1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I agree, and while we agree to disagree about some things, the majority of Vints I have seen - Dorian being a very noble exception as is Felix - have been reprehensible.  Sadly, I would guess that they will always be "the bad guys,"  Them and some of the Qun I would guess.  One thing that has begun to bother me is the dependency of various groups that make them very vulnerable - the Templars being a good case in point (lyrium) and the Wardens (taint).  I guess we will learn more in DA4.   

Well, Dorian is a sign of hope for the country.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say that whether he succeeds depends on whether or not we choose for him to in DA4. I don't think he'll succeed entirely, of course. Some things just go too deep.

 

As for those dependencies, those are an integral part of the group and necessary to their functions, and related to a greater theme in this setting that the more magical power you have, the more you pay for it.

[Mistic]

Of course they only were responsible for murdering the Divine, a respected figure in every nation of Thedas.

 

They were under the thrall of a powerful Darkspawn-Magister, so I don't think we can blame them for that. And if we want to be technical about it, it was Nightmare who killed the Divine.

[diaspora2k5]

With respect, this is not the same situation.  They were not fighting a blight, they were fighting the king of Ferelden.  The situation in Orlais is not precisely the same.  Once C is out of the way, bringing them back would be an option.  Of course they only were responsible for murdering the Divine, a respected figure in every nation of Thedas.  I confess to being of mixed emotions about this, but they need a very severe check to keep them under control - particularly with this penchant for raising demon armies.

Well no, this I'd blame both Hawke and Solas for. Hawke for unleashing him in the first place and Solas for giving a Darkspawn a powerful elven artifact. The Orlesian Wardens are one of the biggest victims of the game.

[DDJ]

Well no, this I'd blame both Hawke and Solas for. Hawke for unleashing him in the first place and Solas for giving a Darkspawn a powerful elven artifact. The Orlesian Wardens are one of the biggest victims of the game.

 

Solas yes and for sure.  People seem to lose their minds in these games.  Hawke, I don't know.  Hawke was trying to escape a trap set by people trying to kill Hawke's family.  So yes, while there is blame to be had, Solas bears the brunt of it.

 

They were under the thrall of a powerful Darkspawn-Magister, so I don't think we can blame them for that. And if we want to be technical about it, it was Nightmare who killed the Divine.

 

That may well be so, but the Wardens got him there and not all of them were controlled using Stroud as an example.  The Warden mages accepted the plan and willingly killed their own comrades to raise this demon army, and surely the Wardens were responsible for smuggling C into the conclave.  Technically the Inquisitor killed the Divine by grabbing the sphere, but the sphere would not have been there without Solas.  The Divine would not have been there by herself except for the Wardens, presumably, dragging her to that room.  And, of course, the Wardens would not have been there if lClarel had not embraced the madness.  I do not think she was thinking rationally, but it surely does not excuse the others who let her do it.  In the DLC for the keep's recovery in DAO it makes mention of the Warden Commander being sent into the Deep Roads by his own people when he got "strange."  So I cannot excuse them.  As I look back over the games and books, they have a penchant for extremes, and some of the extremes are far worse than the cause.  By my count this makes the second time they have raised a demon army.  If they do it three more times they will equal the number of times the archdemons have tried to destroy it.  Now that is, I suppose, a heretical concept.  I respect your thought on this.  We need DA4 asap.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

By my count this makes the second time they have raised a demon army.  If they do it three more times they will equal the number of times the archdemons have tried to destroy it.  Now that is, I suppose, a heretical concept.  I respect your thought on this.  We need DA4 asap.

In the vast majority of cases a demon army is not a serious threat to the world. The main reason it was in Inquisition is because of the perfect storm where

• the Orlesian Empire was in Civil War (which Corypheus was not responsible for, but took advantage of and took steps to intensify)
• there were demons other than the army due to the Breach (which isn't actually the same force,) and
• the Chantry (which would otherwise be the place to go for countermeasures) had lost a major chunk of its military power with the Circles and Templars simultaneously rebelling (and Corypheus twisted the knife deeper by killing the Divine and sending agents to take over the rebelling armies.)

 

Though I suppose the fact that what Avernus did was not a credible apocalypse is cancelled out by the fact that the Architect's plans might have been (if he actually had the ability to Taint the world.) So, yeah, they do cause almost half as many apocalypses as they avert. Though since that's the worst thing you can say about them...

