1570 réponses à ce sujet

[ModernAcademic]

Things that urgently need to change concerning the GW Order:

 

1. The Warden-Commander of each region or nation should periodically report to the King/Queen about the Order's activities so as to minimize any distrust felt against them.
2. Each nation should have a specific territory that would serve as an official HQ for the GW protecting that nation. 
3. GW should be exempt of any taxation. They provide a service that's fundamental for the survival of people: protecting against darkspawn raids.
4. The crown would give a small monetary contribution to make sure the Order has enough to pay for food and other expenses. In return, their duty would be to patrol the roads and villages for darkspawn raids.
5. Specific legislation should be written to address how a Warden should be punished in the case he commited an offence to the law or a crime against a citizen. Some crimes could be resolved within the GW Order. Others would be judged by the crown.

 

All those measures would ensure there's some level of accountability for the Wardens' actions. Moreover, they would stop being estranged whenever they travelled during their recruitment efforts. 

The Order would become something official, with a clearly established role and a certain degree of authority. It would exist as part of society - even though a distant part - and minimize conflicts that could lead to them being exiled from any nation.

[DDJ]

Things that urgently need to change concerning the GW Order:

 

1. The Warden-Commander of each region or nation should periodically report to the King/Queen about the Order's activities so as to minimize any distrust felt against them.
2. Each nation should have a specific territory that would serve as an official HQ for the GW protecting that nation. 
3. GW should be exempt of any taxation. They provide a service that's fundamental for the survival of people: protecting against darkspawn raids.
4. The crown would give a small monetary contribution to make sure the Order has enough to pay for food and other expenses. In return, their duty would be to patrol the roads and villages for darkspawn raids.
5. Specific legislation should be written to address how a Warden should be punished in the case he commited an offence to the law or a crime against a citizen. Some crimes could be resolved within the GW Order. Others would be judged by the crown.

 

All those measures would ensure there's some level of accountability for the Wardens' actions. Moreover, they would stop being estranged whenever they travelled during their recruitment efforts. 

The Order would become something official, with a clearly established role and a certain degree of authority. It would exist as part of society - even though a distant part - and minimize conflicts that could lead to them being exiled from any nation.

 

This is very well put.  I guess my concern is that it goes against what the GW themselves have established.  They do not want to be held accountable when doing what they wish is to their minds anyway a necessity.  Still this is reasonable.

[diaspora2k5]

Things that urgently need to change concerning the GW Order:

 

1. The Warden-Commander of each region or nation should periodically report to the King/Queen about the Order's activities so as to minimize any distrust felt against them.
2. Each nation should have a specific territory that would serve as an official HQ for the GW protecting that nation. 
3. GW should be exempt of any taxation. They provide a service that's fundamental for the survival of people: protecting against darkspawn raids.
4. The crown would give a small monetary contribution to make sure the Order has enough to pay for food and other expenses. In return, their duty would be to patrol the roads and villages for darkspawn raids.
5. Specific legislation should be written to address how a Warden should be punished in the case he commited an offence to the law or a crime against a citizen. Some crimes could be resolved within the GW Order. Others would be judged by the crown.

1. We don't know if they don't already do this to a limited extent.
2. They set up a main base via Vigil's Keep, the First Warden was interested and wanted it to become an established norm- having a main base of operations.
3. They don't pay taxes as per Levi Dryden.
4. They take payments from the state as per Levi. They also do regular excursions into Darkspawn territory.
5. We don't know either way if a system like this exists.

[Cute Nug]

Things that urgently need to change concerning the GW Order:

 

1. The Warden-Commander of each region or nation should periodically report to the King/Queen about the Order's activities so as to minimize any distrust felt against them.
2. Each nation should have a specific territory that would serve as an official HQ for the GW protecting that nation. 
3. GW should be exempt of any taxation. They provide a service that's fundamental for the survival of people: protecting against darkspawn raids.
4. The crown would give a small monetary contribution to make sure the Order has enough to pay for food and other expenses. In return, their duty would be to patrol the roads and villages for darkspawn raids.
5. Specific legislation should be written to address how a Warden should be punished in the case he commited an offence to the law or a crime against a citizen. Some crimes could be resolved within the GW Order. Others would be judged by the crown.

