1570 réponses à ce sujet

[Fredward]

The banished forever  from ALL of southern Thedas bit caught me off guard. I though that option was to pragmatically banish them from wherever Corypheus might be active for as long as he was active. But then i thought about it for a bit and from my Quisie's perspective and decided to let the decision stand, the Inquisitor never learns why Grey Wardens are required to end the Blight does s/he? So from my Quisie's perspective she saw the Grey Wardens as opportunists who have managed to spin the Blights into power and concessions that span Ages, almost like her with rifts except they weren't really necessary. From her perspective anyway.

[DDJ]

The banished forever  from ALL of southern Thedas bit caught me off guard. I though that option was to pragmatically banish them from wherever Corypheus might be active for as long as he was active. But then i thought about it for a bit and from my Quisie's perspective and decided to let the decision stand, the Inquisitor never learns why Grey Wardens are required to end the Blight does s/he? So from my Quisie's perspective she saw the Grey Wardens as opportunists who have managed to spin the Blights into power and concessions that span Ages, almost like her with rifts except they weren't really necessary. From her perspective anyway.

 

Very well put.  That is part of the problem for any secret society fanatically devoted to a single ideal to the exclusion of all else.  I have wondered about the spin myself.  The option is to pragmatically banish them to avoid Corypheus' manipulations.  From an in game perspective, the real decision if they can return to the south lies with the Empress of Orlais and the King of Ferelden, not the Inquisitor who they want firmly out of the way by Tresspasser, either as a tool for Orlais or gone for Ferelden.

 

Again, very well put.

[German Soldier]

Duncan was there to save the HoF from certain death; the HoF and potentially Loghain surviving their joinings was another strike of luck.

1)Duncan does not save the warden of the HN Origin he just blackmail them.

2)Loghain surviving the joining isn't luck he was a choice made by Riordan because he had the strenght to survive his death would have been the suprise.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I would agree.  However, forgetting about Dragon Age as a game as such, the red templars and the rebel templars are fairly well annihilated.  The rebel mages (the ones in the war) are fairly well annihilated.  The plot by F to murder Celene results in her trial.  I'm not sure what crimes the Seekers committed, but at the end of the day they too were nearly annihilated.  Only the Wardens escape any kind of punishment.  So even if the others had not been punished (or annihilated) I still do not understand why the Wardens should not be.  My argument is simply that no one should be above the law, and them using the same old "but what about the Blights" argument to escape justice simply grates.  Sorry, but we may have to agree to disagree.  

Well, even if you don't banish them they lose a lot of people. As others have said, the main victim of Clarel's plot was the Grey Warden order as a whole. Not to mention that you can explore this very question with Ser Ruth. (Clarel would have been a more appropriate figurehead to use for this, but I find I can't begrudge Bioware not giving us that given how awesome her death scene was.)

 

(Also, just to clarify, the two main things the Seekers are said to have done wrong was know how to cure Tranquility but not tell their boss, and not investigate Meredith as religiously as they should have. The latter of these I do not condone, but the former... well, the Tranquility cure, when used on a mage, does not end in a stable mage, and mages absolutely need to be stable given how their power interacts with their emotions. So there is at least one argument for what the Seekers did as far as the Tranquility cure.)

 

 

The beauty of the games are that each player can make their own calls (not that BioWare ever seems to pay much attention in the games that follow).  No two players are alike.  You and I love the games but have different viewpoints which is fine.  I keep hoping that the next DA will resolve some of this, but I already know that it won't.  Probably I shouldn't think and rethink it.  

But what are you basing your call on? You said that the Inquisitor might be willing to accept other Wardens into his sphere of influence or the First Warden might acknowledge that these Wardens aren't acceptable in the public eye anymore and send others. What do you have to support that that actually happened? Yes, either would be sensible, but this isn't a setting where you can assume characters do the sensible thing.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Very well put.  That is part of the problem for any secret society fanatically devoted to a single ideal to the exclusion of all else.  I have wondered about the spin myself.  The option is to pragmatically banish them to avoid Corypheus' manipulations.  From an in game perspective, the real decision if they can return to the south lies with the Empress of Orlais and the King of Ferelden, not the Inquisitor who they want firmly out of the way by Tresspasser, either as a tool for Orlais or gone for Ferelden.

 

Again, very well put.

Did you forget the part where if you exile them, the newspaper on the stairs outright says you told the world the Wardens were responsible for the Divine's death and tried to help Cory summon a demon army. Considering how petty the nobility is, how well do you think people are going to take this information?