[DDJ]

In the vast majority of cases a demon army is not a serious threat to the world. The main reason it was in Inquisition is because of the perfect storm where

• the Orlesian Empire was in Civil War (which Corypheus was not responsible for, but took advantage of and took steps to intensify)
• there were demons other than the army due to the Breach (which isn't actually the same force,) and
• the Chantry (which would otherwise be the place to go for countermeasures) had lost a major chunk of its military power with the Circles and Templars simultaneously rebelling (and Corypheus twisted the knife deeper by killing the Divine and sending agents to take over the rebelling armies.)

 

Though I suppose the fact that what Avernus did was not a credible apocalypse is cancelled out by the fact that the Architect's plans might have been (if he actually had the ability to Taint the world.) So, yeah, they do cause almost half as many apocalypses as they avert. Though since that's the worst thing you can say about them...

 

I had forgotten about the architect's apocalypse.  The fact that they "were not serious" does not cancel them out.  So thank you for the stats.  What bothers me is how many times they attempted the same thing that we do not know about.  And while I appreciate the kindness, and fully respect your opinions, we agree to disagree.  I think that you are right - destroying the very world you have sworn to save is about the worst thing we know of . . . yet.  Have you heard any news about a DA4 in the works?  Or a book at least?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I had forgotten about the architect's apocalypse.  The fact that they "were not serious" does not cancel them out.  So thank you for the stats.  What bothers me is how many times they attempted the same thing that we do not know about.  And while I appreciate the kindness, and fully respect your opinions, we agree to disagree.  I think that you are right - destroying the very world you have sworn to save is about the worst thing we know of . . . yet.  Have you heard any news about a DA4 in the works?  Or a book at least?

Nothing new, no. But after they did so well with Inquisition, they have to know one would sell. (As long as they don't let EA rush them. Probably even if they do, but a nonrushed game can be a masterpiece.)

 

As for the fact that "it's not serious" cancelling it out... well, I'm not saying Soldier's Peak wasn't serious. It was. What I'm saying is that it wasn't serious enough to be called a "potential apocalypse." The infrastructure for preventing an army of demons out of Soldier's Peak from ending the world was in place, if it was needed. And we don't know that there were enough demons there that they would have been a threat to an unprotected world (or at least a threat major enough to end the world) even without Avernus to check them. There are places where demons can come through apart from Soldier's Peak. The world still exists.

[DDJ]

Nothing new, no. But after they did so well with Inquisition, they have to know one would sell. (As long as they don't let EA rush them. Probably even if they do, but a nonrushed game can be a masterpiece.)

 

As for the fact that "it's not serious" cancelling it out... well, I'm not saying Soldier's Peak wasn't serious. It was. What I'm saying is that it wasn't serious enough to be called a "potential apocalypse." The infrastructure for preventing an army of demons out of Soldier's Peak from ending the world was in place, if it was needed. And we don't know that there were enough demons there that they would have been a threat to an unprotected world (or at least a threat major enough to end the world) even without Avernus to check them. There are places where demons can come through apart from Soldier's Peak. The world still exists.

 

Well put and I agree with you.  It goes to my point that someone who is not controlled by Chantry fables, lirium (SP?), blood magic or whatever needs to be in charge of them.  They may be needed, but they cannot be permitted to be uncontrolled.  They cannot go on with the "we stopped the darkspawn threat by starting another apocalypse philosophy.  As to the masterpiece, yes.  I have never been disappointed by a Dragon Age game.  Perhaps they will remaster 1 and 2.  That would be great.

[DDJ]

Since my last post I have been weighing this "greater good" business and exiling them again.  It is established that the Wardens can and will kill to preserve their secrets.  Duncan did and he can hardly have been the only one.  So now the heretical questions.  Just who are the Wardens willing to kill to preserve their secrets?  Are they willing to kill their wives if they find out?  Their parents, children?  Where is the line drawn or is their any line at all.  Keep in mind that Stroud makes the point that he is bound by an oath of secrecy.  While I find it hard to believe that any criminal or conscript would consider any oath to the Wardens binding, particularly if they were forced into it, the Wardens are now sworn to eliminate all threats - including their own families if necessary - to preserve their secrets.  Now, let's have a hypothetical situation.  Arl Eamon learns how the Wardens are made.  The Fifth Blight choice now becomes kill Arl Eamon to preserve the secrets and let Ferelden fall or let him live to unite Ferelden and defeat the Blight.  After all, the Blight does come first.  There will be plenty of time to murder him later.  Of course, he could have told others so the likely targets are his brother, wife and child and any witnesses to the murders of course.  The problem lies in the fact that Eamon, by the game's admission, is very popular so it has to be secret.  Of course a murder on that level will draw attention.  It is a sticky wicket.

