All Wardens in Orlais, Ferelden and seeing Stroud involved, likely the Free Marches as well. You'll leave half Thedas without means to defend herself against a blight if you exile the Wardens in Adamant.
Stroud's codex establishes him as an Orlesian, and being seen in the Free Marches doesn't necessarily mean he's stationed there since we see can potentially meet Warden Alistair there too. So while I agree with the greater point, the Free Marches probably aren't without Wardens.
I just finished a playthrough to that fateful moment when it is time to exile the Wardens or not (actually to the point where I could save before it occurs) and I thought once more of this discussion thread. So I thought of the positives. Grey Wardens can stop Blights which seem in the early years to have happened at around two hundred year (2 ages) intervals. The 5th blight is four ages after the 4th. Of course the 5th Blight can end without a Warden dying, and apparently it does since a. you can bring the Warden back in Awakening and b he / she is said to "move on" at the end of Awakening which I presume means look for a cure. So HoF remains apparently abandons the Wardens as soon as possible after the Blight. Considering their drink or die philosophy that indicates, as I have said before, that HoF in a logical universe is in danger from the Wardens themselves. After all they do not want their secrets revealed.
Then I thought about Jory's wife and child who will never know how he died. I also considered Arl Howe who hated the Wardens because his father left them and vanished (probably died in the joining) but the Wardens never bother to inform the next of kin. I considered which group historically raises demon armies - the Wardens - the Corypheus related one being the most serious due to the luck of Avernus being there at Soldier's Peak. I considered that the Wardens know that women wardens can become broodmothers (Duncan surely knew) and still recruit / conscript them for that ever self serving greater good regardless. I thought about the books and how the Warden Duncan killed was grateful for a clean death. I considered the fact that once Fiona was cured since they could not find out how they returned her to a circle. Likely the only reason she survived was the fact that she was Alastair's mother and a potential link to control him. They don't seek outside help to try and find the cure. I thought about all the Wardens in DAI and how exactly one rises above the rest (Or apparently 2 if HoF has abandoned them eight years earlier.). I thought about the Codex Grey Warden Letters where, if you allow Avernus to pursue his research without restriction he is obtaining "shipments" from the new Warden Commander in Ferelden, and since he experimented on people - i.e. Wardens - the shipments are likely more sacrificial Wardens. I considered that the Blight can be stopped without a Warden sacrifice and the fact that they are hunting power much like the Inquisition took power to stop C. Then I thought about that speech of Duncan's where he insists sacrifice is required. Sacrifice involves giving of one's own free will knowing the consequences of your actions (which of course you don't until the end of DAO) while sacrificed is being forcibly put on the altar without free will. So when Duncan speaks of Sacrifice he is talking about himself sacrificing three other lives for what he believes is the greater good. Under that same philosophy if my HoF believes that the greater good involves executing murderers, the option should have been there to attack Duncan since apparently everyone gets to choose for themselves. I thought on this and came to a decision regarding future Blights. I do not care about the potential. What I do care about is the amoral / immoral behavior of the Wardens and how they tried to destroy the world at least twice with Demon armies. If they are truly anti-Blight as they claim, they will come back to Orlais even if I banish them. After all, the inquisitor is not the ruler of Orlais or Ferelden. What does concern me is the fact that they never learn their lesson and they skate on every horrendous crime they commit. Further, exiling this batch of madmen does not mean all Wardens - simply this batch. I also thought about their claims to neutrality whenever it suits them). So at the end of it, once again they head off into exile and Hawke escapes the Fade.
I have wondered at why Hawke heads off to the Grey Warden HQ and it dawned on me that Hawke actually does not trust the Wardens to give the First Warden an accurate account of what happened. At least I believe so.
I always respect all of your opinions, but the more I think on the Wardens the far less I like them much less respect them based strictly on BioWare's own writings.
I don't exile the wardens.. They was under mind control-warden hands up! Wardens Hands down! and they was fighting against the ritual at Adamant. That was their saving grace.
