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[DDJ]

It's not just concern over a history of insane strategies in DAI the southern grey spawn wardens are full tilt insane stupid. They sit slack jawed stupid as an army starts a full siege of their stronghold and they do nothing when obviously fighting a besieging army will destroy or at least cripple by unnecessary battle-loss their supposedly all important demon army. Their actions in going to war at Adamant keep with Orlais and the Inquisition make no sense. They had to be utterly insane like a rabid dog or pathologically stupid to completely ignore a besieging army destroying their supposedly important questionable goal of creating a demon army. Since the game just WTF jumps to killing them, the southern grey spawn apparently didn't even talk to the army that will destroy their greater good stupid demon army.

After the grey spawn are so WTF insane/stupid in DAI it seems unlikely that Bioware could make them interesting again in any future game. They might have had an interesting story for why Weissaupt was useless/absent in DAI when one of the creator darkspawn they had hidden almost destroyed the world but I just don't care anymore about a group they have written as just stupid/insane. It would be like them bringing back Orsino and trying to write him as an interesting character after he went WTF derp in DA2.

 

I could not have put it better.  We know of at least two demon armies summoned under the "great good."  We know that they were willing to practice human sacrifice for "the greater good."  To them collateral damage - murdering innocents, other Wardens ad infinitum means nothing.  It is all for "the greater good" of course.  What amazes me frankly is that no nation has the intestinal fortitude to punish them, and it is not until the Inquisitor thumps them at Adamant that anything resembling punishment is meted out.  Granted Sophia Dryden did have Ferelden attack her, but that appears to have been a war of succession to the throne.  For the greater good of course.  Worse, Clarel was not controlled by C.  She gave the orders.  Sophia Dryden gave the orders, and this is only two demon armies.  How many others were conjured up?

 

Now the standard defense of all of the Warden crimes is that we need them to stop the blight.  Much as I disliked Loghain, I am wondering if that is truly true or simply the product of a well oiled propaganda machine both within and outside of the Wardens.  Consider the abysmal decision making they have made again and again, strict adult supervision is necessary.  The Inquisition was never a threat like the Wardens are.  Now I do realize that many are honored to be a Warden, just as Bioware wants people to be, and that is fine.  Reading deeper into them however, I am far less than honored.  Actually it frightens me that HoF could become as insane and paranoid as the rest, and an insane HoF given what is inflicted on the Inquisitor would lead to carnage on a grand scale.   

[Nixou]

Reading deeper into them however, I am far less than honored.  Actually it frightens me that HoF could become as insane and paranoid as the rest, and an insane HoF given what is inflicted on the Inquisitor would lead to carnage on a grand scale.   

 

 

That's actually one reason* I wish they brought back the HoF for a couple of hours for those whose worldstate include a Warden who survived Origins: either the HoF was played as a ruthless and/or selfish character, in which case s/he epitomizes everything that's wrong with the order, or, s/he was played as a shining paragon of knightly virtue, in which case, by going AWOL at the worst time, s/he allowed the nasty underbelly of the Order to run unchecked in Southern Thedas.

And so far, nobody has called out a character who regardless the permutations of choices done by the player, deserve way more than the Inquisitor to be put on trial, nor simply mentioned that the "Hero" of Ferelden is hardly heroic.

 

* The other reason being that I want that character to receive a definitive and unambiguous plotline death.

[Ghost Gal]

I could not have put it better.  We know of at least two demon armies summoned under the "great good."  We know that they were willing to practice human sacrifice for "the greater good."  To them collateral damage - murdering innocents, other Wardens ad infinitum means nothing.  It is all for "the greater good" of course.  What amazes me frankly is that no nation has the intestinal fortitude to punish them, and it is not until the Inquisitor thumps them at Adamant that anything resembling punishment is meted out.

 

So because they made a mistake you're going to punish them and hold it over their heads forever instead of trusting that they'll learn from their mistake and do better in the future?

 

Besides, they have been punished for overstepping their bounds before, and it almost got Ferelden swallowed by the Blight.

 

Granted Sophia Dryden did have Ferelden attack her, but that appears to have been a war of succession to the throne.  For the greater good of course.  

