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[Mistic]

So what we know so far:

1. Clarel and the Orlesian Wardens were hearing the Calling.
2. Clarel and the Orlesian Wardens stopped communicating with Weisshaupt
3. Weisshaupt sent untainted Warden recruits to Orlais- former Templars to investigate the disappearances of Orlesian Wardens.
4. Vigil's Keep sent a letter requesting resources to deal with Sylvans so the Ferelden Warden Commander was still active (whomever they may be) and still talking to Weisshaupt even though Clarel had vanished.

 

First time I've heard of points 3 and 4. Where did they appear? Damn me if I missed a Codex entry as important as that in my playthrough.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

First time I've heard of points 3 and 4. Where did they appear? Damn me if I missed a Codex entry as important as that in my playthrough.

3 was presumably covered in The Last Flight; I haven't actually read it but as far as I know it's the only work that any part of is set in Weisshaupt.

 

I don't think I remember 4, but I assume it was a War Table mission.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The dwarf in the DC Origin... acquiesced. (Eventually.) And Rylock... well, as far as I know she's the only case we've seen of someone trying to actually kill a Warden over this, even if grudgingly acquiescing is not entirely uncommon. Heck, I got the impression that what Bryce Cousland would have done if Duncan had Conscripted the HN was more political consequences than trying actually prevent him by means of murder to the face. (Though I don't remember what I based that idea on and so I suppose I could be entirely making that up.)

 

 

 

I suppose I'll have to grant you Jory (though as a point in his favor he's mostly calm dealing with Flemeth, who is pretty scary herself, and only looks a bit disquieted when Daveth keeps antagonizing a woman that might actually be a scary dangerous witch) but if the only points against the HoF are that they're selfish and self-centered this is a bad enough situation that that's not enough to disqualify them. Jory's cowardice and foolishness might make him a net loss, but the Warden being selfish isn't as much of a problem.

 

Dwarf wasn't fine with it clearly that Duncan managed to recruit warden is another matter (Rylock wasn't able to stop you from doing as well), but unlike Rylock didn't follow the warden to kill him because, well they left Orzammar and matter wasn't personal but for sure matter didn't leave wardens his favorite organisation. Trying to kill criminal warden is one thing but person (pretty much authorities) holding grudge toward grey wardens is another.In scenario HN wouldn't want join them and Duncan tried to conscript him it would have end that way because i doubt that Bryce would be fine with it. 

 

Grey wardens pretty much exist to die fighting darkspawn and archdemon, selfish and self-absorbed person would have no reason to give their life and this is pretty much what The warden may say and do in the end , in fact such warden can speak about just escaping as soon s/he exists flemeth hut (of course narrative forces you to end blight as it would mean 2 completely different stories) but realistically speaking most of selfish and self-absorbed people would just escape either after Ostagar or when they learned killing archdemon is lethal.

[diaspora2k5]

3 was presumably covered in The Last Flight; I haven't actually read it but as far as I know it's the only work that any part of is set in Weisshaupt.

 

I don't think I remember 4, but I assume it was a War Table mission.

Last Flight chapter 9. Vigil's Keep's new Warden Commander sent them a letter when Clarel had already disappeared.

[DDJ]

Weisshaupt is geographically closer to Skyhold than Minrathous...

 

I agree.  My point is that there are closer Warden enclaves to contact though why they did not is beyond me.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I agree.  My point is that there are closer Warden enclaves to contact though why they did not is beyond me.

That is a bit of a plot hole. If I had to guess, I'd say that they tried and the Venatori intercepted their letters. Again: we know they do that when they have to. Your guess would probably be that Clarel is just dense, which admittedly is entirely possible. Though it'd be nice if we didn't have to guess, wouldn't it?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dwarf wasn't fine with it clearly that Duncan managed to recruit warden is another matter (Rylock wasn't able to stop you from doing as well), but unlike Rylock didn't follow the warden to kill him because, well they left Orzammar and matter wasn't personal but for sure matter didn't leave wardens his favorite organisation. Trying to kill criminal warden is one thing but person (pretty much authorities) holding grudge toward grey wardens is another.In scenario HN wouldn't want join them and Duncan tried to conscript him it would have end that way because i doubt that Bryce would be fine with it. 

The dwarf in question was the Proving Master, and is able to speak with you mostly civilly when you meet him during the Orzammar questline. He didn't like the idea that you'd gotten away with your "crimes" but elected to accept that you had and let it lie. This really does seem to be the norm, probably partially because the Wardens know better than to be truly careless. For example, Duncan does back down when Bryce makes clear that he won't, only re-raising the issue when things are long past the point where Bryce can do anything but put up with what Duncan plans for the HN.