 

All those measures would ensure there's some level of accountability for the Wardens' actions. Moreover, they would stop being estranged whenever they travelled during their recruitment efforts. 

The Order would become something official, with a clearly established role and a certain degree of authority. It would exist as part of society - even though a distant part - and minimize conflicts that could lead to them being exiled from any nation.

 

I like it.

 

Add:

6. Official pardon by head of state (at least Orlais ruler) for GW involvement in terrorist attack murdering southern Divine with the peace conclave, secretly hiding dangerous proto-darkspawn magister for centuries, aiding proto-darkspawn magister to almost destroy Thedas, and secretly starting to raise a demon army in Orlais. If any of this info becomes common knowledge their public image would be crap and an official pardon would make sense.

 

7. Agree to non-GW oversight due to the unknown risk of 6 other unaccounted for proto-darkspawn magisters that may or may not be able to "control" GW's to do their bidding. Each nation could appoint whatever level of independent oversight they feel appropriate.

 

8. Before raising any future demon armies they must get written approval from the First Warden in Weisshaupt, the ruler of the nation where said demon army is being raised, and The Nug King.

[ModernAcademic]

8 might be a tad... impossible, since the Chantry forbids blood magic, summoning demons and other fun stuff. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

8. Before raising any future demon armies they must get written approval from the First Warden in Weisshaupt, the ruler of the nation where said demon army is being raised, and The Nug King.

This is a setting where communicating with distant nations is a bit hit or miss. Getting permission from Weisshaupt for things might be tricky.

[VorexRyder]

Sorry that you think that.  Perhaps it is only the fact that the lack of a moral center by the Wardens conflicts with my own lack of acceptance of murder, massacres and atrocities all of which the Wardens have been involved in during the games.  And to the point of super soldier, he actually made the HoF into a ghoul.  Any skills or abilities in the game already belonged to me.  All he did was seize someone whose luck had gone sour and insured that any kind of a normal life was impossible.  Instead, like the warrior Vikings, you get to dedicate your life to war and death.  They believed that being killed in battle was a sure ticket to Valhalla if it was a heroic death.  Considering the fact that they burned towns, murdered innocents, enslaved people, gleefully presided over massacres and ad infinitum hardly qualifies the Vikings as either super soldiers or particularly noble.  The same can be said of the Wardens.  The only difference is that the Vikings did not have a get out of jail free card.  When they were caught, they were killed out of hand.  As to HoF, Duncan gave me no skills and no knowledge of import.  He made the HoF into a ghoul for expediency's sake because he needed troops.  Considering the fact that two thirds of his choices ended up dead I am rather glad that he did not bequeath the HoF with his judgement.  

 

I respect your loyalty to the Wardens, but it does not negate the less than admirable qualities about them.  They do claim to have stopped five blights which is a good thing.  i cannot and will not accept an above the law group who never has any consequence to pay for their actions.

Being plagued by nightmares every night until they die alone in the Deep Roads is consequence enough. You're whining that Duncan ruined the HoF's life in order to prevent Ferelden, Orzammar, and parts of Orlais from being utterly annihilated by the Darkspawn.

 

The Calling literally interferes with the abilities of Wardens to make rational decisions.

 

You don't have morals, what you have is inability to see the consequences of not doing an action. You criticize Duncan for what he did, if he hadn't Ferelden and Orzammar would be lost.

[robertthebard]

No, we can't. That proves that Morrigan is right about her part of the ritual: that there is a blood magic conduit by which we can insert the soul of an OG into another being. It contradicts what the GWs tell us: that two souls cannot co-exist in one body. This is not just a matter of hand-waving it away as it being the soul of a child - that doesn't make sense, as it's a second one, and it clearly develops totally independently from the OG. 