[thesuperdarkone2]

 

 

But what are you basing your call on? You said that the Inquisitor might be willing to accept other Wardens into his sphere of influence or the First Warden might acknowledge that these Wardens aren't acceptable in the public eye anymore and send others. What do you have to support that that actually happened? Yes, either would be sensible, but this isn't a setting where you can assume characters do the sensible thing.

Seems DDJ doesn't know what exile means. It means kicking out EVERY Warden. Plus, if you already have the qunari alliance and exiled the wardens, Iron Bulls says the ben-hassrath are helping the Inquisition kill any Wardens that are still in the south. That pretty much confirms if you exile the Wardens, you hate them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Seems DDJ doesn't know what exile means. It means kicking out EVERY Warden. Plus, if you already have the qunari alliance and exiled the wardens, Iron Bulls says the ben-hassrath are helping the Inquisition kill any Wardens that are still in the south. That pretty much confirms if you exile the Wardens, you hate them.

Wow. Really? That's a bit extreme. Though arguably called for since they compound their crimes by not leaving when exiled. Still, is that what he says in as many words? Or is it something more ambiguous? Like, say, Bull saying "deal with" without putting a harsh inflection on it?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Wow. Really? That's a bit extreme.

Yeah. It doesn't help that the Inquisitor can say he hopes everyone sees what monsters the Wardens really are after exiling them. That pretty much confirms that if you exile them, the Inquisitor hates the wardens and wants them to stop existing.

[Pasquale1234]

The banished forever  from ALL of southern Thedas bit caught me off guard. I though that option was to pragmatically banish them from wherever Corypheus might be active for as long as he was active. But then i thought about it for a bit and from my Quisie's perspective and decided to let the decision stand, the Inquisitor never learns why Grey Wardens are required to end the Blight does s/he?

Quisie has options, at least in some world states. If s/he's not willing to take their word for it (ala Loghain), s/he could potentially learn it from Leliana and/or Morrigan. The former may not have participated in the fifth blight, but the latter certainly did, and knows the ropes. Frankly, I would think that a reasonably inquisitive Inquisitor might want to know more about this whole calling business, and inquire of those who were at the HoF's side during the fifth blight.

But that's one of the reasons why I appreciate the reappearance of former characters - it tends to open up additional role-playing opportunities.

[XxFAMOUSxX]

Nostalgic purposes I'll assume for most. No reason for them to stay to be honest, it'll actually hurt our chances for them to remain. I mean in game purposes there are really no negative affects, maybe a few war table missions and such but for a role playing purposes they have to go. If they were any other organization, they would not only be exiled but killed. You can always petition to have them back after the initial threat with the breach and Corypheus is handled (assuming we haven't finished trespasser yet) just like they did in Fereldan in earlier years. Calling or not the wardens seem to go too far, without any denial from Alistair/Stroud/Loghain. I sympathize with them, but let's be real, if we had no clue of who they were, for majority of us I'll assume they'll be exiled without hesitation.. Besides, the moment another blight should come (here's to assuming yet again) they'll be welcomed with open arms, should they not screw us and awaken the old gods before hand in another ridiculous attempt.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The banished forever  from ALL of southern Thedas bit caught me off guard. I though that option was to pragmatically banish them from wherever Corypheus might be active for as long as he was active. But then i thought about it for a bit and from my Quisie's perspective and decided to let the decision stand, the Inquisitor never learns why Grey Wardens are required to end the Blight does s/he? So from my Quisie's perspective she saw the Grey Wardens as opportunists who have managed to spin the Blights into power and concessions that span Ages, almost like her with rifts except they weren't really necessary. From her perspective anyway.

You dance around the point for long enough that the Inquisitor can eventually guess, if you don't mind roleplaying a bit of a Bat Deduction. You know that Corypheus has the power to jump to tainted beings, and Morrigan mentions in passing that Archdemons can do the same thing. You know that Wardens are corrupted because the Warden contact can't explain the situation to you without telling you that. It's not the sloppiest roleplaying ever to figure your character would guess the two are connected, if you don't decide they throw out the "Wardens are literally necessary" bit as propaganda.

 

But of course that doesn't help you decide the relevant decision since you only get the necessary clue after you made the decision.

[DDJ]

You dance around the point for long enough that the Inquisitor can eventually guess, if you don't mind roleplaying a bit of a Bat Deduction. You know that Corypheus has the power to jump to tainted beings, and Morrigan mentions in passing that Archdemons can do the same thing. You know that Wardens are corrupted because the Warden contact can't explain the situation to you without telling you that. It's not the sloppiest roleplaying ever to figure your character would guess the two are connected, if you don't decide they throw out the "Wardens are literally necessary" bit as propaganda.

