1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Alaric]

It is a good two cents.  My point is that if Stroud realized the issue others should have and and taken issue with it.  There is no hint that they do.  I have never been an admirer of the Wardens blight or not.  Nor do I trust them to serve anything but their own ends.  That they have good intentions I will grant, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  Still and all you have a well thought out and reasoned argument worth far more than a mere 2 cents!

I agree with you there, the leadership of the Wardens of Orlais is terrible. Clarel was short-sighted and seemed almost too eager to go full force into the whole demon army idea; although she was remorseful when it came to sacrificing her own Brothers and Sisters to bind the Demons.

Despite Stroud being a Senior-Warden, it probably came down to loyalty to the Warden-Commander and other Senior-Wardens supporting the Demon Army idea, so Stroud was pretty much ousted from beginning. Especially with Erimond whispering his deceit into the ears of the Wardens. - They were very dumb in DA:I.

Thanks for the kind words too! - I love the debate we have going on the forum. It's always fun to engage my mind in something like this!

[DDJ]

I agree with you there, the leadership of the Wardens of Orlais is terrible. Clarel was short-sighted and seemed almost too eager to go full force into the whole demon army idea; although she was remorseful when it came to sacrificing her own Brothers and Sisters to bind the Demons.

Despite Stroud being a Senior-Warden, it probably came down to loyalty to the Warden-Commander and other Senior-Wardens supporting the Demon Army idea, so Stroud was pretty much ousted from beginning. Especially with Erimond whispering his deceit into the ears of the Wardens. - They were very dumb in DA:I.

Thanks for the kind words too! - I love the debate we have going on the forum. It's always fun to engage my mind in something like this!

 

You are most welcome.  

[Xerrai]

RP wise, my Inquisitor(s) exiled them by and large because she thought they have abused thier powers. Blood magic, a demon army, killing thier own members....reprehensible. Like the Templars, they have let thier zealotry control them  to the point of extremism and it had the potential to leave Thedas all the lesser. A blatant abuse of their powers and station.

 

But of course, like most other citizens of Thedas, my Inquisitor was ignorant. Ignorant of what it truly took to end a blight. She doesn't know that you have to destroy an Old God soul. Or that a warden is absolutely mandatory to destroy said soul. She just thinks that in order to end a blight, one must kill an archedemon, and all that is really required is the force and manpower to both get to it, and defeat it.

 

By her logic, if a blight did arise, then she would lead the Inquisition to fight it (and gain warden help if she could) and destroy the archedemon with blade and steel. But mind you, there was no blight on the horizon.....just an ancient order who would resort to demon summoning and blood magic, and could be corrupted by Corypheaus--Thedas's current threat--at any moment.

 

The option to exile them only came too easy.

 

But for my other Inquisitors, where I let my meta-gaming be thrown in a bit, I let the wardens stay because I know they are the only (known) way to end a true blight. Because I know that a great many of them are indeed selfless defenders that would lay down their lives and souls for Thedas. Even so, I still exiled them at times because I thought they would  be used by Coryphaeus.

[DDJ]

RP wise, my Inquisitor(s) exiled them by and large because she thought they have abused thier powers. Blood magic, a demon army, killing thier own members....reprehensible. Like the Templars, they have let thier zealotry control them  to the point of extremism and it had the potential to leave Thedas all the lesser. A blatant abuse of their powers and station.

 

But of course, like most other citizens of Thedas, my Inquisitor was ignorant. Ignorant of what it truly took to end a blight. She doesn't know that you have to destroy an Old God soul. Or that a warden is absolutely mandatory to destroy said soul. She just thinks that in order to end a blight, one must kill an archedemon, and all that is really required is the force and manpower to both get to it, and defeat it.

 

By her logic, if a blight did arise, then she would lead the Inquisition to fight it (and gain warden help if she could) and destroy the archedemon with blade and steel. But mind you, there was no blight on the horizon.....just an ancient order who would resort to demon summoning and blood magic, and could be corrupted by Corypheaus--Thedas's current threat--at any moment.

 

The option to exile them only came too easy.

 

But for my other Inquisitors, where I let my meta-gaming be thrown in a bit, I let the wardens stay because I know they are the only (known) way to end a true blight. Because I know that a great many of them are indeed selfless defenders that would lay down their lives and souls for Thedas. Even so, I still exiled them at times because I thought they would  be used by Coryphaeus.

 

Well put.  As gamers we have the advantage of knowing Warden secrets.  The Inquisitor only knows that they are using forbidden magic to summon demon armies and murdering a lot of innocent people such as the Divine.

