1570 réponses à ce sujet

[veeia]

TBH, if you think about it, it makes sense for the Wardens to not prioritize curing it. Or at least for the upper echelons of the order. The taint makes them easier to control. It draws a hard line between warden and not warden which fosters loyalty there and detracts from their loyalty to other things like family or country. It makes it so they cannot have a family. It raises the stakes and forces them to see their cause as a high one, otherwise they've just been given this horrific treatment for no reason. Join and die philosophy is really effective for them, and matches their grim and single minded approach. If the goal is to preserve the wardens and their strength, it's a hell of a tool.

[DDJ]

TBH, if you think about it, it makes sense for the Wardens to not prioritize curing it. Or at least for the upper echelons of the order. The taint makes them easier to control. It draws a hard line between warden and not warden which fosters loyalty there and detracts from their loyalty to other things like family or country. It makes it so they cannot have a family. It raises the stakes and forces them to see their cause as a high one, otherwise they've just been given this horrific treatment for no reason. Join and die philosophy is really effective for them, and matches their grim and single minded approach. If the goal is to preserve the wardens and their strength, it's a hell of a tool.

 

Which, sadly enough, also generates the blind foolishness of demon armies and such.  To quote "the taint makes them easier to control" which is, in essence a dictatorship.

 

Wowzers.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TBH, if you think about it, it makes sense for the Wardens to not prioritize curing it. Or at least for the upper echelons of the order. The taint makes them easier to control. It draws a hard line between warden and not warden which fosters loyalty there and detracts from their loyalty to other things like family or country. It makes it so they cannot have a family. It raises the stakes and forces them to see their cause as a high one, otherwise they've just been given this horrific treatment for no reason. Join and die philosophy is really effective for them, and matches their grim and single minded approach. If the goal is to preserve the wardens and their strength, it's a hell of a tool.

... the creepy part is that that does make sense.

[ModernAcademic]

Mechanisms of control are abundant in a democracy. They're just hidden in plain sight.

[Commander Felos]

Because the warden would be pissed off. 

[German Soldier]

TBH, if you think about it, it makes sense for the Wardens to not prioritize curing it. Or at least for the upper echelons of the order. The taint makes them easier to control. It draws a hard line between warden and not warden which fosters loyalty there and detracts from their loyalty to other things like family or country. It makes it so they cannot have a family. It raises the stakes and forces them to see their cause as a high one, otherwise they've just been given this horrific treatment for no reason. Join and die philosophy is really effective for them, and matches their grim and single minded approach. If the goal is to preserve the wardens and their strength, it's a hell of a tool.

I made the same reasoning long ago tbh thanks for your post.

anyway there are members of the order who are not tainted.

[DDJ]

I made the same reasoning long ago tbh thanks for your post.

anyway there are members of the order who are not tainted.

 

With respect, I do not agree with all of this.  If they are moving to gain loyalty to the higher cause - setting aside their obvious fascination for raising demon armies, murdering divines etc. - then the joyful revelation that the Wardens betrayed conscripts who did not wish to join doesn't force them to see a higher cause.  It forces them into a mindset of hatred and resentment at what has been stolen from them.  Bioware never addresses it, but those betrayed are not forced into loyalty.  All to often it can result in the basest of human emotions - hatred, anger and the need for revenge.  I would like to know, for example, the suicide rate among Wardens, particularly conscripts.  I would like to know how many of these angry Wardens actually killed those who forced them into it.  I would suggest that Bioware skews the board as it were.  If you act against the Wardens, except in DA 2 when Corypheus first appears, then everyone is appalled.  After my first full play through of DAO, after sifting through the material, my respect for the Wardens was about where it was after DAI.  To their zealous eyes only their cause is important.  Raising demon armies, murdering innocents and all other crimes are just fine as long as their personal cause is not hindered.  Of course, if the breach had engulfed the world, then there would be no more blights.  After all most of humanity would be dead.  So, as a means of control, perhaps.  They would certainly need it and more.  I have read the books and played the games.  Given the blights and all, in my mind anyway the Wardens do not emerge as heroes.  Far from it.  Still, I respect all of your opinions.