 

Yeah. The Grey Wardens pulled a stunt like that in the past, and they answered for it. Sophia Dryden tried to use the Grey Wardens to overthrow a tyrant (and political rival since she was Ferelden nobility, but we'll overlook that), lost, then all Grey Wardens were banished from Ferelden for over 200 years.

 

Only thirty years before the Fifth Blight were they allowed back in Ferelden, but under probation. They were still largely stigmatized in Ferelden since they tried to pull a coup once two hundred years prior, but that didn't stop Ferelden from only letting them back in with small numbers, grudgingly gave up as few people as possible to stop the Blight (partly because Cailan didn't take the threat seriously and thought the few numbers they already had would be more than enough), and you still had idiots like Loghain assuming that because they tried to pull a coup once centuries before they must try to do it again!

 

The thing is, Thedas rarely forgives or forgets. Once a group loses face, it takes centuries to get it back.

 

Just look at the elves: Red Crossing was one small village, yet the entire elven race is still being punished for it over seven hundred years later. (In-universe the Chantry and most humans use Red Crossing to justify demonizing and subjugating the elves, even though you'd think after seven hundred years they've repaid their debts to society already.) Sophia Dryden and the Grey Wardens tried to spring a coup once, and by DAO they're still being reminded of it two hundred years later.

 

I don't personally feel comfortable banishing Grey Wardens from Orlais in DAI because I know all of Thedas is going to cling to that stigma for centuries to come. And when the next Archdemon awakens, guess where it's going to attack? Did you guess the largest area with the least amount of Grey Warden presence, and where there's still a huge stigma against them, where the local culture actively impedes their ability to do what they need to stop the Blight? Very good. I'm personally gonna nip the stigma in the bud so when the next Blight strikes, the Grey Wardens won't be impeded from doing their job the way they were in Ferelden in DAO.

 

(Of course, since all worldstates are streamlined for the next game, it probably won't make a difference in the long run whether you banished them or not.)

[DDJ]

So because they made a mistake you're going to punish them and hold it over their heads forever instead of trusting that they'll learn from their mistake and do better in the future?

 

Besides, they have been punished for overstepping their bounds before, and it almost got Ferelden swallowed by the Blight.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. The Grey Wardens pulled a stunt like that in the past, and they answered for it. Sophia Dryden tried to use the Grey Wardens to overthrow a tyrant (and political rival since she was Ferelden nobility, but we'll overlook that), lost, then all Grey Wardens were banished from Ferelden for over 200 years.

 

Only thirty years before the Fifth Blight were they allowed back in Ferelden, but under probation. They were still largely stigmatized in Ferelden since they tried to pull a coup once two hundred years prior, but that didn't stop Ferelden from only letting them back in with small numbers, grudgingly gave up as few people as possible to stop the Blight (partly because Cailan didn't take the threat seriously and thought the few numbers they already had would be more than enough), and you still had idiots like Loghain assuming that because they tried to pull a coup once centuries before they must try to do it again!

 

The thing is, Thedas rarely forgives or forgets. Once a group loses face, it takes centuries to get it back.

 

Just look at the elves: Red Crossing was one small village, yet the entire elven race is still being punished for it over seven hundred years later. (In-universe the Chantry and most humans use Red Crossing to justify demonizing and subjugating the elves, even though you'd think after seven hundred years they've repaid their debts to society already.) Sophia Dryden and the Grey Wardens tried to spring a coup once, and by DAO they're still being reminded of it two hundred years later.

 

I don't personally feel comfortable banishing Grey Wardens from Orlais in DAI because I know all of Thedas is going to cling to that stigma for centuries to come. And when the next Archdemon awakens, guess where it's going to attack? Did you guess the largest area with the least amount of Grey Warden presence, and where there's still a huge stigma against them, where the local culture actively impedes their ability to do what they need to stop the Blight? Very good. I'm personally gonna nip the stigma in the bud so when the next Blight strikes, the Grey Wardens won't be impeded from doing their job the way they were in Ferelden in DAO.

 

(Of course, since all worldstates are streamlined for the next game, it probably won't make a difference in the long run whether you banished them or not.)

 

Interesting points.  Mistakes I can and do forgive, but the murder of hundred of innocents and the repeated crime of summoning a demon army are slightly greater than oops, I picked up the wrong sword.