 

 

Grey wardens pretty much exist to die fighting darkspawn and archdemon, selfish and self-absorbed person would have no reason to give their life and this is pretty much what The warden may say and do in the end , in fact such warden can speak about just escaping as soon s/he exists flemeth hut (of course narrative forces you to end blight as it would mean 2 completely different stories) but realistically speaking most of selfish and self-absorbed people would just escape either after Ostagar or when they learned killing archdemon is lethal.

Good point. In Duncan's defense deserting would have been harder if the army and Wardens hadn't been destroyed, but even that's not a guarantee.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The dwarf in question was the Proving Master, and is able to speak with you mostly civilly when you meet him during the Orzammar questline. He didn't like the idea that you'd gotten away with your "crimes" but elected to accept that you had and let it lie. This really does seem to be the norm, probably partially because the Wardens know better than to be truly careless. For example, Duncan does back down when Bryce makes clear that he won't, only re-raising the issue when things are long past the point where Bryce can do anything but put up with what Duncan plans for the HN.

Well i wouldn't call it civilly as lets say he ain't happy to see you again nor he is with Duncan decision. As for wardens not being carless i would argue, both Duncan and Clarel showed terrible decision making especially letter , same can be also said about Genevieve that recruited Duncan out of spite.Then we have that Duncan recruits person that murdered Arl's of Denerim son , so while Duncan might have known to not mess with Couslands he still did something that would anger powerful noble.  

[DDJ]

That is a bit of a plot hole. If I had to guess, I'd say that they tried and the Venatori intercepted their letters. Again: we know they do that when they have to. Your guess would probably be that Clarel is just dense, which admittedly is entirely possible. Though it'd be nice if we didn't have to guess, wouldn't it?

 

Possibly it is one of the "off stage" things that happens, but it is very likely that it is a plot hole.  

[DDJ]

The dwarf in question was the Proving Master, and is able to speak with you mostly civilly when you meet him during the Orzammar questline. He didn't like the idea that you'd gotten away with your "crimes" but elected to accept that you had and let it lie. This really does seem to be the norm, probably partially because the Wardens know better than to be truly careless. For example, Duncan does back down when Bryce makes clear that he won't, only re-raising the issue when things are long past the point where Bryce can do anything but put up with what Duncan plans for the HN.

 

 

Good point. In Duncan's defense deserting would have been harder if the army and Wardens hadn't been destroyed, but even that's not a guarantee.

 

Since it was only Duncan and HoF on the road, they could also have deserted pre-Ostagar.  

[DDJ]

My,my. Some people have a remarkably short memory.

 

The Warden mages were controlled by blood magic, as Livius Erimond demonstrated to the Inquisitor in the Tevinter ritual tower.

 

Hands up; hand down.

 

And anyone who disagreed with Clarel was expelled or threatened by their colleagues, just like Loghain was. And why?

Because all the Wardens thought they were ABOUT TO DIE.

 

The false Calling, emitted by the Nightmare demon, remember? It's like feeling excrutiating pain everyday because all of a sudden, you have terminal cancer. You don't think rationally, you just DO whatever you have to do before you die.

 

 

So it was either to follow her lead and build a demon army with the purpose of killing the last 2 Old Gods or every Warden thought he/she would be dead in a matter of days, with no one to stop a future Blight.

 

I would offer that both of you raise good point.  Most of the Wardens were not controlled, but they were heavily influenced.  However, even if the calling had been real, it would not have been the end of the Wardens.  Recall that in the first book alluded to in DAO Duncan was brought in from another country.  So even if all the Wardens in Orlais and Ferelden died, more would have come from elsewhere.  The order would not have been destroyed.

 

Now as I follow this discussion, Wardens exist to stop the blight, not to fight darkspawn.  Everyone fights darkspawn, but according to Warden lore only Wardens can kill archdemons.  They established this order to prevent the blight from destroying humanity.  Fair enough.  What I am not understanding is how summoning a demon army that will also destroy humanity is better than the darkspawn destroying it.  Moreover, Clarel was not the first to summon a demon army.  That honor goes to Sophia Dryden as far as I know.  Of course it does prevent blights, but it is far beyond foolish thinking.  It is foolish and highly dangerous thinking.  It serves the point that while the Wardens might bbe peerless warriors, they aqre not sound strategists as far as we have seen.  That they would seriously consider it let alone act upon it shows how their zealous fanaticism needs to be checked with a capital C.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I would offer that both of you raise good point.  Most of the Wardens were not controlled, but they were heavily influenced.  However, even if the calling had been real, it would not have been the end of the Wardens.  Recall that in the first book alluded to in DAO Duncan was brought in from another country.  So even if all the Wardens in Orlais and Ferelden died, more would have come from elsewhere.  The order would not have been destroyed.

