1570 réponses à ce sujet

[DDJ]

It's similar to the Geth in ME. In ME 1 and ME 2 the Geth are killer machines. In ME 3 the writers suddenly decided to depict them as victims and misunderstood good robots.

In Origins the Wardens are an order of brave knights and heroes, then with Inquisition the writers do a backflip and they are suddenly only a bunch of criminals. 

 

I certainly agree that is what the writers had in mind in DAO, but in the first conversation with Alastair HoF asks if they are heroes and he says no, he would not go that far.  The intent seriously began to deteriorate with the murder of Jory, the forced blood drinking, the willing use by Sophiqa Dryden to summon demons - must be a Warden thing using them in armies - and so on.  Of course, and this is how it comes up in my conversations with Alastair, right after I finish going through the Deep Roads he provides the joyful news that Duncan murdered me although one of the first questions available in the camp following the nightmares is something along the lines of "any other surprises I should no of?"  He says no, but he obviously knows and is hiding it.  He comes across as a user in addition to Morrigan's comments being apt.  So the descent to darkness began in DAO.  In DA2 we find Stroud abandoning Kirkwall to the Qunari, and if you take Bethany to the DR she either dies or is forced into the Wardens.  After all, they apparently save no tainted person unless they agree to be a Warden.  And in DAI we see them once again resorting to the "let's summon a demon army for the greater good."  Recall too that Gareth was a cut purse and thief.  So there really is not a total backflip, only a case where they are more fully realized.  

[VorexRyder]

I certainly agree that is what the writers had in mind in DAO, but in the first conversation with Alastair HoF asks if they are heroes and he says no, he would not go that far.  The intent seriously began to deteriorate with the murder of Jory, the forced blood drinking, the willing use by Sophiqa Dryden to summon demons - must be a Warden thing using them in armies - and so on.  Of course, and this is how it comes up in my conversations with Alastair, right after I finish going through the Deep Roads he provides the joyful news that Duncan murdered me although one of the first questions available in the camp following the nightmares is something along the lines of "any other surprises I should no of?"  He says no, but he obviously knows and is hiding it.  He comes across as a user in addition to Morrigan's comments being apt.  So the descent to darkness began in DAO.  In DA2 we find Stroud abandoning Kirkwall to the Qunari, and if you take Bethany to the DR she either dies or is forced into the Wardens.  After all, they apparently save no tainted person unless they agree to be a Warden.  And in DAI we see them once again resorting to the "let's summon a demon army for the greater good."  Recall too that Gareth was a cut purse and thief.  So there really is not a total backflip, only a case where they are more fully realized.  

You can't save someone from the Taint without making them Wardens. Jory knew that the Joining involved drinking Darkspawn Blood, letting him live would have been stupid. "Duncan Murdered Me", no. Duncan made you into a Super Soldier with 'immunity' to the Taint, in order to save the world. Stroud.- What's the difference between Qunari vs. Tevinter, Orlais vs. Tevinter, Qunari vs. Free Marches & Rivain compared with Qunari vs. Kirkwall. Wardens stop Blights, that's their job, not fighting in wars between Nations.

 

The Wardens thought they were going extinct and were being subtly mind-whamied by a House-sized  Fear Demon that lives in the shadow of the Black City, at the guidance of a Magister Sidereal who hadn't lost his memories and power, further boosted by Red Lyrium and Solas' Orb. Their attempt was a gamble in order to try and save the world, that the world didn't actually need saving doesn't change the fact that they were tricked into thinking so by a super-demon & super-duper-Magister Sidereal combo.

 

You sound like a brat.

[Bardox9]

He can control grey wardens , when he was in prison wardens were reported to seek way to free him when they were removed from his influence they didn't remember what happened.

 

What you discribe is the effect mind control via blood magi. A feat which any mage, that has studied and practices the art, could replicate. It has nothing to do with them being Grey Wardens, him being a Darkspawn Magister, or even the taint.

 

After Shepherd's reply, most of what I'd say would be redundant. One thing I will add to it is that the only thing that sounds anything like what you describe is Corypheus "staying the hand of those who seek to slay him," and that even that requires you to stretch the text a fair bit.

See the above. This is no different than when Idunna was able to captivate Hawke and his party for a time in DA2. This is hardly magic worthy of the efforts they went through to contain Corypheus. It's his rebirth ability that got his locked away. The Wardens were not being forced to do anything. They were tricked into believing they were all going through the calling at the same time and were desperate to bring an end to blights once and for all by any means possible, never mind if it was necessary or not.