 

What you're misunderstanding here that just because we see the consequence doesn't mean we prove the explanation. This is why phlogiston chemistry - a theory that made true predictions - is no longer an acceptable theory. 

Then if she's right, then the rest of it must also be right, otherwise how could what she proposes work?  That it does work, we know, for a fact.  There are plenty of threads and posts discussing how minimal Kieran really was since the DR wasn't as popular as maybe some would have liked.  There are a lot of things we don't know about the DR, however, that could account for it actually working, since we do have examples of two "souls" inhabiting one body:  Anders and Wynne.

[DDJ]

This is a setting where communicating with distant nations is a bit hit or miss. Getting permission from Weisshaupt for things might be tricky.

 

As long as they get permission from the Nug king it should be fine.

[DDJ]

Being plagued by nightmares every night until they die alone in the Deep Roads is consequence enough. You're whining that Duncan ruined the HoF's life in order to prevent Ferelden, Orzammar, and parts of Orlais from being utterly annihilated by the Darkspawn.

 

The Calling literally interferes with the abilities of Wardens to make rational decisions.

 

You don't have morals, what you have is inability to see the consequences of not doing an action. You criticize Duncan for what he did, if he hadn't Ferelden and Orzammar would be lost.

 

Because, of course, Duncan was all seeing and all knowing.  Well, I respect your opinion.

[In Exile]

This occurred to me while I was working on something else.  In DAO the HoF is told that what is forced on him / her is for the greater good.  Now, I have just seen Jory murdered by Duncan - killed if you prefer.  Assuming for the moment that it is not prohibited by plot armor, what happens if I feel that killing murderers is for the greater good?  Let ;us suppose for a moment that the HoF after the joining was able to kill Duncan in revenge for Jory and is also forced to kill Alastair.  Now here is the real point.  Duncan claims he did it all for the greater good - obviously the greater good as he sees it.  I claim that I killed Duncan and Alastair for the greater good.  After all murderers cannot be permitted to run free.  I do not, as a green conscript, feel that the blight is real.  And, if I am playing as an elf, why the hell would I believe a shem anyway?  Why would I trust or even want to trust a shem?  So, if Duncan is implying that this is for the greater good, and we all get to choose for ourselves just what that greater good is, does that no indicate a situation where anarchy and chaos can run free?

 

Just another heretical thought from the Kingdom of Heretical thoughts.  We need DA4 soon.

 

But Jory is an absurd moment. The Grey Wardens don't have complicated recruitment standards - just onerous ones. You need people who 1) are really good at fighting, because they're going to see some absolutely brutal battles, in horrid conditions (e.g. the deep roads, or massed darkspawn raids, or even a blight) and 2) who are mentally resilient, because they'll see and experience horrors that would break most people. Jory very obviously fails at #2. There's a reason that a lot of organizations do pscyh evals, and Jory obviously would fail one. 

[In Exile]

Then if she's right, then the rest of it must also be right, otherwise how could what she proposes work?  That it does work, we know, for a fact.  There are plenty of threads and posts discussing how minimal Kieran really was since the DR wasn't as popular as maybe some would have liked.  There are a lot of things we don't know about the DR, however, that could account for it actually working, since we do have examples of two "souls" inhabiting one body:  Anders and Wynne.

 

I'm going to go back to my phlogiston example. From wikipedia:

 

The phlogiston theory is an obsolete scientific theory that postulated that a fire-like element called phlogiston is contained within combustible bodies and released during combustion. The name comes from the Ancient Greek φλογιστόν phlogistón (burning up), from φλόξ phlóx (flame). It was first stated in 1667 by Johann Joachim Becher. The theory attempted to explain burning processes such as combustion and rusting, which are now collectively known as oxidation.