 

Now as I follow this discussion, Wardens exist to stop the blight, not to fight darkspawn.  Everyone fights darkspawn, but according to Warden lore only Wardens can kill archdemons.  They established this order to prevent the blight from destroying humanity.  Fair enough.  What I am not understanding is how summoning a demon army that will also destroy humanity is better than the darkspawn destroying it. 

Clarel apparently thought that the rest of the Wardens were feeling it. I guess. This isn't actually explored, but her actions don't make a whole lot of sense unless she either thought they were hearing the Calling or assumed they would soon (which, to be fair, isn't an entirely unreasonable assumption to make.)

 

As for the demon army, Clarel had hers under a lot better control than Avernus did, and even if she didn't (or if the control vanished as each Warden died) demons are less dangerous in at least one important way: a demon bleeding on you isn't probably a death sentence. The demon army destroying humanity isn't exactly the foregone conclusion you make it out to be. whereas if there was actually a danger that the next Blight wouldn't have Wardens...

[DDJ]

Clarel apparently thought that the rest of the Wardens were feeling it. I guess. This isn't actually explored, but her actions don't make a whole lot of sense unless she either thought they were hearing the Calling or assumed they would soon (which, to be fair, isn't an entirely unreasonable assumption to make.)

 

As for the demon army, Clarel had hers under a lot better control than Avernus did, and even if she didn't (or if the control vanished as each Warden died) demons are less dangerous in at least one important way: a demon bleeding on you isn't probably a death sentence. The demon army destroying humanity isn't exactly the foregone conclusion you make it out to be. whereas if there was actually a danger that the next Blight wouldn't have Wardens...

 

You are right, because it was better in the fuiture where the demon army had won  at Redcliff, but no darkspawn.  The Wardens would have fulfilled their "greater good mission."  No matter how it is sliced and diced, it is dangerous thinking and insane actions.  The Wardens need to be checked.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You are right, because it was better in the fuiture where the demon army had won  at Redcliff, but no darkspawn.  The Wardens would have fulfilled their "greater good mission."  No matter how it is sliced and diced, it is dangerous thinking and insane actions.  The Wardens need to be checked.

Half of what happened in the Dark Future was because the Empress of Orlais was assassinated, which the Wardens had no reason to see coming. If that hadn't happened, it would have been a good deal easier for the region menaced by the demon army to defend itself against it. In addition there was the Breach, which was apparently the work of controlled Wardens (this is arguably Clarel's fault, but wasn't part of the plan as it was pitched to her) and resulted in demons the Wardens didn't actually control. Besides which, as messy as things were, a Blight still would have made things a good deal worse.

 

I agree that the demon army didn't help and that the Wardens need to be answerable to someone else, but what I'm saying is that as far as Clarel knew, there was an argument for it.

[DDJ]

Half of what happened in the Dark Future was because the Empress of Orlais was assassinated, which the Wardens had no reason to see coming. If that hadn't happened, it would have been a good deal easier for the region menaced by the demon army to defend itself against it. In addition there was the Breach, which was apparently the work of controlled Wardens (this is arguably Clarel's fault, but wasn't part of the plan as it was pitched to her) and resulted in demons the Wardens didn't actually control. Besides which, as messy as things were, a Blight still would have made things a good deal worse.

 

I agree that the demon army didn't help and that the Wardens need to be answerable to someone else, but what I'm saying is that as far as Clarel knew, there was an argument for it.