 

I was watching the Scorch Trials last evening and was struck by the similarities of the situation.  In the trials the agency is trying to save the world from the Flare, a virus that is killing all of mankind.  To do this they harvest brains or brain fluid from conscripts killing the conscript.  Now for reasons very obvious the conscripts don't like being murdered for the greater good and fight back.  Following the greater good philosophy, this seems very selfish of them.  Shouldn't they be honored to die horribly for the greater good?

 

Just some random and heretical thoughts.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Arl Eamon learns how the Wardens are made.  The Fifth Blight choice now becomes kill Arl Eamon to preserve the secrets and let Ferelden fall or let him live to unite Ferelden and defeat the Blight.  After all, the Blight does come first.  There will be plenty of time to murder him later.  Of course, he could have told others so the likely targets are his brother, wife and child and any witnesses to the murders of course.  The problem lies in the fact that Eamon, by the game's admission, is very popular so it has to be secret.  Of course a murder on that level will draw attention.  It is a sticky wicket.

The secrecy isn't that hard and fast. Anora knows a very damaging secret about the Wardens and yet she's either not killed because she is politically useful or she's locked in a tower and probably killed later for reasons unrelated to what she knows. And Varel is allowed to officiate the Joinings because he's a useful administrator and can be trusted to keep his mouth shut in front of those who can't be. I'd imagine Eamon would get to live for the same reason: he's useful.

 

 

I was watching the Scorch Trials last evening and was struck by the similarities of the situation.  In the trials the agency is trying to save the world from the Flare, a virus that is killing all of mankind.  To do this they harvest brains or brain fluid from conscripts killing the conscript.  Now for reasons very obvious the conscripts don't like being murdered for the greater good and fight back.  Following the greater good philosophy, this seems very selfish of them.  Shouldn't they be honored to die horribly for the greater good?

"Honored" is too strong a word, but you can absolutely argue that they shouldn't fight back.

[DDJ]

Sorry, but I have pondered this for some time.  With respect, I would argue that they absolutely should fight back.  Anyone who uses genocide (as in the Scorch Trials) as a policy tool is beyond comprehension.  Survival is the basic primal instinct for all sentient beings.  With respect, I cannot agree with you on this.

 

Still and all there is some good news.  There have been signals from Bioware that they are developing a DA 4.  I always hope for answers, but usually am left with a lot more questions.  

 

I finished another round of DAI for those who are curious.  For those who wondered, I tried not exiling the Wardens this time.  It is obvious that Bioware is supportive of this outcome, but the results seemed hollow and unrealistic considering the multiple crimes that they have perpetrated.  That Stroud is noble changes nothing really.  One man's nobility hardly rectifies the major crimes committed for the "greater good."  So, with respect to everyone's opinion, I am back to exiling them in DAI, keeping siblings out of the Deep Roads in DA 2 and frankly taking satisfaction in installing Alastair as King of Ferelden so that as he goes mad and turns into a ghoul the Wardens' dark secrets will be exposed for the world to see.

 

As I said, I hold a dark world view.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Sorry, but I have pondered this for some time.  With respect, I would argue that they absolutely should fight back.  Anyone who uses genocide (as in the Scorch Trials) as a policy tool is beyond comprehension.  Survival is the basic primal instinct for all sentient beings.  With respect, I cannot agree with you on this.
 
Still and all there is some good news.  There have been signals from Bioware that they are developing a DA 4.  I always hope for answers, but usually am left with a lot more questions.  
 
I finished another round of DAI for those who are curious.  For those who wondered, I tried not exiling the Wardens this time.  It is obvious that Bioware is supportive of this outcome, but the results seemed hollow and unrealistic considering the multiple crimes that they have perpetrated.  That Stroud is noble changes nothing really.  One man's nobility hardly rectifies the major crimes committed for the "greater good."  So, with respect to everyone's opinion, I am back to exiling them in DAI, keeping siblings out of the Deep Roads in DA 2 and frankly taking satisfaction in installing Alastair as King of Ferelden so that as he goes mad and turns into a ghoul the Wardens' dark secrets will be exposed for the world to see.
 