Tell me DDJ, who is going to fight Darkspawn when the Wardens aren't around?
Also, before you say "oh, the wardens will just be let in during a blight", read the newspaper by the stairs in the codex after exiling the Wardens. You literally say to the world that the Wardens tried to help a darkspawn magister raise a demon army to try and conquer Thedas. Given how mistrustful and petty the people of Thedas are especially as shown in Last Flight, do you honestly believe that the people of Thedas will just forget that?
Considering you cover up that information if you ally with the wardens, it seems the people would never forgive the Wardens and thus, the darkspawn keep killing.
a. you can bring the Warden back in Awakening
Its already stated that if you "brought back" the HoF back the game either assume you did the Dark Ritual or take the "No Compromise" route (killed the other Warden).
Also, in DAI you cannot "bring back" a death Warden who did the US. New game overrides old games (sadly, in some instances).
So HoF remains apparently abandons the Wardens as soon as possible after the Blight. Considering their drink or die philosophy that indicates, as I have said before, that HoF in a logical universe is in danger from the Wardens themselves. After all they do not want their secrets revealed.
Dunno why, as in DA2 it is revealed the HoF and the First Warden in Weishaupt are working together to benefit all the Order from Avernus' research.
I thought about the Codex Grey Warden Letters where, if you allow Avernus to pursue his research without restriction he is obtaining "shipments" from the new Warden Commander in Ferelden, and since he experimented on people - i.e. Wardens - the shipments are likely more sacrificial Wardens
That mission only appears if you have spared Avernus and allowed him to do the research (ethically or not). That Warden-Commander of Ferelden signing the letters? Is the HoF, depending on player's choices, as that mission isn't obtained if you did the US or took any of the pre-made save states (that means this only happens in world states were the HoF deliberately allowed Avernus to do that).
I considered that the Wardens know that women wardens can become broodmothers (Duncan surely knew) and still recruit / conscript them for that ever self serving greater good regardless.
a. Women doesn't became automatically into broodmothers, as Utha proof (a female dwarf that has been ghoulified for around 21 years by the events of Awakening). To be converted into broodmothers a woman must be survive a process not all ghouls survive, not by virtue of only being tainted. And also, Word of God the Wardens didn't knew how the broodmothers were created until the HoF and Alistair discovered it in the game (according to this). So, Duncan didn't knew about that.
b. Yeah, self-serving. Since the land can heal itself from a Blight... Oh, wait. It cannot.
I considered that the Blight can be stopped without a Warden sacrifice and the fact that they are hunting power much like the Inquisition took power to stop
Well, good luck with that. Even Flemythal saved Alistair's and the HoF's hides because "is the job of the Grey Wardens to stop the Blight". If she, who was there and saw how bad became Andruil because her "armor of Void", thinks that only Grey Wardens can stop the Blight... then, I bet on her (and I trust her in this matter more than in Racist Eggman).
The Wardens of my canon state remains in the south, ready to stop any possible Blight and other darkspawn stuff at any time. And I don't regret that choice because the epilogue reveals that, if they are allowed to join the Inquisition, they learn from their mistakes and became a better order.
Tell me DDJ, who is going to fight Darkspawn when the Wardens aren't around?
Also, before you say "oh, the wardens will just be let in during a blight", read the newspaper by the stairs in the codex after exiling the Wardens. You literally say to the world that the Wardens tried to help a darkspawn magister raise a demon army to try and conquer Thedas. Given how mistrustful and petty the people of Thedas are especially as shown in Last Flight, do you honestly believe that the people of Thedas will just forget that?
Considering you cover up that information if you ally with the wardens, it seems the people would never forgive the Wardens and thus, the darkspawn keep killing.
If I read the first part right, you are saying only the Wardens fight the Darkspawn? Interesting since lots of people seem to fight them during all three games.