 

You are right that she felt she had a reason, but it is still dangerous thinking.  The darkspawn are as you have pointed out a very dangerous threat.  Raising an immortal even more dangerous threat with the same potential is not wise.  Everyone believes they have reasons for their actions from Mother Theresa to Josef Stalin and everyone in between.  What makes the Wardens most dangerous are several facts.  One, they have unlimited power.  As the adage goes, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Same with the Seekers, the Chantry and the Templars.  There are doubtless good ones of course.  You cannot judge an organization by only a few Wardens, templars or seekers.  It is not fair.  The second is that their fanaticism.  Solas points it out to the elf woman on the way to Crestwood.  Fanaticism in any form is dangerous and I mean if it is well intended or ill intended.  Third they are protected by plot armor.  Bioware wants us to believe in the Wardens no matter what they do.  The worst they ever say of them comes from the Divine (or spirit or whatever) who calls snuffing out her life and hundred of others "a tragic mistake."  So, while we may never agree on everything in the games, that is part of the fun - the discussions.  I think we can agree that we need Dragon Age 4 as soon as possible and another book or two soon.  For my part, if I do not hear that a DA 4 is in the works soon I am leading an Exalted march on Bioware.

 

As always, I respect your opinions and insights.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Clarel apparently thought that the rest of the Wardens were feeling it. I guess. This isn't actually explored, but her actions don't make a whole lot of sense unless she either thought they were hearing the Calling or assumed they would soon (which, to be fair, isn't an entirely unreasonable assumption to make.)

 

As for the demon army, Clarel had hers under a lot better control than Avernus did, and even if she didn't (or if the control vanished as each Warden died) demons are less dangerous in at least one important way: a demon bleeding on you isn't probably a death sentence. The demon army destroying humanity isn't exactly the foregone conclusion you make it out to be. whereas if there was actually a danger that the next Blight wouldn't have Wardens...

 

Demon army plan was pure stupidity and insanity , she just created another world threat (and yes pretty much unleashing demon army onto world would mean end of the world) to destroy another world threat (that didn't even occur yet) it could pretty much go only bad and it did as we can see if Inquisitor fails to stop her. Grey wardens aren't irreplaceable even if they died you can easily create new.

[katamuro]

Demon army plan was pure stupidity and insanity , she just created another world threat (and yes pretty much unleashing demon army onto world would mean end of the world) to destroy another world threat (that didn't even occur yet) it could pretty much go only bad and it did as we can see if Inquisitor fails to stop her. Grey wardens aren't irreplaceable even if they died you can easily create new.

 

Well not easily considering the survival rate. And yeah the whole creating demon army to fight the blight is incredibly stupid. Even if they manage to control all the demons until they go down into the Deep Roads there is absolutely no guarantee what is going to happen when they awaken another old God. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well not easily considering the survival rate. And yeah the whole creating demon army to fight the blight is incredibly stupid. Even if they manage to control all the demons until they go down into the Deep Roads there is absolutely no guarantee what is going to happen when they awaken another old God. 

While joining is quite lethal it isn't that leathal that it would be much trouble to create more grey wardens especially that 6 blight didn't even occur yet.After all as far it goes much more candidates survived joining than didn't . 

[Rinshikai10]

3 was presumably covered in The Last Flight; I haven't actually read it but as far as I know it's the only work that any part of is set in Weisshaupt.
 
I don't think I remember 4, but I assume it was a War Table mission.

 
I don't recall Weisshaupt sending the Templar recruits back to the south. (you have any idea which chapter that is stated in? I want to look it up in my copy of the book.) My memory may not be accurate but I do recall them becoming more secluded
 
Spoiler

Spoiler

After their commanding officer failed the joining.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 
I don't recall Weisshaupt sending the Templar recruits back to the south. (you have any idea which chapter that is stated in? I want to look it up in my copy of the book.) My memory may not be accurate but I do recall them becoming more secluded
 
Spoiler

Spoiler

After their commanding officer failed the joining.

Again: I haven't read it. That was just a guess because it stands to reason that's where it would be stated if it was at all.

[DDJ]

Half of what happened in the Dark Future was because the Empress of Orlais was assassinated, which the Wardens had no reason to see coming. If that hadn't happened, it would have been a good deal easier for the region menaced by the demon army to defend itself against it. In addition there was the Breach, which was apparently the work of controlled Wardens (this is arguably Clarel's fault, but wasn't part of the plan as it was pitched to her) and resulted in demons the Wardens didn't actually control. Besides which, as messy as things were, a Blight still would have made things a good deal worse.

 

I agree that the demon army didn't help and that the Wardens need to be answerable to someone else, but what I'm saying is that as far as Clarel knew, there was an argument for it.