 

I think your last point is extremely valid.  I am beginning to wonder just what decisions on our (player) part actually make a difference to anything but the dialogue.  We will see I suppose.  By the by, I am still booting them.  They can make amends by cleaning up their act if they can.  

[DDJ]

 

That's actually one reason* I wish they brought back the HoF for a couple of hours for those whose worldstate include a Warden who survived Origins: either the HoF was played as a ruthless and/or selfish character, in which case s/he epitomizes everything that's wrong with the order, or, s/he was played as a shining paragon of knightly virtue, in which case, by going AWOL at the worst time, s/he allowed the nasty underbelly of the Order to run unchecked in Southern Thedas.

And so far, nobody has called out a character who regardless the permutations of choices done by the player, deserve way more than the Inquisitor to be put on trial, nor simply mentioned that the "Hero" of Ferelden is hardly heroic.

 

* The other reason being that I want that character to receive a definitive and unambiguous plotline death.

 

 

I concur that HoF should return.  If they can bring in Hawke, they can bring in HoF.  Her / his search for a cure (assuming survival of DAO which is silly since you can put him / her in Witch Hunt dead or not).  I dislike dangling plot strings, and right now the plot arc has more dangles than I wish.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Interesting points. Mistakes I can and do forgive, but the murder of hundred of innocents and the repeated crime of summoning a demon army are slightly greater than oops, I picked up the wrong sword.

I think your last point is extremely valid. I am beginning to wonder just what decisions on our (player) part actually make a difference to anything but the dialogue. We will see I suppose. By the by, I am still booting them. They can make amends by cleaning up their act if they can.

Except we see that exiling the wardens gets people killed. If you keep the wardens, they save the town attacked by dark spawn whereas if you exile them, the town is already destroyed.

Already your choice to exile the wardens got an entire town killed. Who knows how many more people will die because you exiled them

[Cyberstrike nTo]

If it's not in game it didn't happen.

 

I don't care if Bioware considers then canon or not, the vast majority of players haven't read them.

 

Actually events of any novel (or any other media for that matter) can be considered canon, especially when the events they are about are directly referenced in game by various characters and it doesn't matter if the majority of players read (or watch/listen) about them or not. 

[DDJ]

Except we see that exiling the wardens gets people killed. If you keep the wardens, they save the town attacked by dark spawn whereas if you exile them, the town is already destroyed.

Already your choice to exile the wardens got an entire town killed. Who knows how many more people will die because you exiled them

 

That's a fair point.  Of course none of it would have happened had the Wardens not been involved in the murder of the Divine or tried to use C as a weapon of war as per the DA 2 add on.  If they are kept who knows how many hundreds of others will be killed because once against monstrous crimes are not punished.  Once again Bioware writes it so one has to like the Wardens.  It is less than appealing but I do respect your view.

[ThePhoenixKing]

That's a fair point.  Of course none of it would have happened had the Wardens not been involved in the murder of the Divine or tried to use C as a weapon of war as per the DA 2 add on.  If they are kept who knows how many hundreds of others will be killed because once against monstrous crimes are not punished.  Once again Bioware writes it so one has to like the Wardens.  It is less than appealing but I do respect your view.

 

Again, I don't see how the Wardens can be blamed for the Divine's death: they were mind-controlled. Seriously, how hard is that to understand?

[German Soldier]

Again, I don't see how the Wardens can be blamed for the Divine's death: they were mind-controlled. Seriously, how hard is that to understand?

The point is that it was dear Janeka to free Corypheus......because she wanted him as a weapon...

I'm not judging Larius because he was a ghoul and not more a GW so he was unable of any rational thinking..

[Nixou]

Her / his search for a cure (assuming survival of DAO which is silly since you can put him / her in Witch Hunt dead or not).  I dislike dangling plot strings, and right now the plot arc has more dangles than I wish.

 

 

So do I.

The thing is, I suspect the cure quest was the result of the writers hitting panic mode during the planning stage and not thinking things through, that something like

 

Writer One: Okay, so we'll put the first act of the game mostly in Ferelden to placate Origins' fans who didn't like Dragon Age 2's conclusion.

Writer Two: Wait a minute: coming back to Ferelden means coming back to the Warden's home turf. And the Warden can survive Origins, ****, we even made a whole expansion showing the how Commander of the Grey became one of Ferelden's most powerful feudal lords.

