

 

(Also, not for nothing, but I think those first two would feel insulted about being compared to that bastard.)

 

Evil yes.  So was the murder of the Divine and the idea of raising a demon army.  The rank and file may not have agreed with Clarel's choice, but they did absolutely nothing to put it to an end.  Instead they hunted the Warden who wanted to put it to an end.  Evil is evil no matter how it is presented.  Keep in mind that if the blight is evil, the Wardens take it into themselves and are subject to its control.

[ThePhoenixKing]

I agree.  Perhaps it would be well to look at other fanatical groups who will win at any cost.  Some of the terrorist groups in the world want to win at any cost.  During the barbaric ancient times there were generals who wished to win at any cost, even if that meant the massacre of all men, women and children.  Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun and Adolph Hitler wanted to win at any cost.  They were fanatical to a single cause.  

 

My own suspicion is that Solas knows a heck of a lot more about the blight than we were told.  He is the fade master after all and the one who created the veil.  His distrust of Warden fanaticism equals mine.  No matter the goal, it cannot be that they constantly escape punishment and control.  They have achieved power, absolute power it seems.  As it is said by smarter people than me.  Power  corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Hawke is right during the exchange with Stroud.

 

I assume you've never heard of Godwin's Law, then? Seriously, the Wardens are akin to Hitler? You know, I'd appreciate the anti-Warden position a lot more if it wasn't rooted in such spurious, tinfoil-hat logic. What's next, the Wardens are working with the lizard people to take away America's guns because Benghazi?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Evil yes.  So was the murder of the Divine and the idea of raising a demon army.  The rank and file may not have agreed with Clarel's choice, but they did absolutely nothing to put it to an end.  Instead they hunted the Warden who wanted to put it to an end.  Evil is evil no matter how it is presented.  Keep in mind that if the blight is evil, the Wardens take it into themselves and are subject to its control.

(Now you're doing better.)

 

Keep in mind that in taking this evil force into themselves, they ended the Fourth Blight. And we've seen no evidence against the idea that they ended the others as they claim, and indeed no evidence that there is any other way. Morrigan doesn't so much come up with an alternative as reimagine and repurpose the way the Wardens do it while keeping the very basic mechanism intact, much as the Warden ritual itself repurposes the Archdemon's mechanism of reincarnation rather than directly thwarting it.

 

Yeah, you can argue that what the Wardens do is evil, but we know it ended the Fourth and Fifth Blights and there's not yet any canonical basis for thinking it didn't end the other three, or that the Fourth or Fifth could have ended without their actions. Bear in mind that the First Blight, which lasted slightly less than two centuries, was said to have almost ended humanity. Also bear in mind that the Fourth Blight has, as of Origins, been over for about four; if the Wardens hadn't ended the Blight, it probably would have killed everyone by then. So, to all appearances, either the Wardens' mindset of doing otherwise forbidden things when the need arises isn't evil, or else evil is sometimes necessary. (At least in this setting.)

[DDJ]

(Now you're doing better.)

 

Keep in mind that in taking this evil force into themselves, they ended the Fourth Blight. And we've seen no evidence against the idea that they ended the others as they claim, and indeed no evidence that there is any other way. Morrigan doesn't so much come up with an alternative as reimagine and repurpose the way the Wardens do it while keeping the very basic mechanism intact, much as the Warden ritual itself repurposes the Archdemon's mechanism of reincarnation rather than directly thwarting it.

 

Yeah, you can argue that what the Wardens do is evil, but we know it ended the Fourth and Fifth Blights and there's not yet any canonical basis for thinking it didn't end the other three, or that the Fourth or Fifth could have ended without their actions. Bear in mind that the First Blight, which lasted slightly less than two centuries, was said to have almost ended humanity. Also bear in mind that the Fourth Blight has, as of Origins, been over for about four; if the Wardens hadn't ended the Blight, it probably would have killed everyone by then. So, to all appearances, either the Wardens' mindset of doing otherwise forbidden things when the need arises isn't evil, or else evil is sometimes necessary. (At least in this setting.)

 

I fully respect your opinion.  However, when evil battles evil the winner is always the same.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I fully respect your opinion.  However, when evil battles evil the winner is always the same.