 

That would, of course, mean that the Wardens we see with him at the Temple were there willingly?  IF that were true, it would certainly be a factor in swaying me to exiling them every time.

 

The truth is somewhat more complicated.  You see, if whispering in someone's "ear" as a means to get them to do what you want isn't controlling them, I'll need to find a new definition for control.  He manipulated them to the point that they were willing to serve the Blight, instead of fighting it.  Does that really fit into the "by whatever means necessary" scenario?  They're going to beat the Blight by allowing it to break free and destroy the world?  Ultimately, that's exactly what they accomplished, isn't it?  Well, he attempted to destroy the world, anyway.

It's not control if there is still a choice to be made. The Wardens always had a choice. They may not have had good choices, but they had choices. They chose demons.

 

A Mage from Tevinter dangled a little power in front of them and they jumped at it. "Do this and the blights are over forever. Isn't that worth anything cost?" and they bought it whole sale. Fear, desperation, a death wish? It's the same as what happened at Soldiers Peak. Faced with certain death they turned to demons. Cause ya know... that always turns out so well.

[In Exile]

Actually, we sort of can prove it with Kieran.  If you do the DR, then he has the OG's soul.  If you don't, and he exists, he doesn't.  The AD's dead, since the Blight ends, and he isn't heard from again in the 10+ years between the end of Origins and the beginning of Inquisition.  This runs contrary to what we've been told happens if there's no Warden to take the killing blow, in that we've been told that the Blight continues.  In fact, the opposite would seem to be true:  A Warden killing the AD kills the OG too, since the AD is a tainted OG.  When one dies, both die, barring the DR, of course, which is performed to preserve the OG's soul.  This is what we're told by Morrigan when the DR is dropped on us.

 

No, we can't. That proves that Morrigan is right about her part of the ritual: that there is a blood magic conduit by which we can insert the soul of an OG into another being. It contradicts what the GWs tell us: that two souls cannot co-exist in one body. This is not just a matter of hand-waving it away as it being the soul of a child - that doesn't make sense, as it's a second one, and it clearly develops totally independently from the OG. 

 

What you're misunderstanding here that just because we see the consequence doesn't mean we prove the explanation. This is why phlogiston chemistry - a theory that made true predictions - is no longer an acceptable theory. 

[DDJ]

You can't save someone from the Taint without making them Wardens. Jory knew that the Joining involved drinking Darkspawn Blood, letting him live would have been stupid. "Duncan Murdered Me", no. Duncan made you into a Super Soldier with 'immunity' to the Taint, in order to save the world. Stroud.- What's the difference between Qunari vs. Tevinter, Orlais vs. Tevinter, Qunari vs. Free Marches & Rivain compared with Qunari vs. Kirkwall. Wardens stop Blights, that's their job, not fighting in wars between Nations.

 

The Wardens thought they were going extinct and were being subtly mind-whamied by a House-sized  Fear Demon that lives in the shadow of the Black City, at the guidance of a Magister Sidereal who hadn't lost his memories and power, further boosted by Red Lyrium and Solas' Orb. Their attempt was a gamble in order to try and save the world, that the world didn't actually need saving doesn't change the fact that they were tricked into thinking so by a super-demon & super-duper-Magister Sidereal combo.

 

You sound like a brat.

 

Sorry that you think that.  Perhaps it is only the fact that the lack of a moral center by the Wardens conflicts with my own lack of acceptance of murder, massacres and atrocities all of which the Wardens have been involved in during the games.  And to the point of super soldier, he actually made the HoF into a ghoul.  Any skills or abilities in the game already belonged to me.  All he did was seize someone whose luck had gone sour and insured that any kind of a normal life was impossible.  Instead, like the warrior Vikings, you get to dedicate your life to war and death.  They believed that being killed in battle was a sure ticket to Valhalla if it was a heroic death.  Considering the fact that they burned towns, murdered innocents, enslaved people, gleefully presided over massacres and ad infinitum hardly qualifies the Vikings as either super soldiers or particularly noble.  The same can be said of the Wardens.  The only difference is that the Vikings did not have a get out of jail free card.  When they were caught, they were killed out of hand.  As to HoF, Duncan gave me no skills and no knowledge of import.  He made the HoF into a ghoul for expediency's sake because he needed troops.  Considering the fact that two thirds of his choices ended up dead I am rather glad that he did not bequeath the HoF with his judgement.  