[Mike3207]

They're the only ones that could end a Blight, and the time may come when you need their services.

[Cute Nug]

Well put.  As gamers we have the advantage of knowing Warden secrets.  The Inquisitor only knows that they are using forbidden magic to summon demon armies and murdering a lot of innocent people such as the Divine.

 

It is also a significant wrong that the Inquisition must go to war with the Orlesion derp wardens just to talk with them to warn them they are being mislead by a clearly evil Tevinter cultist. Seriously they are so stupid in DAI they won't even at least talk until a full on siege of their fortress murdering their army they supposedly needed to go find and kill the last archdemons. The murder of each others forces in war just for the opportunity to talk is unheard of stupidity. 

 

And where were the Weissaupt wardens. There is a huge sky hole that will destroy all of Thedas and the Weissaupt wardens can't be reached when mages are essential to closing it. We are left with the worst choice of rebel mages or rebel templars that won't help at first because Weissaupt is as useless as the Orlesion wardens.

I'm having trouble having interest in a DA4 when the once interesting factions like the grey wardens are worse than stupid and useless.

[DDJ]

It is also a significant wrong that the Inquisition must go to war with the Orlesion derp wardens just to talk with them to warn them they are being mislead by a clearly evil Tevinter cultist. Seriously they are so stupid in DAI they won't even at least talk until a full on siege of their fortress murdering their army they supposedly needed to go find and kill the last archdemons. The murder of each others forces in war just for the opportunity to talk is unheard of stupidity. 

 

And where were the Weissaupt wardens. There is a huge sky hole that will destroy all of Thedas and the Weissaupt wardens can't be reached when mages are essential to closing it. We are left with the worst choice of rebel mages or rebel templars that won't help at first because Weissaupt is as useless as the Orlesion wardens.

I'm having trouble having interest in a DA4 when the once interesting factions like the grey wardens are worse than stupid and useless.

 

There are indeed a lot of where the heck are theys in DAI.  Some of it is doubtless plot armor, but from an extremely cynical side, since the Wardens exist to stop the blight, perhaps their less than stellar leadership saw this as their chance.  After all, demon army kills archdemons, no more blight.  Of course, demon army massacres all of humanity, no more blights to worry about.  And of course, if the hole in the sky expands and engulfs the world, no more world and of course no more blights.  Considering their illustrious record of poor decision making I am beginning to understand why it took decades to stop the previous blights while the HoF is able to whip the crap out of the Archdemon in two years.  Disregarding plot armor, HoF never had the opportunity to be brainwashed into proper thinking.  The Wardens say that only a Warden can kill the archdemon and stop the blight, yet we know that the dark ritual can capture the dragon's essence and end the blight which means that anyone could kill the dragon once the ritual is in play.  Is this just Warden propaganda so that they can maintain their elite status?  They are permitted to do whatever they please whenever they please for "the greater good," and since their tag line is only we can stop the blights" everyone goes along with almost everything, hairbrained or not, that they come up with.  After all, only they can stop the blights and the how is a big secret they refuse to share.  No one questions, but perhaps if they had the number of demon armies trundling about would be reduced.

 

And come on, an exalted march on Bioware would be fun, and what are we all going to debate once we run out of arguments on the first three games?

 

My respect to everyone for their opinions of course.

[Cute Nug]

If DA4 has an exalted march on the grey spawn for murdering the southern Divine and hiding proto-darkspawn second sin magisters they can't keep from almost destroying the world then I might be interested in another game in the once interesting world of Dragon Age. This could actually be an exalted march intended to get the secret of how to make grey wardens and whatever else they are hiding if they refuse to reveal their secrets after their failure as an order to protect Thedas in DAI.

 

I think they still need someone who has gone through a grey warden joining/tainting to make the baby for the dark ritual they just don't have to be an actual grey warden under probable bad/derp leadership. If the grey spawn are now another failed faction then it makes sense to demand their secrets by force if needed especially after Corybits is taken care of. They might be hiding other proto-darkspwn magisters and their secrets are needed for the next eventual blight. Why is this ignored in DAI?