When a lesser evil defeats a greater evil, it's arguably a net loss for evil.

[Bardox9]

It's established he can control Wardens like that due to the Taint. He does it in his first appearance. Besides which he's a Tevinter Magister. They can control people anyway.

 

The point of the Venatori isn't that he can't make people do what he wants, but because you can get a lot more minions by finding people who agree with your aims and recruiting them than by limiting yourself to mind control. As for the Red Templars, they're tainted, so he can control them by the same way he controls the Wardens. If they show no signs of it, it might be that he's not exerting the effort (again: talking people around is a lot less effort over the long term,) or it might be that they receive orders and rationalize them.

I assume by "his first appearance" you are talking about the thing with Hawke in DA2. He wasn't controlling those Wardens. He could whisper to them through the taint, but that's it. Janeka wasn't being controlled. She thought she found an ultimate weapon to use against the darkspawn and was resolved to unleash it. Again I point to the "at all costs" mentality. It was her pride that deluded her into believing she could control him.

 

The only thing "established" is that he can possess a warden. And if he can do that, then why can an old god not do it? Which is why I am uncertain as to whether or not the old god actually does die when a Grey Warden kills the AD. A curiosity.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I assume by "his first appearance" you are talking about the thing with Hawke in DA2. He wasn't controlling those Wardens. He could whisper to them through the taint, but that's it. Janeka wasn't being controlled. She thought she found an ultimate weapon to use against the darkspawn and was resolved to unleash it. Again I point to the "at all costs" mentality. It was her pride that deluded her into believing she could control him.

 

The only thing "established" is that he can possess a warden. And if he can do that, then why can an old god not do it? Which is why I am uncertain as to whether or not the old god actually does die when a Grey Warden kills the AD. A curiosity.

The Codex states that the reason he was sealed as securely as he was was that he kept taking control of Wardens to try to get them to break the seals he was already under. They couldn't effectively guard him, so they sealed him away. Then he tried to break the seals by taking control of the local branch of the Carta, which worked because he turned them into ghouls and controlled them just as he controlled the Wardens. Even if he didn't control Janeka in the first place to make this seem like a good idea, it's established that he can control tainted beings.

 

Cory's reincarnation ability does seem like it throws a wrench in the theory behind the US, but if the Old Gods were still alive you'd expect it would have come up. Though since Urthemiel might be about to become relevant, since if the Warden did the DR Flemeth took Urthemiel's soul and Solas (probably the Final Boss of DA4) presumably has it now... well, if the Old Gods who "died" in a US still exist, DA4 will probably be the game that establishes it.

[Cute Nug]

When a lesser evil defeats a greater evil, it's arguably a net loss for evil.

 

"He's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight."

 

Bioware didn't do it perfectly but I like some of the complexities in their cumulative crafting of the Grey Wardens in the overall Dragon Age story. It's not a bad try to create something interesting. I don't know if they can pull it off with all the story lines they are juggling but it might be interesting where they take the story.

[In Exile]

(Now you're doing better.)

Keep in mind that in taking this evil force into themselves, they ended the Fourth Blight. And we've seen no evidence against the idea that they ended the others as they claim, and indeed no evidence that there is any other way. Morrigan doesn't so much come up with an alternative as reimagine and repurpose the way the Wardens do it while keeping the very basic mechanism intact, much as the Warden ritual itself repurposes the Archdemon's mechanism of reincarnation rather than directly thwarting it.

Yeah, you can argue that what the Wardens do is evil, but we know it ended the Fourth and Fifth Blights and there's not yet any canonical basis for thinking it didn't end the other three, or that the Fourth or Fifth could have ended without their actions. Bear in mind that the First Blight, which lasted slightly less than two centuries, was said to have almost ended humanity. Also bear in mind that the Fourth Blight has, as of Origins, been over for about four; if the Wardens hadn't ended the Blight, it probably would have killed everyone by then. So, to all appearances, either the Wardens' mindset of doing otherwise forbidden things when the need arises isn't evil, or else evil is sometimes necessary. (At least in this setting.)