 

I respect your loyalty to the Wardens, but it does not negate the less than admirable qualities about them.  They do claim to have stopped five blights which is a good thing.  i cannot and will not accept an above the law group who never has any consequence to pay for their actions.

[In Exile]

Hold up. Where is there evidence the Joining makes you more able? The only line we ever get about that is a flirt by Morrigan, which is a totally different thing and meant to be something else with no connection to GWs. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's similar to the Geth in ME. In ME 1 and ME 2 the Geth are killer machines. In ME 3 the writers suddenly decided to depict them as victims and misunderstood good robots.

In Origins the Wardens are an order of brave knights and heroes, then with Inquisition the writers do a backflip and they are suddenly only a bunch of criminals. 

 

Grey wardens were never an order of brave knights and heroes unless you fell in trap of Wynne and folk stories.Dao clearly showed us that grey wardens are miles from nice guys.

 

What you discribe is the effect mind control via blood magi. A feat which any mage, that has studied and practices the art, could replicate. It has nothing to do with them being Grey Wardens, him being a Darkspawn Magister, or even the taint.

Corypheus was unconscious so how could he use blood magic, aside from that blood magic requires blood.Even solas mentions that his fake calling was blight magic so it obvious that his powers came from taint.

[robertthebard]

{snip}

It's not control if there is still a choice to be made. The Wardens always had a choice. They may not have had good choices, but they had choices. They chose demons.

 

A Mage from Tevinter dangled a little power in front of them and they jumped at it. "Do this and the blights are over forever. Isn't that worth anything cost?" and they bought it whole sale. Fear, desperation, a death wish? It's the same as what happened at Soldiers Peak. Faced with certain death they turned to demons. Cause ya know... that always turns out so well.

So the Wardens we see at the ritual that causes the breech were there willingly.  In that case, there is no redemption possible, and exile is the only way to deal with them.  They had a choice in Legacy:  Listen to the whispers, or ignore them, and so, according to your logic, they willingly did everything they could to release a darkspawn magister that others in the order had deemed too dangerous to leave free, onto the world?

 

This is not the impression that I came away from either Legacy, or DA I with.  In fact, the scene in the Western Approach, prior to Adamant, sort of gives the lie to "He can't control them", since even his Venatori minion can control them after the ritual to summon a demon.  "Wardens, hands up".  Did that scene not happen in your game?  Did the Wardens present and the demons they'd summoned not attack you immediately after?  What lines of dialog did you pursue to get that outcome, because I want to try it for myself.

[Bardox9]

Corypheus was unconscious so how could he use blood magic, aside from that blood magic requires blood.Even solas mentions that his fake calling was blight magic so it obvious that his powers came for taint.

Faking the calling was done through the blight all Wardens carry, yes. That is still not control. While he slept in his prison Corypheus dreamed and called out similar to the way the old gods do. A call the Darkspawn are powerless to resist. It could be argued that they even crave it. Grey Wardens can hear the call, some can eventually understand the voices but they are not slave to it. There is always a choice, in regards to the calling, for a Warden. Their immunity does not only mean they can survive infection for a time, but they are not controlled by the call as the Darkspawn are. That is the immunity the Architect was seeking in DA:A. To break the compulsion.

 

The Wardens of Orlais believed a lie and went eagerly to the worst possible extreme in response.

[DDJ]

So the Wardens we see at the ritual that causes the breech were there willingly.  In that case, there is no redemption possible, and exile is the only way to deal with them.  They had a choice in Legacy:  Listen to the whispers, or ignore them, and so, according to your logic, they willingly did everything they could to release a darkspawn magister that others in the order had deemed too dangerous to leave free, onto the world?

 

This is not the impression that I came away from either Legacy, or DA I with.  In fact, the scene in the Western Approach, prior to Adamant, sort of gives the lie to "He can't control them", since even his Venatori minion can control them after the ritual to summon a demon.  "Wardens, hands up".  Did that scene not happen in your game?  Did the Wardens present and the demons they'd summoned not attack you immediately after?  What lines of dialog did you pursue to get that outcome, because I want to try it for myself.