 

The success of phonologist theory in explaining certain phenomena does not 1) mean that it was succesful in explaining others or 2) that its true predictions in one context meant it made true predictions in other contexts. 

 

Morrigan is right that the DR works. That does not prove that absent the DR, souls are destroyed. 

[DDJ]

But Jory is an absurd moment. The Grey Wardens don't have complicated recruitment standards - just onerous ones. You need people who 1) are really good at fighting, because they're going to see some absolutely brutal battles, in horrid conditions (e.g. the deep roads, or massed darkspawn raids, or even a blight) and 2) who are mentally resilient, because they'll see and experience horrors that would break most people. Jory very obviously fails at #2. There's a reason that a lot of organizations do pscyh evals, and Jory obviously would fail one. 

 

I would agree, he is a poor example and should never have been recruited.  But set that aside for one moment and consider the real heretical question as I framed it.  If Jory was recruited by Duncan's judgement and he is so flawed, than it stands to reason that Duncan's decision was poor.  Flawed if you will.  Why then would I believe that he could or should decide anything for the greater good?  I am not arguing, only explaining the context.  You are absolutely right in your points, but if you are an unwilling conscript and do not trust humans, this is hardly going to help.

[ModernAcademic]

[Completely Unrelated] Did you guys know that via modding you can impregnate Morrigan with your Female Warden?

[robertthebard]

I'm going to go back to my phlogiston example. From wikipedia:

 

The phlogiston theory is an obsolete scientific theory that postulated that a fire-like element called phlogiston is contained within combustible bodies and released during combustion. The name comes from the Ancient Greek φλογιστόν phlogistón (burning up), from φλόξ phlóx (flame). It was first stated in 1667 by Johann Joachim Becher. The theory attempted to explain burning processes such as combustion and rusting, which are now collectively known as oxidation.

 

The success of phonologist theory in explaining certain phenomena does not 1) mean that it was succesful in explaining others or 2) that its true predictions in one context meant it made true predictions in other contexts. 

 

Morrigan is right that the DR works. That does not prove that absent the DR, souls are destroyed. 

So why do the Blights end, if the ADs aren't dead?  Killing the AD ends the Blights, by definition, that's killing the OG.  This is why Morrigan wants the DR, to preserve the OG's soul.  Despite all the theories we can pull off wikis, none of them will explain spontaneously spawning walls of fire because someone willed it.  The problem with trying to apply real world science to a fantasy setting is magic.  The DR is magic, it can bend the rules, and totally ignore the rules that we recognize sitting at our computers typing this discussion.  As much as I hate to fall back to this, but "a wizard did it" is really accurate as far as the DR goes, and all the results it puts out.  However, the fact that there have been 5 Blights, and they have all ended with the death of the AD suggests that the OG that was corrupted is dead.  It was, after all, the driving force behind the Blights in the first place, and w/out it, they fall apart.

 

Now, if you can show me that the 1st Blight is still running, I'll have to agree with your science.  However, the game lore indicates that there have, at the end of Inquisition, been 5 Blights, each with a different OG being corrupted.  Do you have something that contradicts this, besides some more scientific theories from a wiki?  We need some lore that shows that all the OGs are alive and well, despite what Morrigan thinks when she proposes the DR.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Because, of course, Duncan was all seeing and all knowing.  Well, I respect your opinion.

That's not what he* said. He didn't argue nothing Duncan did was stupid, but that one of his decisions (which depending on what Origin you picked and how you reacted to basically being press-ganged could be a very morally questionable one indeed) prevented Ferelden from getting destroyed. He further said that you're not so much making moral decisions as refusing to see consequences, which I'm not sure he's wrong about. Are you weighing consequences and perceiving them lighter than principles, or just refusing to see them at all? I'm not sure the former is praiseworthy, but I suppose I can respect it. The latter, not so much.

 

* I'm making an assumption, feel free to correct if needed.