Writer Three: Okay! Anyone's willing to retool the script to allow for a appropriately fan-servicy cutscenes and dialogue involving the Warden?

 

Crickets are heard singing (shut up! Edmonton lies below the 55th parallel: crickets can live here)

 

Writer One: huuuuuh, I'm already tasked with scripting Hawke and Morrigan

Writer Two: And I got Alistair/Loghain/Stroud to take care of

Writer Three: come on! Nobody wants to take a hit for the team?

 

Crickets again, then

 

Writer Two: Hey! I've got an idea: we'll say that the Warden is adventuring beyond the limits of Thedas' map on some vital wardeny business, I don't know, finding griffon eggs...

Writer One: Already done

Writer Two: or curing the Blight or something like that. Anyway, an excuse to keep the Warden offscreen for the whole game's duration.

Writer Three: Great! We'll figure out how to stitch it back to the rest of the story later. Now, about Solas' sex life....

 

 

happened, and the writers have yet to figure out how to write themselves out of the corner they put themselves in.

[ThePhoenixKing]

The point is that it was dear Janeka to free Corypheus......because she wanted him as a weapon...

I'm not judging Larius because he was a ghoul and not more a GW so he was unable of any rational thinking..

 

Even then, she was being influenced. That's why the Wardens ultimately sealed up and largely abandoned Cory's prison; even in stasis, he could subconsciously warp their minds. And I don't see why an organization that has saved Thedas multiple times should be condemned for the actions of someone not in her right mind.

[robertthebard]

Because the warden would be pissed off.

I ain't afraid of no ghost.

[DDJ]

Not really. There are two things that have to be taken into account: legality and identity.

 

I've already explained my position about legality, which makes going back to their old lives legally impossible (think of draft-dodgers and defectors in the military, it's the same case). That brings us to the second point: identity.

 

After severing ties with their "origins", being in the Grey Wardens construct a new identity for their recruits. They have a clear goal, a well-established hierarchy which nevertheless can allow some flexibility and freedom, and they don't discriminate. They don't care if you are a man or a woman, a mage or an ex-Templar, an elf or a dwarf, a criminal or a paragon of virtue, a devout Andrastian or a pagan. Being a Grey Warden supersedes it all and in some cases it might be an improvement over their old lives. That balances the initial anger of some disgruntled recruits.

 

I am not sure that it would mitigate any anger although it is a well reasoned response.  It is not the same case as defectors or draft dodgers in the military.  The Wardens purposely poison each and every recruit.  So, if you are fortunate enough to survive, which many will not, and to avoid crippling injuries that prevent you from fighting or going to the deep roads, your reward for years of service is death.  No retiring although if you are a female you may be unfortunate enough to be turned into a broodmother so you can finally have little spawn of your own.  I have said it before and will say it again.  I know war and people.  People generally do not react well when they learn they have been deceived and, frankly, murdered.  Being murdered in the name of the greater good does not supercede anything, and isn't it up to the individual rather than the Wardens to decide what an improvement over their previous life is?

 

And while we are on the topic.  What do you think happens to a Warden who loses his legs in battle and survives?  Well, we can't have them turning into ghouls publicly, so my guess is that the Wardens put them out of the way.  Brain damaged and unable to fight?  Put them out of the way.  We can theorize many things, but the Wardens zealously keep their secrets.  After all a recruiting poster saying "You too can summon demon armies (or be one of the human sacrifices) is not going to be printed.  Nor are women going to swarm to the Wardens with a "You too can be a broodmother" slogan.  I have tried thinking about this in a lot of different ways, but it still comes down to the old 'do it my way or you get killed philosophy' they embrace.  I did try not exiling them a couple of times but frankly the disrespect for the Divine and the hundreds who died at the Temple of Sacred Ashes was too much.  