[German Soldier]

With respect, I do not agree with all of this.  If they are moving to gain loyalty to the higher cause - setting aside their obvious fascination for raising demon armies, murdering divines etc. - then the joyful revelation that the Wardens betrayed conscripts who did not wish to join doesn't force them to see a higher cause.  It forces them into a mindset of hatred and resentment at what has been stolen from them.  Bioware never addresses it, but those betrayed are not forced into loyalty.  All to often it can result in the basest of human emotions - hatred, anger and the need for revenge.  I would like to know, for example, the suicide rate among Wardens, particularly conscripts.  I would like to know how many of these angry Wardens actually killed those who forced them into it.  I would suggest that Bioware skews the board as it were.  If you act against the Wardens, except in DA 2 when Corypheus first appears, then everyone is appalled.  

What you said make sense in fact there are many GW who resent their life and abandoned the order like Anders for example and even Duncan had severe issues at the beginning.The GW are a prestigious order "in the eyes of the people only"  they should recruit only those who want to join instead to force anyone thus causing these kind of troubles.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

What you said make sense in fact there are many GW who resent their life and abandoned the order like Anders for example and even Duncan had severe issues at the beginning.The GW are a prestigious order "in the eyes of the people only"  they should recruit only those who want to join instead to force anyone thus causing these kind of troubles.

 

The problem with that suggestion is that if you're smart enough to be a useful Warden, you're probably smart enough not to want to be one.

[Xilizhra]

The problem with that suggestion is that if you're smart enough to be a useful Warden, you're probably smart enough not to want to be one.

Speak for yourself. My Surana was quite happy to be a Grey Warden.

[German Soldier]

The problem with that suggestion is that if you're smart enough to be a useful Warden, you're probably smart enough not to want to be one.

It's an oversimplification.
There are those who join willingly and are good GW(Oghren,Sirgun,Nhataniel ecc) and those who join to evade the law like Daveth.
In short i think that GW deception toward the recruits is detrimental and this new issue in Weisshaupt is probably also related to this problem.

[DDJ]

Speak for yourself. My Surana was quite happy to be a Grey Warden.

 

And that is exactly the point.  Some people may well be honored to be Wardens, but to think all of them are or would be is a stereotype.  Not everyone wants to spend their lives in a constant war.  That comes ultimately from the Viking philosophy, and not all Scandinavians went on Viking raids.  It depends on the individual, and for those forced into it against their will ultimately there is resentment - a resentment that leads to very unpleasant consequences when that individual who never wanted to join realizes that he has in effect been murdered by the Wardens.  For women it would be far worse since the possibility of their capture by the spawn and ultimate transformation into a broodmother making darkspawn.  Oddly considering the number of crimes they have perpetrated and slid on like they are teflon man does nothing to make me like them more.  Sorry, I do respect everyone's opinion on this, but in my mind they emerge as far less than heroes, and considering the demon armies, they may well be far more dangerous than the blights themselves. 

[Xilizhra]

And that is exactly the point.  Some people may well be honored to be Wardens, but to think all of them are or would be is a stereotype.  Not everyone wants to spend their lives in a constant war.  That comes ultimately from the Viking philosophy, and not all Scandinavians went on Viking raids.  It depends on the individual, and for those forced into it against their will ultimately there is resentment - a resentment that leads to very unpleasant consequences when that individual who never wanted to join realizes that he has in effect been murdered by the Wardens.  For women it would be far worse since the possibility of their capture by the spawn and ultimate transformation into a broodmother making darkspawn.  Oddly considering the number of crimes they have perpetrated and slid on like they are teflon man does nothing to make me like them more.  Sorry, I do respect everyone's opinion on this, but in my mind they emerge as far less than heroes, and considering the demon armies, they may well be far more dangerous than the blights themselves. 

Grey Wardens are immune to the taint, they couldn't be made into broodmothers. And the demon army was pretty easy to cut off, especially when compared to the Blights.

[DDJ]

Grey Wardens are immune to the taint, they couldn't be made into broodmothers. And the demon army was pretty easy to cut off, especially when compared to the Blights.