Nor would I say just let them in during a Blight. I would say that a new batch, those who are not involved in any way with the ones who helped by commission or omission of the Divine. The Divine, lest we forget, is a well loved figure across Thedas. So there is a political ramification, not to mention the moral ones, of not punishing the Wardens involved. Keep in mind too that the Inquisitor is not the ruler of Orlais or Ferelden. So any exile can easily be overturned. The rhetorical question is why should those Wardens be forgiven? Exactly one stood up to Clarel - one. By either omission or commission the the entire group was involved, not only those who were controlled by C.
I do not see anywhere in the game where any information is covered up. Too many people saw it in the Fade. And why would one cover it up anyway?
Again it comes down to personal choices. As I look at the Wardens you are faced with "we live to stop the Blight no matter what heinous crimes are committed by us." Does it really matter how the world is destroyed? After all, those who are fighting the Blight (so they say) are the very ones who recklessly summon demon armies who can also destroy the world. Of course since the Wardens are not sworn to stop demon armies, at least they will have fulfilled their obligation to defend the land from the Blight.
I am sorry, and while I respect your opinion, my conscience does not permit that dangerous and foolish of a group to remain.
Its already stated that if you "brought back" the HoF back the game either assume you did the Dark Ritual or take the "No Compromise" route (killed the other Warden).
Also, in DAI you cannot "bring back" a death Warden who did the US. New game overrides old games (sadly, in some instances).
Dunno why, as in DA2 it is revealed the HoF and the First Warden in Weishaupt are working together to benefit all the Order from Avernus' research.
That mission only appears if you have spared Avernus and allowed him to do the research (ethically or not). That Warden-Commander of Ferelden signing the letters? Is the HoF, depending on player's choices, as that mission isn't obtained if you did the US or took any of the pre-made save states (that means this only happens in world states were the HoF deliberately allowed Avernus to do that).
a. Women doesn't became automatically into broodmothers, as Utha proof (a female dwarf that has been ghoulified for around 21 years by the events of Awakening). To be converted into broodmothers a woman must be survive a process not all ghouls survive, not by virtue of only being tainted. And also, Word of God the Wardens didn't knew how the broodmothers were created until the HoF and Alistair discovered it in the game (according to this). So, Duncan didn't knew about that.
b. Yeah, self-serving. Since the land can heal itself from a Blight... Oh, wait. It cannot.
Well, good luck with that. Even Flemythal saved Alistair's and the HoF's hides because "is the job of the Grey Wardens to stop the Blight". If she, who was there and saw how bad became Andruil because her "armor of Void", thinks that only Grey Wardens can stop the Blight... then, I bet on her (and I trust her in this matter more than in Racist Eggman).
The Wardens of my canon state remains in the south, ready to stop any possible Blight and other darkspawn stuff at any time. And I don't regret that choice because the epilogue reveals that, if they are allowed to join the Inquisition, they learn from their mistakes and became a better order.
I respect your opinion but respectfully disagree with it.
Exactly one stood up to Clarel - one. By either omission or commission the the entire group was involved, not only those who were controlled by C.
Actually, all of them except for the controlled ones did eventually. Not to mention that their actions in Inquisition weren't really a crime against anyone except themselves (I would say the same is true for the ones fighting Arland, as the only problem was that the demons turned against Avernus).
Actually, all of them except for the controlled ones did eventually. Not to mention that their actions in Inquisition weren't really a crime against anyone except themselves (I would say the same is true for the ones fighting Arland, as the only problem was that the demons turned against Avernus).
True enough, but that was after she realized she had been used and ordered them to aid the Inquisitor. I definitely see your point, as I hope you see mine. I just cannot bring myself to trust them when they are involved in the slaughter of so many innocent lives.
True enough, but that was after she realized she had been used and ordered them to aid the Inquisitor. I definitely see your point, as I hope you see mine. I just cannot bring myself to trust them when they are involved in the slaughter of so many innocent lives.
What innocent lives did they slaughter?