 

This greater good crap that Duncan espouses appears to be his rationale.  I personally enjoy playing a Warden who believes that executing murderers is for the greater good.  So, since I always believed that Jory's death was unnecessary and murderous, shouldn't my warden have the right to execute Duncan for the greater good as my Warden sees it?  That frankly is why I want Alastair to be king at the end of DAO.  First, he does not like Loghain's daughter, and since he is one of the people who disapproves anytime I make an anti Warden comment, it is appropriate.  Also, he will be king and both the madness and ghouldom will be known to many - it can't be hidden with such a visible figure.  So secrets of the Wardens are exposed.    That is my dark world view, and as I have weighted the evidence as BioWare writes it, it still comes down to they are simply a necessary evil - perhaps - that is totally out of control and apparently has a good propaganda agent.

 

Naturally I respect the views of those who disagree, but I just can't make myself think fondly of the Wardens.  

[DementedSheep]

Because Blights, 

 

Although give that corypheus can control/ posses them you would think there would be an option to tell them to ****** off until he is dealt with because they are a liablity in this fight, rather than a permanent exile as a punishment.  

 

edit: opps didn't check date 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't personally feel comfortable banishing Grey Wardens from Orlais in DAI because I know all of Thedas is going to cling to that stigma for centuries to come. And when the next Archdemon awakens, guess where it's going to attack? Did you guess the largest area with the least amount of Grey Warden presence, and where there's still a huge stigma against them, where the local culture actively impedes their ability to do what they need to stop the Blight? Very good. I'm personally gonna nip the stigma in the bud so when the next Blight strikes, the Grey Wardens won't be impeded from doing their job the way they were in Ferelden in DAO.

There is speculation that there is an Archdemon buried under the Western Approach. If so, then considering the darkspawn presence there one wonders how far away the Sixth Blight could possibly be. So it might be that the Sixth Blight starts in Orlais regardless of our choice, and that all we get to choose is whether or not there are Wardens there to fight it.

[phoray]

Exile doesn't punish the Wardens. They just show up at Weisshaupt with a smack on the wrist and go about their business. It punishes the Orlesian people of the future. While there is Blight, no one is going to actually turn on them in any serious way. Once all the archdemons are DEAD, the reactions of the remaining Dark Spawn will decide the Wardens fate.

[Zero]

In my case is just because Blights. Despite Darkspawn are not active on the surface, that doesn't mean a Blight isn't a potential threat any time soon. Also, dwarves have few allies in their eternal battle against Darkspawn, that's happening every time even if the Inquisitor isn't aware of that (and the Descend proves it). Losing the Wardens is leaving an open way for Darkspawn to destroy everything. Just because Solas says "Wardens are evulz" doesn't make them evil. They're persons, and persons make mistakes. And Solas is even more dangerous than the Wardens (and the Wardens being controlled by Corypheus and killing the Divine is in part his fault), if we go that way.

 

We know Ferelden exiled the Wardens before. And, if not for luck only, Ferelden would have been destroyed because of that. Ferelden was saved because, by chance, Maric re-admitted the Wardens just a few years before the Fifth Blight; coincidentally Duncan was there to save the HoF from certain death; the HoF and potentially Loghain surviving their joinings was another strike of luck. Flemeth aiding the HoF and Alistair twice (with the treaties and saving their lives in Ostagar) was another strike of luck (and she did it because someone had to stop the Blight). Riordan surviving Howe's torture was another strike of luck... among other lucky things the HoF's group had to live in order for Ferelden to be saved.

 

Exiling the southern Wardens in Inquisition is repeating a mistake that could cost the existence of Orlais and other nations in the future (or making the survival of those nations depend again on luck only).

[DDJ]

There is speculation that there is an Archdemon buried under the Western Approach. If so, then considering the darkspawn presence there one wonders how far away the Sixth Blight could possibly be. So it might be that the Sixth Blight starts in Orlais regardless of our choice, and that all we get to choose is whether or not there are Wardens there to fight it.

 

That is a very good point.  I have pondered the question and do wish that BioWare had put a time frame on the codex.  Still and all, I am banishing the group who were involved in the Divine's murder and raising demon armies.  I am not banishing all Wardens from Orlais - just this bunch.

 

I think you are right about an Archdemon there by the by, but I doubt BioWare is going to cough up another Blight in the foreseeable future.  They tend to be centuries apart.  Good thoughts.  