There's no evidence that their way works as advertised. We can prove that the AD revives if a non GW kills it. We can't prove that an AD has its soul destroyed if a GW kills it. Thedas isn't POE - we can't measure souls. We don't know what happens to the OG when it dies by a GW blow. Assuming it wasn't just an effect we get a huge explosion. That isn't much to go on.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

There's no evidence that their way works as advertised. We can prove that the AD revives if a non GW kills it. We can't prove that an AD has its soul destroyed if a GW kills it. Thedas isn't POE - we can't measure souls. We don't know what happens to the OG when it dies by a GW blow. Assuming it wasn't just an effect we get a huge explosion. That isn't much to go on.

There's decent evidence that it ends the Blight, which is rather the important bit.

[In Exile]

There's decent evidence that it ends the Blight, which is rather the important bit.

But not for the reasons the Grey Wardens give, which matters to evaluating their importance.

[DDJ]

When a lesser evil defeats a greater evil, it's arguably a net loss for evil.

 

Rather it is a win for evil no matter who wins.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But not for the reasons the Grey Wardens give, which matters to evaluating their importance.

Morrigan takes as read that the reincarnation effect exists, and comes up with a way to thwart it that makes a Kieran who exists in a World State in which it was performed different from a Kieran from a World State in which it was not performed. Meanwhile Riordan does the same, and comes up with a way to thwart it that leaves the Warden who employs it dead barring Morrigan's bugfix. If the very basics of the Warden theory (Archdemon has a Taint-based mechanism that allows it to reincarnate, but can't reincarnate if it accidentally possesses a Grey Warden) were not correct, there would be no reason for the Warden who does the US to die or for Kieran to be possessed by what is to all appearances the Old God's Soul. (The explosion would explain the Warden's death, were it not for the fact that it still happens if the DR was performed and the Warden survives it.)

 

 

Rather it is a win for evil no matter who wins.

Maybe, but it's not as much of one. The world being destroyed is a bigger win for evil* than a group that prevents the world from being destroyed making some moral compromises to do so. Especially if there really is, to all appearances, no other way.

 

*If a concept can win things, which I don't think it actually can outside of Forgotten Realms.

[robertthebard]

There's no evidence that their way works as advertised. We can prove that the AD revives if a non GW kills it. We can't prove that an AD has its soul destroyed if a GW kills it. Thedas isn't POE - we can't measure souls. We don't know what happens to the OG when it dies by a GW blow. Assuming it wasn't just an effect we get a huge explosion. That isn't much to go on.

Actually, we sort of can prove it with Kieran.  If you do the DR, then he has the OG's soul.  If you don't, and he exists, he doesn't.  The AD's dead, since the Blight ends, and he isn't heard from again in the 10+ years between the end of Origins and the beginning of Inquisition.  This runs contrary to what we've been told happens if there's no Warden to take the killing blow, in that we've been told that the Blight continues.  In fact, the opposite would seem to be true:  A Warden killing the AD kills the OG too, since the AD is a tainted OG.  When one dies, both die, barring the DR, of course, which is performed to preserve the OG's soul.  This is what we're told by Morrigan when the DR is dropped on us.

[Bardox9]

The Codex states that the reason he was sealed as securely as he was was that he kept taking control of Wardens to try to get them to break the seals he was already under. They couldn't effectively guard him, so they sealed him away. Then he tried to break the seals by taking control of the local branch of the Carta, which worked because he turned them into ghouls and controlled them just as he controlled the Wardens. Even if he didn't control Janeka in the first place to make this seem like a good idea, it's established that he can control tainted beings.

 

Cory's reincarnation ability does seem like it throws a wrench in the theory behind the US, but if the Old Gods were still alive you'd expect it would have come up. Though since Urthemiel might be about to become relevant, since if the Warden did the DR Flemeth took Urthemiel's soul and Solas (probably the Final Boss of DA4) presumably has it now... well, if the Old Gods who "died" in a US still exist, DA4 will probably be the game that establishes it.