They were involved in the massacre, indirectly or directly, of the Divine and everyone killed at the Temple of Sacred Ashes. Because of their involvement, although C fails at the Temple, other rifts were openned. Demons came through and people died who should not have. The best one can say for the Wardens is that they supported it rather than putting Clarel under lock and key. The only one who does rise above it is Stroud.
Keep the bastards close so you can keep an eye on them.
They were involved in the massacre, indirectly or directly, of the Divine and everyone killed at the Temple of Sacred Ashes. Because of their involvement, although C fails at the Temple, other rifts were openned. Demons came through and people died who should not have. The best one can say for the Wardens is that they supported it rather than putting Clarel under lock and key. The only one who does rise above it is Stroud.
Did you forget the part where those warden mages were brainwashed and thus had no control over their actions. Plus, even if you still blame the Wardens for making the decision, there's a thing called hindsight.
It's easy to say what should have been long after the decision has been made but in the heat of a moment, did that decision really seem so bad?
Plus, I noticed you didn't respond to who would fight darkspawn after the wardens are exiled.
Plus, I noticed you didn't respond to who would fight darkspawn after the wardens are exiled.
I think he said that he intended to create a new batch. How he intends to do that without the help of the current bunch I'm not sure.
I think he said that he intended to create a new batch. How he intends to do that without the help of the current bunch I'm not sure.
Did you forget the part where those warden mages were brainwashed and thus had no control over their actions. Plus, even if you still blame the Wardens for making the decision, there's a thing called hindsight.
It's easy to say what should have been long after the decision has been made but in the heat of a moment, did that decision really seem so bad?
Plus, I noticed you didn't respond to who would fight darkspawn after the wardens are exiled.
Not all of the Wardens were brainwashed. They simply went along with a plan where the world could have been destroyed by something other than a blight.
I think he said that he intended to create a new batch. How he intends to do that without the help of the current bunch I'm not sure.
What was actually said was the murderers were exiled. If the First Warden wants to send replacements for the Divine's murderers, fine.
I am curious though about a thought floating that only Grey Wardens fight Darkspawn. I do not recall that Varric, Leliana, Morrigan Wynne, Zevran ad infinitum were Wardens. The Wardens are not the only ones who fight the Darkspawn. They are simply the only ones who fight them and use the greater good to justify some very heinous crimes.
What was actually said was the murderers were exiled. If the First Warden wants to send replacements for the Divine's murderers, fine.
That's a good idea, but I don't think that's what the writers meant to suggest. I don't remember anything in the epilogue that suggests the Wardens have sent replacements or believe they're welcome to do so if an Archdemon rises in the area you removed them from. And the banish Wardens scene didn't seem to have any qualifiers like "you can come back later" or "any Wardens who aren't you are acceptable" involved.
I am curious though about a thought floating that only Grey Wardens fight Darkspawn. I do not recall that Varric, Leliana, Morrigan Wynne, Zevran ad infinitum were Wardens. The Wardens are not the only ones who fight the Darkspawn. They are simply the only ones who fight them and use the greater good to justify some very heinous crimes.
I could swear that's been covered, but...
The thing is that nobody's arguing it's impossible for anyone but a Warden to fight darkspawn. In fact they usually do so with an army of non-Wardens beside them. What we are arguing is that between the resistance to the Taint, the ability to sense the darkspawn, and the fact that there's no way to kill an Archdemon without them they're necessary during the Blights and uniquely useful at other times.
I don't think that's an option given by the game, though. The game seems to either have us remove the Order from our sphere of influence entirely, or work with the remainder of Clarel's command.
I could swear that's been covered, but...
The thing is that nobody's arguing it's impossible for anyone but a Warden to fight darkspawn. In fact they usually do so with an army of non-Wardens beside them. What we are arguing is that between the resistance to the Taint, the ability to sense the darkspawn, and the fact that there's no way to kill an Archdemon without them they're necessary during the Blights and uniquely useful at other times.