[DDJ]

So why do the Blights end, if the ADs aren't dead?  Killing the AD ends the Blights, by definition, that's killing the OG.  This is why Morrigan wants the DR, to preserve the OG's soul.  Despite all the theories we can pull off wikis, none of them will explain spontaneously spawning walls of fire because someone willed it.  The problem with trying to apply real world science to a fantasy setting is magic.  The DR is magic, it can bend the rules, and totally ignore the rules that we recognize sitting at our computers typing this discussion.  As much as I hate to fall back to this, but "a wizard did it" is really accurate as far as the DR goes, and all the results it puts out.  However, the fact that there have been 5 Blights, and they have all ended with the death of the AD suggests that the OG that was corrupted is dead.  It was, after all, the driving force behind the Blights in the first place, and w/out it, they fall apart.

 

Now, if you can show me that the 1st Blight is still running, I'll have to agree with your science.  However, the game lore indicates that there have, at the end of Inquisition, been 5 Blights, each with a different OG being corrupted.  Do you have something that contradicts this, besides some more scientific theories from a wiki?  We need some lore that shows that all the OGs are alive and well, despite what Morrigan thinks when she proposes the DR.

 

I would suggest that both of you are right frankly.  Bioware does not abandon something very easily.  Consider the evil warden playthrough where you kill Leliana and Wynne at the Temple of Sacred Ashes after you contaminate it.  Both of them are killed out of hand.  Then Wynne arises for Dragon Age Awakening and dies for good one assumes in one of the books after she is reunited with her son.  Leliana is back in DA2 and if you play your cards right says she was revived by a miracle.  That is why her appearance in DA2 came as such a surprise to some.  Even if your Warden dies in DAO, back they come in Awakening.  So, I think by the way the game is structured the lore is there though not as you had thought.  I understand the science point as well.  Because Morrigan believes it is so, key word is believe, does not necessarily make it so.  Heck, I don't really know if C is dead this time.  He was sent back to the fade, but could he push back through the veil?  I do not know, but the only one of the characters I truly believe is dead is Wynne, arguably one of the least favorite characters, but the possibility remains that she could come back just because they need her and it could be an interesting plot.  Will I get their arm back?  Maybe.  So, again, I believe you are both right although I would suggest that perhaps the lore is very subtly there.  Still, major good points from both of you.  What we really need is for them to hurry up DA4 not to mention many other DA games.  I am not a patient waiter.

[DDJ]

That's not what he* said. He didn't argue nothing Duncan did was stupid, but that one of his decisions (which depending on what Origin you picked and how you reacted to basically being press-ganged could be a very morally questionable one indeed) prevented Ferelden from getting destroyed. He further said that you're not so much making moral decisions as refusing to see consequences, which I'm not sure he's wrong about. Are you weighing consequences and perceiving them lighter than principles, or just refusing to see them at all? I'm not sure the former is praiseworthy, but I suppose I can respect it. The latter, not so much.

 

* I'm making an assumption, feel free to correct if needed.

 