 

With respect I think you are reading the comment a bit off from the intent.  It is clear from what the Tevinter says that the mages who use the binding ritual are slaves to C.  The point is that BEFORE there was a binding they planned the big sacrifice of the Divine.  It was premeditated.  More so, after C abandons them at Adamant they are freed from his control.   So perhaps he can control them, but he did not control them when they were planning the crime.  So control yes, and the wardens at the conclave were there willingly as part of the plan.  After all Clarel apparently ordered it.  They may have been under control, but control or not the crime remains.

[Bardox9]

So the Wardens we see at the ritual that causes the breech were there willingly.  In that case, there is no redemption possible, and exile is the only way to deal with them.  They had a choice in Legacy:  Listen to the whispers, or ignore them, and so, according to your logic, they willingly did everything they could to release a darkspawn magister that others in the order had deemed too dangerous to leave free, onto the world?

 

This is not the impression that I came away from either Legacy, or DA I with.  In fact, the scene in the Western Approach, prior to Adamant, sort of gives the lie to "He can't control them", since even his Venatori minion can control them after the ritual to summon a demon.  "Wardens, hands up".  Did that scene not happen in your game?  Did the Wardens present and the demons they'd summoned not attack you immediately after?  What lines of dialog did you pursue to get that outcome, because I want to try it for myself.

The wardens that bound themselves to demons were bound also to blood mage instructing them (a part of the ritual I doubt they were aware of) and by extension enslaved to Corypheus. But prior to performing the binding ritual they were not controlled. Just desperate. The Inquisitor doesn't arrive until the final warden present has been bound by the Venatori's rite. The glowing red eyes were a bit of a tell there. Which is why the Venatori felt safe to put on his little display. Damage done.

 

They were being controlled by Blood magic and demon's AFTER they perform the binding ritual. Not before. It wasn't the blight in their blood. Not Corypheus' fake calling. None of the Wardens at the temple had demons beside them (doesn't mean they weren't there but we don't see them). So again, no sign of being forced to do anything they didn't want to do or at least do anything they didn't believe to be necessary.

[robertthebard]

Faking the calling was done through the blight all Wardens carry, yes. That is still not control. While he slept in his prison Corypheus dreamed and called out similar to the way the old gods do. A call the Darkspawn are powerless to resist. It could be argued that they even crave it. Grey Wardens can hear the call, some can eventually understand the voices but they are not slave to it. There is always a choice, in regards to the calling, for a Warden. Their immunity does not only mean they can survive infection for a time, but they are not controlled by the call as the Darkspawn are. That is the immunity the Architect was seeking in DA:A. To break the compulsion.

 

The Wardens of Orlais believed a lie and went eagerly to the worst possible extreme in response.

What is it then?  If I'm making you do what I want you to do, how am I not controlling you?  The thing that you're missing here seems to be that he was indeed controlling the Wardens especially in Legacy.  He had them doing exactly what he wanted them to do, releasing him.  He'd been locked up there for what, a thousand years, by the Wardens.  Is it your position that Janeka decided that they didn't know what they were doing on her own?  He convinced her, and he got her to do exactly what he wanted.  That seems to be the very definition of control to me.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Faking the calling was done through the blight all Wardens carry, yes. That is still not control. While he slept in his prison Corypheus dreamed and called out similar to the way the old gods do. A call the Darkspawn are powerless to resist. It could be argued that they even crave it. Grey Wardens can hear the call, some can eventually understand the voices but they are not slave to it. There is always a choice, in regards to the calling, for a Warden. Their immunity does not only mean they can survive infection for a time, but they are not controlled by the call as the Darkspawn are. That is the immunity the Architect was seeking in DA:A. To break the compulsion.

 

The Wardens of Orlais believed a lie and went eagerly to the worst possible extreme in response.

 

Corypheus is able only extent control over grey wardens in close proximity to him as it is said in codex, that is why he couldn't control whole order. As we see with Carta infected with blight and Janeka, Corypheus was able to affect them into doing what he wanted (not manipulation) and control wardens mentioned in codex, in fact grey wardens found they were unable to kill him because of that . Grey wardens can't hear call unless they are soon about turn into ghoul or they are near old god and then they can actually hear call what wasn't in case of Corypheus one. Corypheus call isn't same as those come from Old God, corypheus call and can affect grey wardens.

 

 

What is it then?  If I'm making you do what I want you to do, how am I not controlling you?  The thing that you're missing here seems to be that he was indeed controlling the Wardens especially in Legacy.  He had them doing exactly what he wanted them to do, releasing him.  He'd been locked up there for what, a thousand years, by the Wardens.  Is it your position that Janeka decided that they didn't know what they were doing on her own?  He convinced her, and he got her to do exactly what he wanted.  That seems to be the very definition of control to me.