 

The grey spawn are truly tainted after their stupidity and absence of needed help in DAI. The chance they can be meaningfully redeemed is minimal in my opinion. It would be like trying to resurrect the failed character Orsino from DA2 and trying to make sense of their past stupidity. Bioware wrote the grey spawn into a hole of dislike as a failed faction in DAI. The grey spawn are left worse then the failed templars and southern mages because their failure was WTF ignored in DAI. Everyone wants to kill the herald because they survived an unknown blast and yet when it is discovered that the grey spawn are complicit in the murder of the Divine no one cares seems to care. Corybits was a central villain in DAI and yet the only grey spawn in DAI are a group of pathologically stupid Orlesion wardens. Just seems sad and uninteresting due to poor writing. 

 

I would have been up for the exalted march after DA2 so we could get DA3. Thedas after DAI seems too disappointing, in my opinion. I would do an exalted march on Bioware to encourage a DLC that goes to Weissaupt to make sense of the now unlikable grey spawn of Thedas if it was written well. On a separate issue, I would also like them to address why no one cared about the systematic murder of the Tranquils in DAI.

 

No disrespect to those who feel the wardens had explainable cause and weren't written poorly in DAI. This is just my opinion of DAI events focused on making sense of the story as I see it. It says much about the story Bioware wrote that I cared this long and still hope they eventually create a well received DA4 game even if it turns out to be a game I am no longer interested in after DAI. It was an interesting world and DA4 might end up being an amazing game and even have interesting grey wardens in it. 

[Genetic Destiny]

On my first playthrough, I didn't want to have an army of people that Corypheus could brainwash if he got too close, so I exiled them. I wasn't gonna take the risk of having people near me immediately try to slit my throat indoctrination style, or risk that the army I just went through the trouble of getting suddenly strengthening my enemy. If me using them was a risk that could make me lose, then I'm not gonna give Corypheus a chance to use them either. I wanted to send them as far away as possible so they can do no harm.

 

Yeah, blood magic and demon rituals are hideous but that had no effect on me banishing them. Corypheus is the problem, and since tainted creatures are his extra lives--like we find out in the Arbor Wilds--do I really want to hand my nemesis a few dozen more ways to cheat death? While my goal is to kill him?! H**L NO!

[DDJ]

On my first playthrough, I didn't want to have an army of people that Corypheus could brainwash if he got too close, so I exiled them. I wasn't gonna take the risk of having people near me immediately try to slit my throat indoctrination style, or risk that the army I just went through the trouble of getting suddenly strengthening my enemy. If me using them was a risk that could make me lose, then I'm not gonna give Corypheus a chance to use them either. I wanted to send them as far away as possible so they can do no harm.

 

Yeah, blood magic and demon rituals are hideous but that had no effect on me banishing them. Corypheus is the problem, and since tainted creatures are his extra lives--like we find out in the Arbor Wilds--do I really want to hand my nemesis a few dozen more ways to cheat death? While my goal is to kill him?! H**L NO!

 

Well put.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Historical precedent. Ferelden exiled the Grey Wardens and look at the mess that made. Not about to repeat that again.

[robertthebard]

I'll give you most of this, but the thing about Blights being infrequent is that that's how it has worked rather than how it's guaranteed to work. And there's some players who've interpreted some of the weird things that you can observe in the Western Approach as meaning there's an Old God there. And since we know there's darkspawn there...

Frankly, I don't put a lot of stock into community conspiracy theories. After all, the running gag, er, theory, was that OGB was the Inquisitor for a while.

[DDJ]

Historical precedent. Ferelden exiled the Grey Wardens and look at the mess that made. Not about to repeat that again.

 

That is a fair point, but weren't they raising demons then too?  The multiplicity of crimes they have committed, regardless of the "greater good" bit, is astounding.  Thousands have died because of them, but they always skate like teflon men.  With respect, they were exiled for four centuries without a blight.  With due respect, I cannot justify what they did as for the greater good.  Genocide on the scale that they have committed it calls for justice, and justice is not letting them get away with whatever they d*mned well please.

[Xilizhra]

There's no reason for it. Corypheus needs to be in close proximity to the Wardens to control them directly; the only alternative is for the Venatori to use their spell, and the Wardens are pretty good at avoiding the Venatori. The dangers can be minimized, and the Wardens are too useful to throw away. Additionally, I believe in atonement through work instead of punishment, which is why I always give people a chance to redeem themselves.

[veeia]

There's a lot of reasons for either way, tbh.

 

My first character who kept them was a big believer in redemption, and also had a lot of sympathy for people who made bad decisions in desperate situations. She felt like the real villain was Corypheus, and that people shouldn't be punished too harshly for being manipulated by his plan, unless there was malicious intent. She also respected the Grey Wardens a lot based on Blackwall's dialogues and felt they were an honorable organization.