You are right.  What I am saying is that Duncan lucked into it.  He had no way of knowing that press ganging the HoF would save the country.  Considering his less than stellar decisions, he simply got lucky.  There is some support for this within the game itself as Alastair, for his own reasons, chooses not to reveal what will happen to the HoF until all of the armies are gathered.  HoF does the work he just slugs along.  So when the joining occurs there is a moral decision from the HoF's viewpoint.  That may change as the game progresses, but the characters have no way of knowing what lies ahead unless, as noted, Duncan is all seeing and knowing which of course he is not.  We as players have the advantage of knowing the outcome.  The characters in the story do not.  So, while Jory was not a good choice admittedly for the Wardens, do recall that he had a wife and child.  Also recall that depending on the scenario you were press ganged into an organization, and if you are an elf you have absolutely no reason to trust humans.  Being told by Alastair that Duncan poisoned you and knowing that you will become a ghoul after you do his work for him may well be necessary, although I scarcely credit Alastair with as much intelligence as Duncan.  So, being press ganged into the Wardens and not wanting to join them to begin with, learning that the big reward for it is to spend your life in battle before you go mad and then turn into a ghoul when no one knew that the HoF would save the country just makes the drink or die joining all the sweeter for the conscript.  Sorry, I respect all opinions, but the characters operate in real time.   .  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You are right.  What I am saying is that Duncan lucked into it.  He had no way of knowing that press ganging the HoF would save the country.  Considering his less than stellar decisions, he simply got lucky.  There is some support for this within the game itself as Alastair, for his own reasons, chooses not to reveal what will happen to the HoF until all of the armies are gathered.  HoF does the work he just slugs along.  So when the joining occurs there is a moral decision from the HoF's viewpoint.  That may change as the game progresses, but the characters have no way of knowing what lies ahead unless, as noted, Duncan is all seeing and knowing which of course he is not.  We as players have the advantage of knowing the outcome.  The characters in the story do not.  So, while Jory was not a good choice admittedly for the Wardens, do recall that he had a wife and child.  Also recall that depending on the scenario you were press ganged into an organization, and if you are an elf you have absolutely no reason to trust humans.  Being told by Alastair that Duncan poisoned you and knowing that you will become a ghoul after you do his work for him may well be necessary, although I scarcely credit Alastair with as much intelligence as Duncan.  So, being press ganged into the Wardens and not wanting to join them to begin with, learning that the big reward for it is to spend your life in battle before you go mad and then turn into a ghoul when no one knew that the HoF would save the country just makes the drink or die joining all the sweeter for the conscript.  Sorry, I respect all opinions, but the characters operate in real time.   .  

Did Duncan know that the HoF would save the country? No. He did however have reason to believe that having one more competent fighter who can handle the Taint without it being a probable death sentence, and another person who can kill the Archdemon was a good step in that direction. Because, you know, it is. If you don't know what lies ahead the wisest thing to do is to have a whole bunch of competent fighters with those qualifications. He was arguably being lax on that score, since his command apparently numbered less than a hundred, but what you're criticizing him for is an attempt to correct that mistake.

 

As for his less than rewarding gamble as far as Jory, the man won a tournament. He had the raw skill to be useful. Raw skill isn't the only thing needed, but there's only so much Duncan can do to test for the courage to stand up to darkspawn and the Taint. For that matter we saw that he wasn't entirely without courage from his mostly casual reaction to Morrigan and Flemeth.

[Bardox9]

I doubt Jory would have survived the joining regardless. Too much of a cowardly lion type. If the taint didn't kill him, the vision of the AD would have given him a heart attack. It's really a crap-shoot taking in the taint like that anyway. With any luck Avernus' research (assuming you didn't kill him) would have lead to fewer deaths via joining.

[GoldenGail3]

I like it.
 
Add:
6. Official pardon by head of state (at least Orlais ruler) for GW involvement in terrorist attack murdering southern Divine with the peace conclave, secretly hiding dangerous proto-darkspawn magister for centuries, aiding proto-darkspawn magister to almost destroy Thedas, and secretly starting to raise a demon army in Orlais. If any of this info becomes common knowledge their public image would be crap and an official pardon would make sense.
 
7. Agree to non-GW oversight due to the unknown risk of 6 other unaccounted for proto-darkspawn magisters that may or may not be able to "control" GW's to do their bidding. Each nation could appoint whatever level of independent oversight they feel appropriate.
 
8. Before raising any future demon armies they must get written approval from the First Warden in Weisshaupt, the ruler of the nation where said demon army is being raised, and The Nug King.

All of these ;

They were brainwashed. By Cory. A guy that can take control of Grey Wardens like Darkspawn; but unlike them he can take control of them needless to say of soul or not. So yeah; it's really stupid to hate them for being brainwashed... But it's stupid the GW didn't just trap him In a holding cell above ground; no where near any GW or blighted thing so that he can't manplative them so that none of this plot could've occured as Cory had no power over anyone and Hawke would'nt have been able to do a rat arse about it or even care, lol. GW were stupid in that, I must say. They could've found other means of killing him... Somehow...