 

I agree with the latter point about Clarel.  I suspect that the answer is simpler than we wish to admit.  We know from the story that she was angry she didn't have a crack at Archdemon 5.  So, if I had to guess it was a combination of pride, fear of dying and just being another name on the rolls and, frankly, foolishness.  She was a mage so she should have been smarter about demons than she was.  Perhaps the madness of a real calling was upon her.  Or, perhaps, the writers overlooked the fact that she should have known better so she could have a dramatic scene prior to falling into the fade.  I agree that she should have known better, certainly better than Sophia Dryden who was a warrior.  Well put.

[Ghost Gal]

200 years ago, Ferelden banished the Grey Wardens. Ten years ago, the Archdemon struck the one country where Wardens were scarce and unwelcome. It almost got wiped off the map because of modern Ferelden leaders' stupidity (looking at you, Low-gain) in holding onto old political stigma in the face of a Blight.

 

Today, we exile Wardens from Orlais, the most influential nation in Southern Thedas and the largest center of Grey Wardens outside Weissaupt. Next time an Archdemon awakes, guess where they'll strike? And guess who'll be too stupid to let go of old political stigma and let Grey Wardens back into the empire in the face of that Blight?

 

I'd rather keep the firefighters around in case there's a fire, thanks.

[DDJ]

200 years ago, Ferelden banished the Grey Wardens. Ten years ago, the Archdemon struck the one country where Wardens were scarce and unwelcome. It almost got wiped off the map because of modern Ferelden leaders' stupidity (looking at you, Low-gain) in holding onto old political stigma in the face of a Blight.

 

Today, we exile Wardens from Orlais, the most influential nation in Southern Thedas and the largest center of Grey Wardens outside Weissaupt. Next time an Archdemon awakes, guess where they'll strike? And guess who'll be too stupid to let go of old political stigma and let Grey Wardens back into the empire in the face of that Blight?

 

I'd rather keep the firefighters around in case there's a fire, thanks.

 

With respect, this is not the same situation.  They were not fighting a blight, they were fighting the king of Ferelden.  The situation in Orlais is not precisely the same.  Once C is out of the way, bringing them back would be an option.  Of course they only were responsible for murdering the Divine, a respected figure in every nation of Thedas.  I confess to being of mixed emotions about this, but they need a very severe check to keep them under control - particularly with this penchant for raising demon armies.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I agree with the latter point about Clarel.  I suspect that the answer is simpler than we wish to admit.  We know from the story that she was angry she didn't have a crack at Archdemon 5.  So, if I had to guess it was a combination of pride, fear of dying and just being another name on the rolls and, frankly, foolishness.  She was a mage so she should have been smarter about demons than she was.  Perhaps the madness of a real calling was upon her.  Or, perhaps, the writers overlooked the fact that she should have known better so she could have a dramatic scene prior to falling into the fade.  I agree that she should have known better, certainly better than Sophia Dryden who was a warrior.  Well put.

I think those were all a part of it, except maybe for the madness of a real Calling (although she might have been old enough) and fear of dying (she does not appear to fear for herself at all) but I think it bears note that part of the mix is almost certainly the knowledge of the Wardens' necessity. Under the situation as Corypheus caused it to appear to her, the world has a few centuries left unless it is somehow saved right now by the only people who know it is necessary.

 

As for being smart about demons... well, yeah, using them is usually an utterly terrible idea, and it arguably was even in this case. But the situation was (so far as Clarel knew) really desperate, and while the binding had some unfortunate side effects it worked surprisingly well. Probably because the bindings were made by a Tevinter, or because Nightmare helped create them.

[DDJ]

I think those were all a part of it, except maybe for the madness of a real Calling (although she might have been old enough) and fear of dying (she does not appear to fear for herself at all) but I think it bears note that part of the mix is almost certainly the knowledge of the Wardens' necessity. Under the situation as Corypheus caused it to appear to her, the world has a few centuries left unless it is somehow saved right now by the only people who know it is necessary.

 

As for being smart about demons... well, yeah, using them is usually an utterly terrible idea, and it arguably was even in this case. But the situation was (so far as Clarel knew) really desperate, and while the binding had some unfortunate side effects it worked surprisingly well. Probably because the bindings were made by a Tevinter, or because Nightmare helped create them.

 

I agree, and while we agree to disagree about some things, the majority of Vints I have seen - Dorian being a very noble exception as is Felix - have been reprehensible.  Sadly, I would guess that they will always be "the bad guys,"  Them and some of the Qun I would guess.  One thing that has begun to bother me is the dependency of various groups that make them very vulnerable - the Templars being a good case in point (lyrium) and the Wardens (taint).  I guess we will learn more in DA4.