I concur to both. However, no organization however needed they may be can use that need to justify mass murder and a number of other crimes. You are right that the game does not give that option, but it does not preclude it either. I sincerely respect your beliefs and points, and if you feel that way you should keep them. From what I have seen in the books and games however they have become as corrupted as the Seekers, Templars and others. They need a severe check, and the idea that all the nations of the world who loved the Divine will just forget their role in it makes no sense to me. Punish the guilty and spare the innocent - as if BioWare ever gives us that option.
What was actually said was the murderers were exiled. If the First Warden wants to send replacements for the Divine's murderers, fine.
I am curious though about a thought floating that only Grey Wardens fight Darkspawn. I do not recall that Varric, Leliana, Morrigan Wynne, Zevran ad infinitum were Wardens. The Wardens are not the only ones who fight the Darkspawn. They are simply the only ones who fight them and use the greater good to justify some very heinous crimes.
If you've played the game, you already know that the south of Thedas (all the southern region, that includes Ferelden and the lands west to Orlais) is left with no Wardens at all (this is revealed in the Epilogue). Then, due to their bad reputation, earned or not, wardens will abandon the lands of northern Thedas as well. This decision will leave Thedas without Wardens, even without those who didn't were involved with the death of the Divine (The northern Wardens).
As for the people who fights the Darkspawn? Yeah, is demonstrated that other people can fight Darkspawn as well, but beyond the dwarves of the Legion of the Death, only the Grey Wardens are better prepared for that (as the destruction of Val Gamord demonstrates. The town is spared if you don't exile the Wardens, meaning that even if normal armies can fight them, only Grey Wardens can fight them more effectively). There is also the fact that only Grey Wardens can defeat an Archdemon (and this is historically demonstrated during the First Blight).
I concur to both. However, no organization however needed they may be can use that need to justify mass murder and a number of other crimes. You are right that the game does not give that option, but it does not preclude it either. I sincerely respect your beliefs and points, and if you feel that way you should keep them. From what I have seen in the books and games however they have become as corrupted as the Seekers, Templars and others. They need a severe check, and the idea that all the nations of the world who loved the Divine will just forget their role in it makes no sense to me. Punish the guilty and spare the innocent - as if BioWare ever gives us that option.
I want to see if the nations of the world will love the Inquisitors who exiled the Wardens when the Sixth Blight comes (that according to one of the epilogues in Awakening —the Bioware's default one, in fact— is something that can be happening in the immediate future. After all, the Fifth Blight was an accident...)
I concur to both. However, no organization however needed they may be can use that need to justify mass murder and a number of other crimes.
A fair point.
You are right that the game does not give that option, but it does not preclude it either.
I think it does. This is a video game. The options you see are the options you have. If you want to be able to say that a game not giving you an option doesn't preclude you taking it, get into tabletop games. (Actually, do that anyway.)
I sincerely respect your beliefs and points, and if you feel that way you should keep them.
Not necessarily. If my beliefs or points are wrong, I should abandon them. The thing here is I don't think they are.
From what I have seen in the books and games however they have become as corrupted as the Seekers, Templars and others. They need a severe check, and the idea that all the nations of the world who loved the Divine will just forget their role in it makes no sense to me.
A severe check is something they could use, but if it stops them doing their jobs that can very easily lead to bad things.
If you've played the game, you already know that the south of Thedas (all the southern region, that includes Ferelden and the lands west to Orlais) is left with no Wardens at all (this is revealed in the Epilogue). Then, due to their bad reputation, earned or not, wardens will abandon the lands of northern Thedas as well. This decision will leave Thedas without Wardens, even without those who didn't were involved with the death of the Divine (The northern Wardens).
As for the people who fights the Darkspawn? Yeah, is demonstrated that other people can fight Darkspawn as well, but beyond the dwarves of the Legion of the Death, only the Grey Wardens are better prepared for that (as the destruction of Val Gamord demonstrates. The town is spared if you don't exile the Wardens, meaning that even if normal armies can fight them, only Grey Wardens can fight them more effectively). There is also the fact that only Grey Wardens can defeat an Archdemon (and this is historically demonstrated during the First Blight).