[TheKomandorShepard]

All of these ;

They were brainwashed. By Cory. A guy that can take control of Grey Wardens like Darkspawn; but unlike them he can take control of them needless to say of soul or not. So yeah; it's really stupid to hate them for being brainwashed... But it's stupid the GW didn't just trap him In a holding cell above ground; no where near any GW or blighted thing so that he can't manplative them so that none of this plot could've occured as Cory had no power over anyone and Hawke would'nt have been able to do a rat arse about it or even care, lol. GW were stupid in that, I must say. They could've found other means of killing him... Somehow...

False , most grey wardens in Inquisition weren't by any mean brainwashed or controled by Corypheus just shown went with one of most idiotic and dangerous plans in entire series.

 

 

That's not what he* said. He didn't argue nothing Duncan did was stupid, but that one of his decisions (which depending on what Origin you picked and how you reacted to basically being press-ganged could be a very morally questionable one indeed) prevented Ferelden from getting destroyed. He further said that you're not so much making moral decisions as refusing to see consequences, which I'm not sure he's wrong about. Are you weighing consequences and perceiving them lighter than principles, or just refusing to see them at all? I'm not sure the former is praiseworthy, but I suppose I can respect it. The latter, not so much.

 

* I'm making an assumption, feel free to correct if needed.

 

To be honest if not Duncan stupidity to play Yes-man to one of biggest idiots in Ferelden, Alistair and HoF wouldn't end as last wardens in Ferelden and good chance they wouldn't be framed.

 

Realistically speaking i find conscription in orgainsation like wardens counterproductive, why because wardens require sacrifice if person isn't ready to die what is point having such person as warden anyway , another thing is that grey wardens have a lot of secrets and giving them to people that hate you isn't very good idea. 

[DDJ]

Did Duncan know that the HoF would save the country? No. He did however have reason to believe that having one more competent fighter who can handle the Taint without it being a probable death sentence, and another person who can kill the Archdemon was a good step in that direction. Because, you know, it is. If you don't know what lies ahead the wisest thing to do is to have a whole bunch of competent fighters with those qualifications. He was arguably being lax on that score, since his command apparently numbered less than a hundred, but what you're criticizing him for is an attempt to correct that mistake.

 

As for his less than rewarding gamble as far as Jory, the man won a tournament. He had the raw skill to be useful. Raw skill isn't the only thing needed, but there's only so much Duncan can do to test for the courage to stand up to darkspawn and the Taint. For that matter we saw that he wasn't entirely without courage from his mostly casual reaction to Morrigan and Flemeth.