 

Well , grey wardens in dai were manipulated just by using calling as fear tactic rather than controlled in contrast those mentioned in codex ,carta turned ghouls and Janeka.

[Bfler]

Grey wardens were never an order of brave knights and heroes unless you fell in trap of Wynne and folk stories.Dao clearly showed us that grey wardens are miles from nice guys.

In Origins they are presented as heroes (-> the typical Crusader Templar guys, you can see in games and movies). It starts with the battle of Ostagar, where Duncan and the other Wardens fight bravely against the darkspawn and die after Loghain's betrayal, and ends with the battle of Denerim and Alistairs speech, which ends with "For Ferelden, For the Grey Wardens" -> the army charges with shouting

The player is Warden and Hero of Ferelden and finally defeats the archdemon, the big bad guy. Alistair, his/her closest friend, the typical young lad and chick magnet, is a Warden.

And furthermore in Awakening you and your fellow Warden companions have to save Amaranthine + your castle is more or less the breakwater for the darkspawn horde of the disgusting brood mother (-> like the castle in NWN 2)

 

The ritual with the blood is meant to show, that a person, who wants to be a Warden, has to offer a personal sacrifice. Once a Warden, always a Warden.

 

 

Where are the signs, that Wardens are bad guys?

[Bardox9]

What is it then?  If I'm making you do what I want you to do, how am I not controlling you?  The thing that you're missing here seems to be that he was indeed controlling the Wardens especially in Legacy.  He had them doing exactly what he wanted them to do, releasing him.  He'd been locked up there for what, a thousand years, by the Wardens.  Is it your position that Janeka decided that they didn't know what they were doing on her own?  He convinced her, and he got her to do exactly what he wanted.  That seems to be the very definition of control to me.

What is it? It's manipulation. Corypheus set the stage and let the Wardens do as they will. Heshowed them a door. That's all he could do. The Wardens are the one's who chose to go through it. You don't need to convince someone who is slave to your will to do something. They do it because they have no choice. If you have to convince them then they have a choice. Persuading someone to do something is not the same as controlling them.

 

Corypheus is able only extent control over grey wardens in close proximity to him as it is said in codex, that is why he couldn't control whole order. As we see with Carta infected with blight and Janeka, Corypheus was able to affect them into doing what he wanted (not manipulation) and control wardens mentioned in codex. Grey wardens can't hear call unless they are soon about turn into ghoul or they are near old god and then they can actually hear call. Corypheus call isn't same as those come from Old God, corypheus call and can affect grey wardens.

Again, the control you describe just paints him as a bloodmage. It doesn't mean it has anything to do with the taint. I brought up Idunna before. She could do that. A Magister of ancient Tevinter she is not. Doesn't have anything to do with Corypheus being a darkspawn nor his jailors being Grey Wardens. A non-blighted blood mage could have performed the control you describe on their jailors, grey warden or no.

 

And I didn't say Corypheus' call was the same as the old gods call. I said it was similar. Or at least functions closely enough to the old gods call that he could mimic it. Mere conjecture, but I think his call is considerably weaker than that of the old gods. Other wise why use the Reds? Why not just use the Darkspawn the way the AD's do. Even accounting for the Darkspawn that died during the Blight, their numbers are still enormous. There are probably more of them then there are rouge templars and/or rebel mages. Even if you add in the wardens, I doubt you would match the Darkspawns numbers.

[DDJ]

In Origins they are presented as heroes (-> the typical Crusader Templar guys, you can see in games and movies). It starts with the battle of Ostagar, where Duncan and the other Wardens fight bravely against the darkspawn and die after Loghain's betrayal, and ends with the battle of Denerim and Alistairs speech, which ends with "For Ferelden, For the Grey Wardens" -> the army charges with shouting

The player is Warden and Hero of Ferelden and finally defeats the archdemon, the big bad guy. Alistair, his/her closest friend, the typical young lad and chick magnet, is a Warden.

And furthermore in Awakening you and your fellow Warden companions have to save Amaranthine + your castle is more or less the breakwater for the darkspawn horde of the disgusting brood mother (-> like the castle in NWN 2)

 

The ritual with the blood is meant to show, that a person, who wants to be a Warden, has to offer a personal sacrifice. Once a Warden, always a Warden.