I want to see if the nations of the world will love the Inquisitors who exiled the Wardens when the Sixth Blight comes (that according to one of the epilogues in Awakening —the Bioware's default one, in fact— is something that can be happening in the immediate future. After all, the Fifth Blight was an accident...)
You raise valid points but I did notice that you did not address the crimes of the Wardens themselves. If I read this right, and I might not be, you appear to be saying that no matter what crimes they committed, no matter the fact that they themselves came close to destroying the world, the crimes should be overlooked. Am I reading this correctly or not? Hypothetically then, if the Wardens decide that the HoF has become a threat because a) they have moved on after Awakening per the game and 
they are hunting for a cure that could weaken their power it would be in the Wardens' interests to have HoF put out of the way one way or another. So if they did decide to kill him / her should that be overlooked under "the greater good clause?" I probably am reading this wrong, and I intend no disrespect for your opinions, but in this case I do not understand how you would deal with the crimes of the Wardens.
A fair point.
I think it does. This is a video game. The options you see are the options you have. If you want to be able to say that a game not giving you an option doesn't preclude you taking it, get into tabletop games. (Actually, do that anyway.)
Not necessarily. If my beliefs or points are wrong, I should abandon them. The thing here is I don't think they are.
A severe check is something they could use, but if it stops them doing their jobs that can very easily lead to bad things.
The beauty of the games are that each player can make their own calls (not that BioWare ever seems to pay much attention in the games that follow). No two players are alike. You and I love the games but have different viewpoints which is fine. I keep hoping that the next DA will resolve some of this, but I already know that it won't. Probably I shouldn't think and rethink it.
You raise valid points but I did notice that you did not address the crimes of the Wardens themselves. If I read this right, and I might not be, you appear to be saying that no matter what crimes they committed, no matter the fact that they themselves came close to destroying the world, the crimes should be overlooked. Am I reading this correctly or not? Hypothetically then, if the Wardens decide that the HoF has become a threat because a) they have moved on after Awakening per the game and
Oh, the Wardens have committed crimes, yes. I cannot deny that. Even as unwitty pawns, they helped Corypheus. But didn't other factions did the same? Mages, Templars, Seekers, the Empire of Orlais. Heck, if we talk about the most "evil" faction in Thedas, we should point at the Chantry.
Even the Inquisition can potentially commit crimes during the playthrough just for "helping" the world (like cutting the tongue of a bard for bad talking about the Inquisitor, smuggle lyrium, keeping Ameridan true identity as a secret just to benefit one family, etc.)
In Dragon Age, there is no such thing as black and white morality. Just orange and blue.
Oh, the Wardens have committed crimes, yes. I cannot deny that. Even as unwitty pawns, they helped Corypheus. But didn't other factions did the same? Mages, Templars, Seekers, the Empire of Orlais. Heck, if we talk about the most "evil" faction in Thedas, we should point at the Chantry.
Even the Inquisition can potentially commit crimes during the playthrough just for "helping" the world (like cutting the tongue of a bard for bad talking about the Inquisitor, smuggle lyrium, keeping Ameridan true identity as a secret just to benefit one family, etc.)
In Dragon Age, there is no such thing as black and white morality. Just orange and blue.
I would agree. However, forgetting about Dragon Age as a game as such, the red templars and the rebel templars are fairly well annihilated. The rebel mages (the ones in the war) are fairly well annihilated. The plot by F to murder Celene results in her trial. I'm not sure what crimes the Seekers committed, but at the end of the day they too were nearly annihilated. Only the Wardens escape any kind of punishment. So even if the others had not been punished (or annihilated) I still do not understand why the Wardens should not be. My argument is simply that no one should be above the law, and them using the same old "but what about the Blights" argument to escape justice simply grates. Sorry, but we may have to agree to disagree.
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