As I said, I hold a dark world view.

So who is going to fight the dark spawn and the next blight ?

[CardButton]

Their unstable, we know little about the range of Cory's influence and there is absolutely no guarantee that they will not fall in line under another manipulative psychopath if they are sent out on their own.  Combine this with the idea that they are either 1) Not involved in the final conflict because you sent them away, or 2) They are not involved in the final conflict because the Inquisitor has forbidden it ... I found it more pragmatic to have them under the Inquisition's scrutiny and eye until such a time where the crisis with Cory has ended.  They are still useful tools and excellent fighters, even if their targeted influence is focused on non-cory forces. Sending them away feels more like hiding the mess rather than trying to clean it up or fix it.

There is also a series of war table operations that can allow them to redeem themselves quite a bit against local Darkspawn, with minimal casualties if done correctly.

[DDJ]

Exile is not akin to putting all of them to the sword.  There are also countries neighboring Orlais.  So they needn't be far, and since the fourth blight and the fifth are four centuries apart, it gives them plenty of time to redeem themselves - or to summon more demon armies if they prefer.  Keep in mind that when DAO came out there were only two Wardens in Ferelden -later three with Riordan.  200 were on their way from Orlais.  One cannot simply excuse their multiple crimes because of something that may not occur for centuries.  Sorry, I do and see your points and respect them, but I cannot excuse their actions.

[CoM Solaufein]

Why exile them when you can use them for fodder on special missions.

[DDJ]

Why exile them when you can use them for fodder on special missions.

 

That is a fair point and well taken.  My thoughts are that by using them I am allowing them a loophole. Keeping in mind that three fourth's of the origin stories involve non-humans, and to my mind once the truth is known about the Divine, despite the complexity of her death, the common folk could well view this as the Inquisition condoning her death and the deaths of hos many others.  Since the Wardens were involved, willingly or no, and Clarice is not under C's thrall, and the fact that the veil was opened any number of places causing loss of life at the least, one cannot dismiss it.  I tried that option too, and while you get better approvals from your people, the point remains that pardoning them in the end amounts to condoning their actions which sets the entire DAI game in play.    

[straykat]

The only reason I wouldn't side with the Wardens is if I was a new player. Otherwise, it's a no brainer. I know too much about them.

[DDJ]

The only reason I wouldn't side with the Wardens is if I was a new player. Otherwise, it's a no brainer. I know too much about them.

 

Which is precisely why I exile them.  I do know too much about them and their sordid past.  As I said, neither Stroud nor the HoF define the bulk of the order.  They are more of exceptions to it.  Their is a line in DAI by Stroud to the effect of "how dare you judge us."  I dare because someone should.

[straykat]

It's a necessary evil though, if there are still blights. That's what I mean by knowing too much. I'm not gonna be another Loghain.

 

Actually, it's worse than Loghain...since he truly is ignorant. I'm not.

[DDJ]

It's a necessary evil though, if there are still blights. That's what I mean by knowing too much. I'm not gonna be another Loghain.

 

Actually, it's worse than Loghain...since he truly is ignorant. I'm not.

 

That is your choice of course, and I sincerely respect it.  I believe that the Wardens will never improve if they are not made to suffer the consequences of their actions.

[straykat]

That is your choice of course, and I sincerely respect it.  I believe that the Wardens will never improve if they are not made to suffer the consequences of their actions.

 

That's probably true. I feel the same about mages and templars as well.

 

I just think there's a lot more risk involved here.

[DDJ]

That's probably true. I feel the same about mages and templars as well.

 

I just think there's a lot more risk involved here.

 

Likely you are right about the more risk, but Blights are only one of them, and an infrequent one.  Had either Clarice or Sophia Dryden been successful in summoning their demon armies, there would be no Thedas to worry about Blights.  I agree that it is a complex issue, and in the end there are no black or white answers, only gray ones.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Likely you are right about the more risk, but Blights are only one of them, and an infrequent one.  Had either Clarice or Sophia Dryden been successful in summoning their demon armies, there would be no Thedas to worry about Blights.  I agree that it is a complex issue, and in the end there are no black or white answers, only gray ones.