 

With due respect, they are immune to blight diseases.  They are not immune to the darkspawn magic used to transform Laren in DAO.  With due respect, nothing I have seen in the books or the games leads me to the conclusion that female Wardens cannot be made into broodmothers.

 

Still that does raise another interesting point.  Just what does happen to the Warden who is so crippled in battle that he can never fight again?  Do they keep him around until the advent of ghouldom or simply put them down?  I never thought about that until now.  Hmmm.

[veeia]

The problem with that suggestion is that if you're smart enough to be a useful Warden, you're probably smart enough not to want to be one.

 

Eh, maybe in peace, but not in an actual Blight. Someone who is intelligent could easily see value in making those personal sacrifices when there is an immediate threat to the world.  The problem with the Wardens is the space between Blights. They have to keep the knowledge and practices of the Order intact so that when the next one occurs, they are ready for it. It's probably also a good idea to have someone researching if there are ways to prevent it from happening (although again, with outside supervision, because their fear of the taint clouds their judgment there). But when they are given unsupervised power to do basically whatever they want when there is no threat to the world but great threat to them....that's a problem. 

 

And probably one the Warden understands, given that they're researching how to cure the taint.

[Akiza]

The problem with that suggestion is that if you're smart enough to be a useful Warden, you're probably smart enough not to want to be one.

Disagree.

My warden was smart enough to realize that selfishness in a time of blight is not permitted and beside i'm fascinated by the order and their mysteries.

You have to realize that GW have a lot of benefits due to their status(being able to enter in circle towers,being able to ask resources and being respected)these are all things that are beneficial to obtain especially for those criminals who had nothinhg to lose and everything to gain within the GW.Basically you can justify all crimes you commit with the greater cause excuse

 

And that is exactly the point.  Some people may well be honored to be Wardens, but to think all of them are or would be is a stereotype. 

Exactly that if you have some problem with resentment issue towards the GW for DAO that's your own issue not mine.

The only origin who is narratively fit for resentment is the HN.

Also yes i agree on the point that female GW should not be sent in the deep roads when the time of their calling arrives or to fight Darkspawns since they could be kidnapped to create broodmothers,they should fill role of administrators in the order

[Akiza]

 

And probably one the Warden understands, given that they're researching how to cure the taint.

Is not a cure for the calling but something more akin to the anti-joining.

A definitive cure should be able in theory  even to eradicate darkspawns but that's not actually what this anti-joining is about.

[veeia]

Ah, yes, that's a distinction I hadn't thought of. Good point.

[Xilizhra]

With due respect, they are immune to blight diseases.  They are not immune to the darkspawn magic used to transform Laren in DAO.  With due respect, nothing I have seen in the books or the games leads me to the conclusion that female Wardens cannot be made into broodmothers.

 

Still that does raise another interesting point.  Just what does happen to the Warden who is so crippled in battle that he can never fight again?  Do they keep him around until the advent of ghouldom or simply put them down?  I never thought about that until now.  Hmmm.

I'm pretty sure that they are immune to that, as it just involves a combination of the taint and cannibalism. And, more importantly, nothing indicates that they can turn into broodmothers either.

[DDJ]

I'm pretty sure that they are immune to that, as it just involves a combination of the taint and cannibalism. And, more importantly, nothing indicates that they can turn into broodmothers either.

 

I respectfully disagree.  Given the ghouldom of the Warden, the fact that the taint is already in them - put there willfully by the Wardens themselves - and the fact that it involves magic, there really is nothing to prove it either way.  I suspect that it is as grim as I have portrayed it, but I concede that lacking evidence one way or the other, no definitive conclusion can be reached.  The key here is not cannibalism or immunity to blight diseases.  It is the magic, the turning into a darkspawn themselves and the gender of the Warden in question.

[DDJ]

 

Disagree.

My warden was smart enough to realize that selfishness in a time of blight is not permitted and beside i'm fascinated by the order and their mysteries.