 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that.  Looking over the facts of the series and the number of times the Wardens have gone far beyond being "Grey" is a clear indication of the fanaticism they embody.  Charging an oncoming horde rather than forming a shield wall is foolish.  And, if you carefully examine the battlefield, there was no wall of any kind to fight behind despite the fact that with the numbers the spawn had there it would have been a prudent move.  They had to go through Ostagar from what I saw.  I cannot speak to the dwarf origins having only vague recollections of them,  In the others, with the possible exception of the Dalish one who distrust and dislike humans in any event it is a matter of convenience for him.  In my view he emerges as a brave man certainly.  He also exhibits a smug self-righteousness which I should imagine all people who see the Wardens as heroes will deny.  He was intelligent, not summoning a demon army to bolster the ranks as Sophia Dryden and Clarel did.  Rather he press ganged people, one of whom died (Gareth) and recruited one (Jory) who certainly had prowess in addition to his young family. If you play as a conscript - note that Bioware ignores that detail in the later stages of the game - which I always have done since the first play through then the reaction of what was forced upon you is natural.  It may well be natural if you go through with it willingly.  I criticize him not as you seem to think for trying to bolster his ranks but for the series of poor decisions he made that could have saved the Wardens.  Of course, plot armor required that they not be saved, but once again Duncan does not know about plot armor.  Nor does he have the advantage of multiple play throughs of the game.  Nor does Loghain exhibit any particular leadership here other than the flanking attack, which is a sound strategy but could have been done while the spawn were at the non existent wall that should have been there.  I criticize him for the fact that he believes that HoF really wants to devote their life to war and death.  If you listen carefully to his / her battlecries during the fights one of them is "there is no glory in bloodshed."  The facts point to a less than stellar commander.  Was he desperate?  Certainly.  However press ganging people into an organization who don't like or trust you, even hate you, is hardly a stellar decision particularly if they survive the joining and you are going to share your dark secrets with them.  You do not build loyalty, and with the cheerful news that "oh, by the way, we turned you into a ghoul" or if you are a female, "by the way you have the potential to be remade into a brood mother so you can create a whole new herd of spawn for us to fight" does not guarantee loyalty.  Given the setting (time and place) it guarantees revenge.  If the HoF survives and romances either Leliana or Morrigan Bioware clearly states that they are off seeking a cure.  At the end of Awakening the HoF "moves on" away from the Wardens.  In the end Duncan does not emerge as a stellar commander although now that I think on it neither does Loghain.  Still I do respect your opinion.  

[DDJ]

False , most grey wardens in Inquisition weren't by any mean brainwashed or controled by Corypheus just shown went with one of most idiotic and dangerous plans in entire series.

 

 

 

To be honest if not Duncan stupidity to play Yes-man to one of biggest idiots in Ferelden, Alistair and HoF wouldn't end as last wardens in Ferelden and good chance they wouldn't be framed.

 

Realistically speaking i find conscription in orgainsation like wardens counterproductive, why because wardens require sacrifice if person isn't ready to die what is point having such person as warden anyway , another thing is that grey wardens have a lot of secrets and giving them to people that hate you isn't very good idea. 

 

I totally agree.  What it does guarantee, once the truth comes out, is that you will likely have an angry warrior / mage who feels betrayed and will want his pound of flesh from those he feels betrayed him / her.  This has serious potential to create more enemies who will be far more dangerous to the Wardens than the darkspawn ever could be as they could destroy them from within.   

[Mistic]

As for his less than rewarding gamble as far as Jory, the man won a tournament. He had the raw skill to be useful. Raw skill isn't the only thing needed, but there's only so much Duncan can do to test for the courage to stand up to darkspawn and the Taint. For that matter we saw that he wasn't entirely without courage from his mostly casual reaction to Morrigan and Flemeth.

 

True enough. He was also an experienced knight, had something to fight for (his family can be an obstacle, but can also be a motivator to fight for their safety) and at the beginning he was actually thrilled about becoming a Warden. Not unlike Ser Gilmore in the Human Noble Origin.

 

In comparison, Daveth seemed a worse candidate. A petty thief who only joined because the authorities wanted to hang him. Yet the more the quest advanced, the better he seemed as a possible Warden, and he underwent the ritual willingly and bravely. All in all, it looked like a warning for the player who plays the game for the first time: initial impressions are deceptive, you won't know what a person is capable of until the right time comes. Now, with our hindsight, Jory looks like the obviously bad candidate, but when we meet him for the first time? Not so much.

 

Also, I think that in the issue about Warden recruitment, we should take the legality aspect into account. Duncan can conscript anybody he wants as the law dictates, and the Right of Conscription can be invoked in every origin. That means that the PC is perfectly aware that once he or she is recruited, it's over. There is no turning back to their old lives. At best, they could run away and live their lives in secret (which fits Anders since he've always been a runaway, but the origins in DA:O paint a different picture for the PC, who at least has a background and people who care for them). Every Thedosian society, except the Qunari, accepts that legality. It's like taxes. And death.