 

My second character who kept them felt that it was the only way to keep an eye on them. She felt their single minded obsession to the stop the Blight was dangerous in how they'd justify any means to that end. Exiling them only might lead to them becoming even more extreme and less willing to consider the ramifications of their actions. Keeping them meant she could direct their actions in useful ways and then help reshape their leadership so that those kinds of drastic actions weren't taken again.

 

Characters who exiled them tended to view them as either an organization whose usefulness didn't outweigh the potential dangers they posed, or who found their actions too despicable to even consider if they could be salvaged.

 

Outside of my characters motivations, I'm...mixed on them. They're clearly a dangerous group, but also needed in certain instances and their mission is not inherently bad at all, just the lengths they'll go to in order to satisfy it. I felt like the Last Flight did a great job in fleshing out why their grim and extreme mentality is needed during a Blight, but also the cost of that kind of mentality is reflected in that book, the Calling, and the game. Perhaps if the Wardens had more oversight, or were given more purpose when there is not a Blight, they'd be a more functional organization, I don't know.

[Beerfish]

They are self serving traitors, lucky for them they have the whole we can save you from the blight thing going for they should have been punted long ago.  Every time you see a warden and ask them for help in anything non blight related they give you a we are neutral song and dance and yet they are poking their noses into all sorts of unseemly things time and again.

 

They also are a huge waste of good human resources with the joining ritual

[DDJ]

There's no reason for it. Corypheus needs to be in close proximity to the Wardens to control them directly; the only alternative is for the Venatori to use their spell, and the Wardens are pretty good at avoiding the Venatori. The dangers can be minimized, and the Wardens are too useful to throw away. Additionally, I believe in atonement through work instead of punishment, which is why I always give people a chance to redeem themselves.

 

Fair enough, but the question becomes just how much work can they do to atone for the hundreds of dead innocents.  Actually exile is a blessing in some ways.  They can avoid C as the game shows but the Inquisitor has no way of knowing this.  And what the world learns is that the Grey Wardens were involved in the murder of the Divine and thousands of others.  Exile is about as forgiving as I can get and, as others have said, exile does not equal extermination.  I respect your views about redemption greatly, but I am not certain that the Inquisition can provide it.

[DDJ]

There's a lot of reasons for either way, tbh.

 

My first character who kept them was a big believer in redemption, and also had a lot of sympathy for people who made bad decisions in desperate situations. She felt like the real villain was Corypheus, and that people shouldn't be punished too harshly for being manipulated by his plan, unless there was malicious intent. She also respected the Grey Wardens a lot based on Blackwall's dialogues and felt they were an honorable organization.

 

My second character who kept them felt that it was the only way to keep an eye on them. She felt their single minded obsession to the stop the Blight was dangerous in how they'd justify any means to that end. Exiling them only might lead to them becoming even more extreme and less willing to consider the ramifications of their actions. Keeping them meant she could direct their actions in useful ways and then help reshape their leadership so that those kinds of drastic actions weren't taken again.

 

Characters who exiled them tended to view them as either an organization whose usefulness didn't outweigh the potential dangers they posed, or who found their actions too despicable to even consider if they could be salvaged.

 

Outside of my characters motivations, I'm...mixed on them. They're clearly a dangerous group, but also needed in certain instances and their mission is not inherently bad at all, just the lengths they'll go to in order to satisfy it. I felt like the Last Flight did a great job in fleshing out why their grim and extreme mentality is needed during a Blight, but also the cost of that kind of mentality is reflected in that book, the Calling, and the game. Perhaps if the Wardens had more oversight, or were given more purpose when there is not a Blight, they'd be a more functional organization, I don't know.

 

This is very well thought out in my view.  Which brings up the point which crosses into Trespasser (see Who Likes Teagan Now).  Why is it that the Inquisition, which has performed admirably, requires disbandonment or oversight when the Wardens don't.  It is very inconsistent. 

[Xilizhra]

Fair enough, but the question becomes just how much work can they do to atone for the hundreds of dead innocents.  Actually exile is a blessing in some ways.  They can avoid C as the game shows but the Inquisitor has no way of knowing this.  And what the world learns is that the Grey Wardens were involved in the murder of the Divine and thousands of others.  Exile is about as forgiving as I can get and, as others have said, exile does not equal extermination.  I respect your views about redemption greatly, but I am not certain that the Inquisition can provide it.