 

 

Where are the signs, that Wardens are bad guys?

 

Which begs the question what about those who did not want to be Wardens and were forced to do so.  What is their out?

[DDJ]

The wardens that bound themselves to demons were bound also to blood mage instructing them (a part of the ritual I doubt they were aware of) and by extension enslaved to Corypheus. But prior to performing the binding ritual they were not controlled. Just desperate. The Inquisitor doesn't arrive until the final warden present has been bound by the Venatori's rite. The glowing red eyes were a bit of a tell there. Which is why the Venatori felt safe to put on his little display. Damage done.

 

They were being controlled by Blood magic and demon's AFTER they perform the binding ritual. Not before. It wasn't the blight in their blood. Not Corypheus' fake calling. None of the Wardens at the temple had demons beside them (doesn't mean they weren't there but we don't see them). So again, no sign of being forced to do anything they didn't want to do or at least do anything they didn't believe to be necessary.

 

So, respectfully, if I read this right, they were there willingly and I agree.  That is the fundamental problem indeed.

[robertthebard]

In Origins they are presented as heroes (-> the typical Crusader Templar guys, you can see in games and movies). It starts with the battle of Ostagar, where Duncan and the other Wardens fight bravely against the darkspawn and die after Loghain's betrayal, and ends with the battle of Denerim and Alistairs speech, which ends with "For Ferelden, For the Grey Wardens" -> the army charges with shouting

The player is Warden and Hero of Ferelden and finally defeats the archdemon, the big bad guy. Alistair, his/her closest friend, the typical young lad and chick magnet, is a Warden.

And furthermore in Awakening you and your fellow Warden companions have to save Amaranthine + your castle is more or less the breakwater for the darkspawn horde of the disgusting brood mother (-> like the castle in NWN 2)

 

The ritual with the blood is meant to show, that a person, who wants to be a Warden, has to offer a personal sacrifice. Once a Warden, always a Warden.

 

 

Where are the signs, that Wardens are bad guys?

I let Amaranthine burn.  I was the Orlesian Warden, what did I care about a city full of thugs that wanted to assassinate me?

[robertthebard]

What is it? It's manipulation. Corypheus set the stage and let the Wardens do as they will. Heshowed them a door. That's all he could do. The Wardens are the one's who chose to go through it. You don't need to convince someone who is slave to your will to do something. They do it because they have no choice. If you have to convince them then they have a choice. Persuading someone to do something is not the same as controlling them.

 

Again, the control you describe just paints him as a bloodmage. It doesn't mean it has anything to do with the taint. I brought up Idunna before. She could do that. A Magister of ancient Tevinter she is not. Doesn't have anything to do with Corypheus being a darkspawn nor his jailors being Grey Wardens. A non-blighted blood mage could have performed the control you describe on their jailors, grey warden or no.

 

And I didn't say Corypheus' call was the same as the old gods call. I said it was similar. Or at least functions closely enough to the old gods call that he could mimic it. Mere conjecture, but I think his call is considerably weaker than that of the old gods. Other wise why use the Reds? Why not just use the Darkspawn the way the AD's do. Even accounting for the Darkspawn that died during the Blight, their numbers are still enormous. There are probably more of them then there are rouge templars and/or rebel mages. Even if you add in the wardens, I doubt you would match the Darkspawns numbers.

 

So manipulation isn't control?

[Scuttlebutt101]

They are presented in Origins to the player as heroes (-> the typical Crusader Templar guys, you can see in games and movies). It starts with the battle of Ostagar, where Duncan and the other Wardens fight bravely against the darkspawn and die after Loghain's betrayal, and ends with the battle of Denerim and Alistairs speech, which ends with "For Ferelden, For the Grey Wardens" -> the army charges with shouting)

The player is Warden and Hero of Ferelden and finally defeats the archdemon, the big bad guy. Alistair, his/her closest friend, the typical young lad and chick magnet, is a Warden.

And furthermore in Awakening you and your fellow Waren companions have to save Amaranthine + your castle is more or less the breakwater for the darkspawn horde of the disgusting brood mother (-> like the castle in NWN 2)

 

The ritual with the blood is meant to show, that a person, who wants to be a Warden, has to offer a personal sacrifice. Once a Warden, always a Warden.

 

 

Where are the signs, that Wardens are bad guys?