You have to realize that GW have a lot of benefits due to their status(being able to enter in circle towers,being able to ask resources and being respected)these are all things that are beneficial to obtain especially for those criminals who had nothinhg to lose and everything to gain within the GW.Basically you can justify all crimes you commit with the greater cause excuse

 

Exactly that if you have some problem with resentment issue towards the GW for DAO that's your own issue not mine.

The only origin who is narratively fit for resentment is the HN.

Also yes i agree on the point that female GW should not be sent in the deep roads when the time of their calling arrives or to fight Darkspawns since they could be kidnapped to create broodmothers,they should fill role of administrators in the order

 

 

I would certainly agree with you about the human noble.  I cannot speak for the dwarves, but the elves also have ample room for resentment.  Try picking the maybe I should try to join the Dalish dialogue sometime and see how Duncan says "I might be able to help you," a promise readily forgotten when he can get what he wants.  Still, I can see your point even if I respectfully disagree.

[DDJ]

Grey Wardens are immune to the taint, they couldn't be made into broodmothers. And the demon army was pretty easy to cut off, especially when compared to the Blights.

 

The demon armies were easy to cut off perhaps, but the point is why should they have had to been cut off at all.  The fact that the Wardens always come back to these insane strategies speaks volumes about them.  I have said many times that I take a dim view of the Wardens as a whole (there are exceptions of course), and if you feel honored to join them via conscription or recruitment, so be it.  The writers surely make it clear that they favor the Wardens no matter what crimes they commit.  I am far less tolerant of crimes without some form of punishment.  That of course is my own dark world view talking.

[Xilizhra]

I respectfully disagree.  Given the ghouldom of the Warden, the fact that the taint is already in them - put there willfully by the Wardens themselves - and the fact that it involves magic, there really is nothing to prove it either way.  I suspect that it is as grim as I have portrayed it, but I concede that lacking evidence one way or the other, no definitive conclusion can be reached.  The key here is not cannibalism or immunity to blight diseases.  It is the magic, the turning into a darkspawn themselves and the gender of the Warden in question.

Basically, since Wardens can't be transformed into ghouls except by time (and even then, it's not complete ghouldom), I don't think they can be transformed into broodmothers either.

[Reznore57]

Basically, since Wardens can't be transformed into ghouls except by time (and even then, it's not complete ghouldom), I don't think they can be transformed into broodmothers either.

 

They might be.

I remember an interview when David Gaider was asked about broodmothers and female wardens going on their callings.

And he replied the writers didn't think about that.

I doubt everything is set in stone when it comes to the blight and its different effects , even the fate of Anders with him being possessed and having the blight was still up in the air.

[Cute Nug]

The demon armies were easy to cut off perhaps, but the point is why should they have had to been cut off at all.  The fact that the Wardens always come back to these insane strategies speaks volumes about them.  I have said many times that I take a dim view of the Wardens as a whole (there are exceptions of course), and if you feel honored to join them via conscription or recruitment, so be it.  The writers surely make it clear that they favor the Wardens no matter what crimes they commit.  I am far less tolerant of crimes without some form of punishment.  That of course is my own dark world view talking.

 

It's not just concern over a history of insane strategies in DAI the southern grey spawn wardens are full tilt insane stupid. They sit slack jawed stupid as an army starts a full siege of their stronghold and they do nothing when obviously fighting a besieging army will destroy or at least cripple by unnecessary battle-loss their supposedly all important demon army. Their actions in going to war at Adamant keep with Orlais and the Inquisition make no sense. They had to be utterly insane like a rabid dog or pathologically stupid to completely ignore a besieging army destroying their supposedly important questionable goal of creating a demon army. Since the game just WTF jumps to killing them, the southern grey spawn apparently didn't even talk to the army that will destroy their greater good stupid demon army.

After the grey spawn are so WTF insane/stupid in DAI it seems unlikely that Bioware could make them interesting again in any future game. They might have had an interesting story for why Weissaupt was useless/absent in DAI when one of the creator darkspawn they had hidden almost destroyed the world but I just don't care anymore about a group they have written as just stupid/insane. It would be like them bringing back Orsino and trying to write him as an interesting character after he went WTF derp in DA2.