 

But of course that doesn't help you decide the relevant decision since you only get the necessary clue after you made the decision.

 

Well, even if you don't banish them they lose a lot of people. As others have said, the main victim of Clarel's plot was the Grey Warden order as a whole. Not to mention that you can explore this very question with Ser Ruth. (Clarel would have been a more appropriate figurehead to use for this, but I find I can't begrudge Bioware not giving us that given how awesome her death scene was.)

 

(Also, just to clarify, the two main things the Seekers are said to have done wrong was know how to cure Tranquility but not tell their boss, and not investigate Meredith as religiously as they should have. The latter of these I do not condone, but the former... well, the Tranquility cure, when used on a mage, does not end in a stable mage, and mages absolutely need to be stable given how their power interacts with their emotions. So there is at least one argument for what the Seekers did as far as the Tranquility cure.)

 

 

But what are you basing your call on? You said that the Inquisitor might be willing to accept other Wardens into his sphere of influence or the First Warden might acknowledge that these Wardens aren't acceptable in the public eye anymore and send others. What do you have to support that that actually happened? Yes, either would be sensible, but this isn't a setting where you can assume characters do the sensible thing.

 

My call is based on two things.  One, the Inquisitor is a military force, not a ruling force.  If they are banished both Orlais and Ferelden have both the right and the power to bring them back.  Second, the final conclusion does not preclude this.  Unless they specifically preclude it there is at least a fifty percent chance that they can be replaced.  Ferelden for sure would if Alastair is king.  

[DDJ]

Seems DDJ doesn't know what exile means. It means kicking out EVERY Warden. Plus, if you already have the qunari alliance and exiled the wardens, Iron Bulls says the ben-hassrath are helping the Inquisition kill any Wardens that are still in the south. That pretty much confirms if you exile the Wardens, you hate them.

Actually I do know what the word exile means.  And booting them all is exactly what I mean.  Whatever consequences to the Wardens, they have pretty much earned bought and paid for by their own hand.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Actually I do know what the word exile means.  And booting them all is exactly what I mean.  Whatever consequences to the Wardens, they have pretty much earned bought and paid for by their own hand.

So I suppose there shouldn't be wardens in the Anderfels and Tevinter where darkspawn are a constant menace to commoners?

[DDJ]

Did you forget the part where if you exile them, the newspaper on the stairs outright says you told the world the Wardens were responsible for the Divine's death and tried to help Cory summon a demon army. Considering how petty the nobility is, how well do you think people are going to take this information?

 

Actually I did not forget the newspaper.  However, since I usually have Cassandra and Vivienne with me in the Fade, and they want them gone, I think it very unlikely that they are just going to clam up about Warden involvement.  And frankly, they did aid Cory by summoning a demon army.  I am uncertain that they should be given another chance to do so although the idea does repeat itself - i.e., Sophia Dryden who did it all on her own and Clarel + Cory.  At this point, destroying the entire world with demons appears to be equally if not more dangerous than the Blights.  Of course Wardens are not sworn to defend the world from demon armies, so I guess it could be concealed within their "greater good" philosophy.  Obviously you are entitled to keep them, but given the severity of the numerous crimes they committed, I can't see whitewashing them.  Sorry.

[DDJ]

So I suppose there shouldn't be wardens in the Anderfels and Tevinter where darkspawn are a constant menace to commoners?

 

First of all, Tevinter is not even aiding the Inquisition.  Second, the Anderfels are in northern Thedas.  When you look at the war map, the theater of operations is in Orlais and Ferelden.  The Inquisitor does not have the authority to exile them from either of the places you mentioned, so I am not sure what you mean.  I am talking strictly about the group involved in the murder of the Divine and aiding Cory, noted as a darkspawn during the game, raised a demon army and create a breach that threatens to destroy the world.  

[thesuperdarkone2]

First of all, Tevinter is not even aiding the Inquisition. Second, the Anderfels are in northern Thedas. When you look at the war map, the theater of operations is in Orlais and Ferelden. The Inquisitor does not have the authority to exile them from either of the places you mentioned, so I am not sure what you mean. I am talking strictly about the group involved in the murder of the Divine and aiding Cory, noted as a darkspawn during the game, raised a demon army and create a breach that threatens to destroy the world.