Wardens were always meant to be morally grey (hence the name maybe?). You get hints of this in some origins. Duncan tells Amell/Surana that Wardens will use blood magic if it helps them stop Blights, for instance, and then there's the fact that he might conscript the Warden against his/her will. He also makes it very clear that once they join, the life they had before is over and they might never be able to go back home or see their family again. When you get to Ostagar, Alistair tells you that Wardens can resort to some dark stuff if it means stopping the blight. Then there's the Joining - you have to drink darkspawn blood, it might kill you and recruits don't know anything about it until they go through with it. If you try to back out, you are killed to prevent the secret from coming out. This is all before the battle of Ostagar. I honestly don't see where you have gotten the impression that they were meant to be knights in shining armor. People revere them as heroes because 1) they don't know their darkest secrets, 2) whatever Wardens do, they do it to prevent the end of the world (except the cases like Sophia Dryden's coup).

 

About Amaranthine - you can choose to be a Hero and swoop in to save helpless civillians, or you can burn the city down to kill the darkspawn inside and stop the taint from spreading, since half the population is dead and the surviving half is likely corrupted. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Again, the control you describe just paints him as a bloodmage. It doesn't mean it has anything to do with the taint. I brought up Idunna before. She could do that. A Magister of ancient Tevinter she is not. Doesn't have anything to do with Corypheus being a darkspawn nor his jailors being Grey Wardens. A non-blighted blood mage could have performed the control you describe on their jailors, grey warden or no.

 

And I didn't say Corypheus' call was the same as the old gods call. I said it was similar. Or at least functions closely enough to the old gods call that he could mimic it. Mere conjecture, but I think his call is considerably weaker than that of the old gods. Other wise why use the Reds? Why not just use the Darkspawn the way the AD's do. Even accounting for the Darkspawn that died during the Blight, their numbers are still enormous. There are probably more of them then there are rouge templars and/or rebel mages. Even if you add in the wardens, I doubt you would match the Darkspawns numbers.

No it doesn't there is nothing ever said about Corypheus using blood magic to control those wardens, once again how could he use blood magic when he was unconscious, without using blood and targets not being near him? Larius specifically refers to Corypheus calling Janeka and she listening to him, grey wardens that were under his control also spoke about hearing voice in their heads smiliar to those of old gods,  First warden refers to Corypheus ability to affect grey wardens through taint, there was no single non-tainted person that was affected by Corypheus as far it goes only darkspawn , ghouls and grey wardens were affected by him.

 

Also it doesn't seem Corypheus could control Darkspawn as Archdemons do as he could control only part of the remnants after blight.

 

[Cute Nug]

Wardens were always meant to be morally grey (hence the name maybe?). You get hints of this in some Origins. He tells Tabris/Surana that Wardens will use blood magic if it helps them stop Blights, for instance, and then there's the fact that he might conscript the Warden against his/her will. He also makes it very clear that once they join, the life they had before is over and they might never be able to go back home or see their family again. When you get to Ostagar, Alistair tells you that Wardens can resort to some dark stuff if it means stopping the blight. Then there's the Joining - you have to drink darkspawn blood, it might kill you and recruits don't know anything about it until they go through with it. If you try to back out, you are killed to prevent the secret from coming out. This is all before the battle of Ostagar. I honestly don't see where you have gotten the impression that they were meant to be knights in shining armor. People revere them as heroes because 1) they don't know their darkest secrets, 2) whatever Wardens do, they do it to prevent the end of the world (except the cases like Sophia Dryden's coup).

 

About Amaranthine - you can choose to be Heroes and swoop in to save the helpless civillians, or you can burn the city down to kill the darkspawn inside and stop the taint from spreading, since half the population is dead and the surviving half is likely corrupted. 

 

I think all of you are right about what the Grey Wardens/Grey Spawn are.

 

Perhaps similar at least to how the Quizzy is never ever the Herald of Andraste but they also absolutely are the Herald of Andraste in different ways of belief, perspective, need, and knowledge even if they tell they truth of what happened.

 

Grey Wardens were never an order of brave knights and heroes except they absolutely were to many in Thedas and yet not . They have always been heroes and always grey to even bad based on each individual perspective, belief, need, and knowledge.

 

Perspective may change with knowledge of willing/unwilling wrongs done/exposed in DAI. For example, will they be blamed or praised for hiding that they had for centuries imprisoned at least one of the proto-darkspawn magisters (The Second Sin) who almost destroyed Thedas when he escaped.  