It's actually very easy to figure out: plenty of the Wardens weren't enthralled, they were just acting under bad orders. If Corypheus' influence stretched that far, none of them could have been saved. Also, I'm fairly sure that Wardens being involved with killing the Divine is the Inquisition's secret.

[DDJ]

They are self serving traitors, lucky for them they have the whole we can save you from the blight thing going for they should have been punted long ago.  Every time you see a warden and ask them for help in anything non blight related they give you a we are neutral song and dance and yet they are poking their noses into all sorts of unseemly things time and again.

 

They also are a huge waste of good human resources with the joining ritual

 

That surely sums up many of the conclusions I came to.  Worse, they have not to my knowledge even tried to find a cure for the ghoul poison they inflict on their people.  It is a join and die philosophy.

[DDJ]

It's actually very easy to figure out: plenty of the Wardens weren't enthralled, they were just acting under bad orders. If Corypheus' influence stretched that far, none of them could have been saved. Also, I'm fairly sure that Wardens being involved with killing the Divine is the Inquisition's secret.

 

Point taken, but don't modern laws allow soldiers to refuse illegal orders?  That they would stand by and let a demon army be raised is monstrous.  So once again the Wardens skate.  I do have doubts that Vivienne and Cassandra will be prone to keeping this secret, particularly if they supported exile.

[veeia]

This is very well thought out in my view.  Which brings up the point which crosses into Trespasser (see Who Likes Teagan Now).  Why is it that the Inquisition, which has performed admirably, requires disbandonment or oversight when the Wardens don't.  It is very inconsistent. 

 

I haven't read that thread yet, but I'll check it out later. IMO, it's pretty reasonable for Fereldan to feel threatened by the Inquisition, especially because of its ties to Orlais and the former Orlesian conquest of Fereldan. The Inquisition, like the Wardens, was created for a singular purpose, but unlike the Wardens, has fulfilled its mandate. You can definitely argue it has not entirely since Solas is still at large and there's a larger threat, but that's up for debate, and I especially think it would be understandable for a Fereldan leader to assume you were using that as a power grab.

 

I think if the Wardens join the Inquisition, that is oversight, even if temporarily. But it is a bit different, because the Inquisition is not just a military organization that has a singular purpose, it has functioned much more as a political/diplomatic organization that has undergone operations in territories that belong to Fereldan and Orlais and negotiated all kinds of things. For that reason, it's a much larger threat to Fereldan's sovereignty than the Wardens.  To be honest, divine oversight is not a strong concession to make, because it doesn't actually give either nation much power over the Inquisition, so it's more of a symbolic gesture in the immediate future anyway.

 

Ultimately I think the two choices parallel each other nicely, and it is sort of interesting to consider what it means if you disband one and not the other. Something I hadn't really considered linking, so I appreciate you bringing that up!

[Xilizhra]

Point taken, but don't modern laws allow soldiers to refuse illegal orders?  That they would stand by and let a demon army be raised is monstrous.  So once again the Wardens skate.  I do have doubts that Vivienne and Cassandra will be prone to keeping this secret, particularly if they supported exile.

Vivienne wouldn't know unless she was in the Fade, and I don't think Cassandra would go behind the Inquisitor's back on the matter; I doubt even Vivienne would, with the Grey Wardens as Inquisition allies.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That surely sums up many of the conclusions I came to.  Worse, they have not to my knowledge even tried to find a cure for the ghoul poison they inflict on their people.  It is a join and die philosophy.

The one of them who had found a cure by accident was removed from their ranks, and they didn't even try to replicate her experience. Given her apparent immunity to the Taint doesn't make sense from a practical standpoint any more than it does from a moral one. So yeah, you're probably right.

[DDJ]

The one of them who had found a cure by accident was removed from their ranks, and they didn't even try to replicate her experience. Given her apparent immunity to the Taint doesn't make sense from a practical matter any more than it does from a moral one. So yeah, you're probably right.

 

Thank you.  This is one of the reasons why the Wardens do need oversight.  I do think that their avowed higher mission is  admirable, but they do absolutely nothing to help themselves.  Conscripts who don't want to be there in the first place, the drink or die philosophy etc. are not guaranteed to make allies or people loyal to the Order.  Nor does killing those who learn the secrets which frankly are not that secret considering Anders in DA 2.  Surely he revealed Warden secrets, and who knows how many others have successfully fled the Wardens.  So if there is an Order who needs oversight, I would strongly suggest that the Wardens are it by someone who is not so dedicated to death that they fight ultimately useless battles in the Deep Roads.  The dwarves may well respect them for it, but the living are always far more useful than the dead.