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I don't see a reason to exile the Wardens over any other group I accepted help from, really. The only concern is the mind control issue, but it seemed that was mostly lost on a wider scale by breaking the connection with the Nightmare. Corypheus, from what I could tell, could only take control of Wardens in close contact. They probably weren't the best front lines troops to fight Corypheus, but it seemed like every other place I went was having darkspawn bubbling up from the Deep Roads, so I had plenty of need for them to keep that under control while I dealt with the Breach, even without considering a Blight could come at any time. As for what they did, you always take the mage or the red templars and they're not even slightly better. The Orlesian leadership alliance isn't much more morally sound. Celene, Briala and Gaspard are all fairly crappy people. 

 

Inquisition was a game where you started out with basically everyone having already been influenced and corrupted by Corypheus and his loyalists and Thedas is a place where most people are morally grey, anyway. Everywhere you went, you met fairly awful people that were either corrupted or just started out questionable. I was happy to take on groups like the Wardens and the Blades of Hessarian. I wanted to unite people as much as possible behind putting the world back together and I couldn't be overly choosey. It seemed like the only decidedly "good" people I remember meeting now were Keeper Hawen's clan, my clan in the War Table missions, and the Stone-Bear Hold during the Avvar DLC. If I turned down help from every questionable source I came across, we would have definitely been screwed.

[Tidus]

My take is simple..The more I can weaken Corypheus the better. I stole his mages,killed red Templars,foil his plot for Orlais,took his wardens.beat his two main lackeys beat back the Darkspawn,stopped his supply of red lyrium.. Yeah, he must really love my Inquisitor.

[In Exile]

Even then, she was being influenced. That's why the Wardens ultimately sealed up and largely abandoned Cory's prison; even in stasis, he could subconsciously warp their minds. And I don't see why an organization that has saved Thedas multiple times should be condemned for the actions of someone not in her right mind.

 

They should be condemned for repeatedly dooming Thedas through their idiocy, which they've done repeatedly in every game we've seen. To kill an archdemon, we at least need a person who ingests the magically altered blight through the Joining. That doesn't mean we need the organization, which is seemingly dedicated to suicide. They do it at Ostagar, they do it generally with their obsessive need to hide everything useful about the blight, and they definitely do it in DA:I.

 

At this point, I'm unsure whether it's just bad writing or intentional. 

[Zero]

I guess is bad writing. The Wardens in DA 2 and DA:I contradict themselves from what we are told in DA:O, that means they retconned some stuff between games. And isn't as if the Wardens were the only bad organization of Thedas, or the worst of all. There are even worst organizations, like the Chantry, that destroy countries, oppress people, and alter the historical records just to maintain its power across the nations.

 

And if you save them in Orlais, the southern Wardens split from the main order and became an independent, better group according to the epilogue (yet, knowing BW, they can easily ignore this, like they have been doing with our choices since DA:O and make the Wardens the bad guys again because reasons).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That is a very good point.  I have pondered the question and do wish that BioWare had put a time frame on the codex.  Still and all, I am banishing the group who were involved in the Divine's murder and raising demon armies.  I am not banishing all Wardens from Orlais - just this bunch.

Aren't you? I got the impression that all of the Wardens in Ferelden and Orlais were in that bunch. (Well, the ones that hadn't been hunted down anyway.)

 

 

I think you are right about an Archdemon there by the by, but I doubt BioWare is going to cough up another Blight in the foreseeable future.  They tend to be centuries apart.  Good thoughts.  

Thanks.

 

While I agree that there probably won't be another Blight in the near future, it's only because I doubt Bioware would do that until at least DA6 given how fresh the Fifth Blight is in gamers' memories. That it usually takes centuries between Blights doesn't mean it will again; in fact apart from the metagame consideration that Bioware probably won't make another Blight-based-game soon if they ever do so again we have no reason to believe the Old God buried under the Approach won't get Tainted five minutes after Solas dies. If there is an Old God there, then theoretically it could happen at any time, since Blights only have two ingredients and we know the other one is there. It might even be that the only reason it hasn't happened already was that the darkspawn were distracted by Urthemiel rising and were called away from digging out the Old God under the Approach. (Though of course all of this assumes that there is one, which I don't know that we even have enough to strongly suspect.)

[Zero]

All Wardens in Orlais, Ferelden and seeing Stroud involved, likely the Free Marches as well. You'll leave half Thedas without means to defend herself against a blight if you exile the Wardens in Adamant.