 

Belief has been rocked in DAI in many many ways including potentially belief in them and even the foundations of the predominant religion.

 

There is still a need to stop Thedas ending from expected future blights. Post DAI Grey Wardens aren't just the group needed to save Thedas but also a potential risk to the safety of Thedas. 

 

Knowledge of the Grey Wardens heroic and "grey" actions will potentially be less secret after DAI.

 

It's a shame DAI didn't have the resources to cover issues with the Grey Wardens more. The Grey Warden world also potentially blew up in DAI if too many events and secrets become known. They have a big part in the Dragon Age story and lore. It might be interesting to see what happens post DAI. Unfortunately there is the chance it might feel skipped in future games like the mage vs templar war since Bioware has so many story lines to cover.

 

I lean towards exile but I'm "grey" on this choice.

 

Avoid making them derpy Bioware but I like the complexity they created.

 

Grey indeed.

[DDJ]

I think all of you are right about what the Grey Wardens/Grey Spawn are.

 

Perhaps similar at least to how the Quizzy is never ever the Herald of Andraste but they also absolutely are the Herald of Andraste in different ways of belief, perspective, need, and knowledge even if they tell they truth of what happened.

 

Grey Wardens were never an order of brave knights and heroes except they absolutely were to many in Thedas and yet not . They have always been heroes and always grey to even bad based on each individual perspective, belief, need, and knowledge.

 

Perspective may change with knowledge of willing/unwilling wrongs done/exposed in DAI. For example, will they be blamed or praised for hiding that they had for centuries imprisoned at least one of the proto-darkspawn magisters (The Second Sin) who almost destroyed Thedas when he escaped.  

 

Belief has been rocked in DAI in many many ways including potentially belief in them and even the foundations of the predominant religion.

 

There is still a need to stop Thedas ending from expected future blights. Post DAI Grey Wardens aren't just the group needed to save Thedas but also a potential risk to the safety of Thedas. 

 

Knowledge of the Grey Wardens heroic and "grey" actions will potentially be less secret after DAI.

 

It's a shame DAI didn't have the resources to cover issues with the Grey Wardens more. The Grey Warden world also potentially blew up in DAI if too many events and secrets become known. They have a big part in the Dragon Age story and lore. It might be interesting to see what happens post DAI. Unfortunately there is the chance it might feel skipped in future games like the mage vs templar war since Bioware has so many story lines to cover.

 

I lean towards exile but I'm "grey" on this choice.

 

Avoid making them derpy Bioware but I like the complexity they created.

 

Grey indeed.

 

Extremely well put.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No it doesn't there is nothing ever said about Corypheus using blood magic to control those wardens, once again how could he use blood magic when he was unconscious, without using blood and targets not being near him? Larius specifically refers to Corypheus calling Janeka and she listening to him, grey wardens that were under his control also spoke about hearing voice in their heads smiliar to those of old gods,  First warden refers to Corypheus ability to affect grey wardens through taint, there was no single non-tainted person that was affected by Corypheus as far it goes only darkspawn , ghouls and grey wardens were affected by him.

 

Also it doesn't seem Corypheus could control Darkspawn as Archdemons do as he could control only part of the remnants after blight.

 

The Codex that explained why he was sealed away said that darkspawn attacked trying to free him. Though that raises the question of why he didn't act to protect the Venatori under Crassius Servis from the darkspawn.

[DDJ]

This occurred to me while I was working on something else.  In DAO the HoF is told that what is forced on him / her is for the greater good.  Now, I have just seen Jory murdered by Duncan - killed if you prefer.  Assuming for the moment that it is not prohibited by plot armor, what happens if I feel that killing murderers is for the greater good?  Let ;us suppose for a moment that the HoF after the joining was able to kill Duncan in revenge for Jory and is also forced to kill Alastair.  Now here is the real point.  Duncan claims he did it all for the greater good - obviously the greater good as he sees it.  I claim that I killed Duncan and Alastair for the greater good.  After all murderers cannot be permitted to run free.  I do not, as a green conscript, feel that the blight is real.  And, if I am playing as an elf, why the hell would I believe a shem anyway?  Why would I trust or even want to trust a shem?  So, if Duncan is implying that this is for the greater good, and we all get to choose for ourselves just what that greater good is, does that no indicate a situation where anarchy and chaos can run free?

 

Just another heretical thought from the Kingdom of Heretical thoughts.  We need DA4 soon.