I'll give you most of this, but the thing about Blights being infrequent is that that's how it has worked rather than how it's guaranteed to work. And there's some players who've interpreted some of the weird things that you can observe in the Western Approach as meaning there's an Old God there. And since we know there's darkspawn there...

[Alaric]

I elected to conscript the Grey Wardens into the service of the Inquisition because despite the fact that they tried to summon a demon army, they are still among the best Warriors in all of Thedas; not to mention that yes, Corypheus is still darkspawn, and the darkspawn rising up in the Western Approach, Storm Coast and parts of the Lower Hinterlands are still an issue. Something the Grey Wardens should be policing.

We need to remember that the Grey Wardens of Orlais were the ones responsible for the demon army (a few may have been from Ferelden, but I'm not sure we have any real information on what the current Grey Warden numbers are over there, despite Vigil's Keep.) The First-Warden didn't have his hand in this, and other Grey Wardens in Thedas most likely didn't know that anything was going on with Corypheus until later on; but this might also mean they were out of his 'range' for the fake-calling. The influence and control Corypheus had on the other Wardens however was pretty severe and is still a risk, yet as a whole, most of them were reacting out of fear and the commanders of their superior officers, rather than direct control from the Tainted-Magister.The Demon army was intended to be their last ditch attempt, something that Warden-Commander Clarel realizes too late is the wrong course of action. Yet all of these Wardens were prepared to make the Ultimate Sacrifice, not for themselves, but for the continued survival of all the people of Thedas.

Yes, the leadership was questionable and many of the Wardens did question the method of resorting to Blood Rituals to bind Demons, yet to me banishing them for doing what they thought was right is counter-productive. The Inquisition needs all the help it can get.

After the fact, this fake-calling doesn't seem to hinder the Grey Wardens once they become aware of Corypheus' plans; then going on to do great feats for the Inquisition against both demons and darkspawn. (Depending on whether or not you get them all killed on the Mission Table.)

That's just my two cents on the matter. I couldn't justify dismissing the Wardens; they're too valuable and mean well. They're not malicious Blood Mages. They're men and women who have given their lives to cause that no one will remember them for.

[DDJ]

I elected to conscript the Grey Wardens into the service of the Inquisition because despite the fact that they tried to summon a demon army, they are still among the best Warriors in all of Thedas; not to mention that yes, Corypheus is still darkspawn, and the darkspawn rising up in the Western Approach, Storm Coast and parts of the Lower Hinterlands are still an issue. Something the Grey Wardens should be policing.

We need to remember that the Grey Wardens of Orlais were the ones responsible for the demon army (a few may have been from Ferelden, but I'm not sure we have any real information on what the current Grey Warden numbers are over there, despite Vigil's Keep.) The First-Warden didn't have his hand in this, and other Grey Wardens in Thedas most likely didn't know that anything was going on with Corypheus until later on; but this might also mean they were out of his 'range' for the fake-calling. The influence and control Corypheus had on the other Wardens however was pretty severe and is still a risk, yet as a whole, most of them were reacting out of fear and the commanders of their superior officers, rather than direct control from the Tainted-Magister.The Demon army was intended to be their last ditch attempt, something that Warden-Commander Clarel realizes too late is the wrong course of action. Yet all of these Wardens were prepared to make the Ultimate Sacrifice, not for themselves, but for the continued survival of all the people of Thedas.

Yes, the leadership was questionable and many of the Wardens did question the method of resorting to Blood Rituals to bind Demons, yet to me banishing them for doing what they thought was right is counter-productive. The Inquisition needs all the help it can get.

After the fact, this fake-calling doesn't seem to hinder the Grey Wardens once they become aware of Corypheus' plans; then going on to do great feats for the Inquisition against both demons and darkspawn. (Depending on whether or not you get them all killed on the Mission Table.)

That's just my two cents on the matter. I couldn't justify dismissing the Wardens; they're too valuable and mean well. They're not malicious Blood Mages. They're men and women who have given their lives to cause that no one will remember them for.

 

It is a good two cents.  My point is that if Stroud realized the issue others should have and and taken issue with it.  There is no hint that they do.  I have never been an admirer of the Wardens blight or not.  Nor do I trust them to serve anything but their own ends.  That they have good intentions I will grant, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  Still and all you have a well thought out and reasoned argument worth far more than a mere 2 cents!