I don't think the "control" in the codex means what you think it means. When Corypheus dies, he possesses the nearest blighted creature and is reborn. Even if that creature is a Warden. So when they killed him he would take the body of the warden. It doesn't say he forced them to do things. He used their bodies for his rebirth. They couldn't kill him so they locked him away. Corypheus can't (or at least hasn't shown the ability) to force someone to act against their own will outside of the average bloodmages ability to do so. Even that is limited and temporary. The blight may allow Corypheus to whisper to the wardens, but actually taking control of a Warden (coercing them to do things without their consent) has not been displayed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't think the "control" in the codex means what you think it means. When Corypheus dies, he possesses the nearest blighted creature and is reborn. Even if that creature is a Warden. So when they killed him he would take the body of the warden. It doesn't say he forced them to do things. He used their bodies for his rebirth. They couldn't kill him so they locked him away. Corypheus can't (or at least hasn't shown the ability) to force someone to act against their own will outside of the average bloodmages ability to do so. Even that is limited and temporary. The blight may allow Corypheus to whisper to the wardens, but actually taking control of a Warden (coercing them to do things without their consent) has not been displayed.

 

He can control grey wardens , when he was in prison wardens were reported to seek way to free him when they were removed from his influence they didn't remember what happened.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't think the "control" in the codex means what you think it means. When Corypheus dies, he possesses the nearest blighted creature and is reborn. Even if that creature is a Warden. So when they killed him he would take the body of the warden. It doesn't say he forced them to do things. He used their bodies for his rebirth. They couldn't kill him so they locked him away. Corypheus can't (or at least hasn't shown the ability) to force someone to act against their own will outside of the average bloodmages ability to do so. Even that is limited and temporary. The blight may allow Corypheus to whisper to the wardens, but actually taking control of a Warden (coercing them to do things without their consent) has not been displayed.

After Shepherd's reply, most of what I'd say would be redundant. One thing I will add to it is that the only thing that sounds anything like what you describe is Corypheus "staying the hand of those who seek to slay him," and that even that requires you to stretch the text a fair bit.

[robertthebard]

I don't think the "control" in the codex means what you think it means. When Corypheus dies, he possesses the nearest blighted creature and is reborn. Even if that creature is a Warden. So when they killed him he would take the body of the warden. It doesn't say he forced them to do things. He used their bodies for his rebirth. They couldn't kill him so they locked him away. Corypheus can't (or at least hasn't shown the ability) to force someone to act against their own will outside of the average bloodmages ability to do so. Even that is limited and temporary. The blight may allow Corypheus to whisper to the wardens, but actually taking control of a Warden (coercing them to do things without their consent) has not been displayed.

That would, of course, mean that the Wardens we see with him at the Temple were there willingly?  IF that were true, it would certainly be a factor in swaying me to exiling them every time.

 

The truth is somewhat more complicated.  You see, if whispering in someone's "ear" as a means to get them to do what you want isn't controlling them, I'll need to find a new definition for control.  He manipulated them to the point that they were willing to serve the Blight, instead of fighting it.  Does that really fit into the "by whatever means necessary" scenario?  They're going to beat the Blight by allowing it to break free and destroy the world?  Ultimately, that's exactly what they accomplished, isn't it?  Well, he attempted to destroy the world, anyway.

[DDJ]

That would, of course, mean that the Wardens we see with him at the Temple were there willingly?  IF that were true, it would certainly be a factor in swaying me to exiling them every time.

 

The truth is somewhat more complicated.  You see, if whispering in someone's "ear" as a means to get them to do what you want isn't controlling them, I'll need to find a new definition for control.  He manipulated them to the point that they were willing to serve the Blight, instead of fighting it.  Does that really fit into the "by whatever means necessary" scenario?  They're going to beat the Blight by allowing it to break free and destroy the world?  Ultimately, that's exactly what they accomplished, isn't it?  Well, he attempted to destroy the world, anyway.

 

Very well put.

[Bfler]

It's similar to the Geth in ME. In ME 1 and ME 2 the Geth are killer machines. In ME 3 the writers suddenly decided to depict them as victims and misunderstood good robots.

In Origins the Wardens are an order of brave knights and heroes, then with Inquisition the writers do a backflip and they are suddenly only a bunch of criminals.