You really think revealing the divines death and demon army won't affect the wardens in other countries ?

[DreamerM]

The fact that the Gray Warden mages remain bound to Corytheus means it's much, MUCH safer to send them away then it is to keep them around, at least as long as Corytheus lives.

But goddamn it, Clarel was wrong about EVERYTHING. I know they beat it over our heads that she really, really, REALLY thought she was doing what she had to do, that she didn't mean harm but... there were a LOT of human sacrifices involved in this. That's a lot of chances to realize this is a bad idea. Nothing good begins with a human sacrifice.

[DDJ]

You really think revealing the divines death and demon army won't affect the wardens in other countries ?

 

Yes, I do.  I think that the Wardens would have to become a more moral organization.  I do not believe that continually making excuses for them and covering up their crimes does a single thing to help them improve.  Frankly I believe that their right of conscription should be revoked and that they should be placed under strict non Warden rule.  They need to be checked, and considering the enormity of some of their crimes, it is long overdue.

[DDJ]

The fact that the Gray Warden mages remain bound to Corytheus means it's much, MUCH safer to send them away then it is to keep them around, at least as long as Corytheus lives.

But goddamn it, Clarel was wrong about EVERYTHING. I know they beat it over our heads that she really, really, REALLY thought she was doing what she had to do, that she didn't mean harm but... there were a LOT of human sacrifices involved in this. That's a lot of chances to realize this is a bad idea. Nothing good begins with a human sacrifice.

 

Exceptionally well put.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Yes, I do. I think that the Wardens would have to become a more moral organization. I do not believe that continually making excuses for them and covering up their crimes does a single thing to help them improve. Frankly I believe that their right of conscription should be revoked and that they should be placed under strict non Warden rule. They need to be checked, and considering the enormity of some of their crimes, it is long overdue.

The exiled ending says otherwise and the wardens do become more moral if you keep them

[DDJ]

The exiled ending says otherwise and the wardens do become more moral if you keep them

 

But of course the Inquisitor has no way of knowing that in real time.  What Inquisitor does know is that these very Wardens who practiced human sacrifice of other Wardens and who were not brainwashed attempted to raise a demon army, murdered hundreds of innocents at the Temple of Sacred Ashes and would have destroyed the world, once their demon army is destroyed and they are defeated are now trying to ingratiate themselves with the Inquisition and are susceptible to outside control.  That is an awful lot to overlook and certainly impossible to whitewash considering the number of Inquisition soldiers who see them fighting as allies with the demons.

[Gold Dragon]

My reason for keeping the Wardens around?  Simple:

 

She already has too much blood on her hands for what SHE has done.  What happens if another Archdemon rises before Cory is defeated?  (True:  We as the players know that won't happen, but look at it from what the Inquisitor knows)  How many people will die before the Wardens (the only group known to be able to kill Archdemons) can get back into Orlais?

 

Thinking about that, Cory was stupid.  If he wanted Chaos, he should have found and awakened BOTH remaining Archdemons.  Chaos for EVERYONE!

[Pasquale1234]

The fact that the Gray Warden mages remain bound to Corytheus means it's much, MUCH safer to send them away then it is to keep them around, at least as long as Corytheus lives.

I would suggest you might be better off to kill 'em all than send them away where they might continue to cause harm.

Or you can keep them under the watchful eye of the Inquisition. If any of them are still bound to Cory, they might alert you to his next move.
 

But goddamn it, Clarel was wrong about EVERYTHING. I know they beat it over our heads that she really, really, REALLY thought she was doing what she had to do, that she didn't mean harm but... there were a LOT of human sacrifices involved in this. That's a lot of chances to realize this is a bad idea. Nothing good begins with a human sacrifice.

The wardens are operating under a little different mindset from the get-go. Many of them don't even survive the joining, and those who do have already given themselves over to the taint - for the privilege of serving mankind in the event of a blight. Sacrifice is an accepted part of the warden way.

In war, victory.
In peace, vigilance.
In death, sacrifice.

[DDJ]

My reason for keeping the Wardens around?  Simple:

 

She already has too much blood on her hands for what SHE has done.  What happens if another Archdemon rises before Cory is defeated?  (True:  We as the players know that won't happen, but look at it from what the Inquisitor knows)  How many people will die before the Wardens (the only group known to be able to kill Archdemons) can get back into Orlais?

 

Thinking about that, Cory was stupid.  If he wanted Chaos, he should have found and awakened BOTH remaining Archdemons.  Chaos for EVERYONE!

 

Now this is a very good point.  Well said.