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[Zero]

(Also, just to clarify, the two main things the Seekers are said to have done wrong was know how to cure Tranquility but not tell their boss, and not investigate Meredith as religiously as they should have. The latter of these I do not condone, but the former... well, the Tranquility cure, when used on a mage, does not end in a stable mage, and mages absolutely need to be stable given how their power interacts with their emotions. So there is at least one argument for what the Seekers did as far as the Tranquility cure.)

 

The crime of the Lord Seeker was to feed the other Seekers with Red Lyrium to kill'em all, while allying with Corypheus because he joined that crazy sect that wanted the end of the world. Lord Seeker Lucius even permitted an envy demon to take his identity to pursue his own agenda of destroying the Seeker order for good, leaving the Templar order in the hands of Samson and Corypheus. And, unlike the Wardens that were mind-controlled or deceived by a false Calling, Lucius did all those stuff on his free will (yet, nobody blames the Seekers for actually working with the enemy on their own free will, instead of the other groups, that were deceived or manipulated to do so).

 

Then, there is the Tranquility cure and other stuff that Cassandra discovered while in her personal quest. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The crime of the Lord Seeker was to feed the other Seekers with Red Lyrium to kill'em all, while allying with Corypheus because he joined that crazy sect that wanted the end of the world. Lord Seeker Lucius even permitted an envy demon to take his identity to pursue his own agenda of destroying the Seeker order for good, leaving the Templar order in the hands of Samson and Corypheus. And, unlike the Wardens that were mind-controlled or deceived by a false Calling, Lucius did all those stuff on his free will (yet, nobody blames the Seekers for actually working with the enemy on their own free will, instead of the other groups, that were deceived or manipulated to do so).

That's not stuff we have any reason to think the Seeker order was in on, though. In fact I'd imagine most of them weren't in on the thing where they get poisoned with Red Lyrium. I remembered that Lucius had done all of this, but I didn't think any of this really counted as stuff the Seeker Order did, and that's what I was trying to list.

 

 

Thinking about that, Cory was stupid.  If he wanted Chaos, he should have found and awakened BOTH remaining Archdemons.  Chaos for EVERYONE!

I don't think Cory wanted true chaos, though. I think he wanted to cause chaos for everyone else using forces that he was able to mostly control. The Archdemons wouldn't qualify.

 

 

But of course the Inquisitor has no way of knowing that in real time.  What Inquisitor does know is that these very Wardens who practiced human sacrifice of other Wardens and who were not brainwashed attempted to raise a demon army, murdered hundreds of innocents at the Temple of Sacred Ashes and would have destroyed the world, once their demon army is destroyed and they are defeated are now trying to ingratiate themselves with the Inquisition and are susceptible to outside control.  That is an awful lot to overlook and certainly impossible to whitewash considering the number of Inquisition soldiers who see them fighting as allies with the demons.

You seem to be saying that the Wardens who weren't brainwashed were responsible for the Divine's death. Is that what you're saying? Because unless you're thinking guilt by association that's a really tough sell considering that seeing what appears to be an Archdemon is what finally convinces Clarel she's been had. Unless the Wardens who helped kill the DIvine were enslaved you'd expect to see the same reaction from them that Clarel gives the Red Lyrium Dragon. Given that the Wardens in the Temple were instead obeying orders Corypheus gave them I think they were almost certainly brainwashed.

 

Most of the rest of this I'll give you, though it's worth noting that the Inquisition also tends to see the Wardens turn on the demons most of the way through the battle. (At least in my World States, since I try to bring the Wardens around during the dialogue with Clarel. Yes, even in the one World State where I banished them.)

[Fredward]

Quisie has options, at least in some world states. If s/he's not willing to take their word for it (ala Loghain), s/he could potentially learn it from Leliana and/or Morrigan. The former may not have participated in the fifth blight, but the latter certainly did, and knows the ropes. Frankly, I would think that a reasonably inquisitive Inquisitor might want to know more about this whole calling business, and inquire of those who were at the HoF's side during the fifth blight.

But that's one of the reasons why I appreciate the reappearance of former characters - it tends to open up additional role-playing opportunities.

 

I'm never entirely comfortable making head-canon equal to what happens on-screen, unless it's irrelevant to the broader story and never gets mentioned. I always do the GW quest before the Ball so then it's only up to Leliana to mention something which I'm not even entirely sure she would, neither of them scold the Inquisitor after the decision either which I also find kinda weird considering they should know that wasn't the best idea ever.

[DDJ]

The crime of the Lord Seeker was to feed the other Seekers with Red Lyrium to kill'em all, while allying with Corypheus because he joined that crazy sect that wanted the end of the world. Lord Seeker Lucius even permitted an envy demon to take his identity to pursue his own agenda of destroying the Seeker order for good, leaving the Templar order in the hands of Samson and Corypheus. And, unlike the Wardens that were mind-controlled or deceived by a false Calling, Lucius did all those stuff on his free will (yet, nobody blames the Seekers for actually working with the enemy on their own free will, instead of the other groups, that were deceived or manipulated to do so).

 

Then, there is the Tranquility cure and other stuff that Cassandra discovered while in her personal quest. 

 

Thank you.  I recall with great satisfaction killing that little "expletive deleted" now that you mention him.

[DDJ]

That's not stuff we have any reason to think the Seeker order was in on, though. In fact I'd imagine most of them weren't in on the thing where they get poisoned with Red Lyrium. I remembered that Lucius had done all of this, but I didn't think any of this really counted as stuff the Seeker Order did, and that's what I was trying to list.

 

 

I don't think Cory wanted true chaos, though. I think he wanted to cause chaos for everyone else using forces that he was able to mostly control. The Archdemons wouldn't qualify.

 

 

You seem to be saying that the Wardens who weren't brainwashed were responsible for the Divine's death. Is that what you're saying? Because unless you're thinking guilt by association that's a really tough sell considering that seeing what appears to be an Archdemon is what finally convinces Clarel she's been had. Unless the Wardens who helped kill the DIvine were enslaved you'd expect to see the same reaction from them that Clarel gives the Red Lyrium Dragon. Given that the Wardens in the Temple were instead obeying orders Corypheus gave them I think they were almost certainly brainwashed.

 

Most of the rest of this I'll give you, though it's worth noting that the Inquisition also tends to see the Wardens turn on the demons most of the way through the battle. (At least in my World States, since I try to bring the Wardens around during the dialogue with Clarel. Yes, even in the one World State where I banished them.)

 

I thought I had explained this.  All of the Wardens under Clarel, by both sins of omission and sins of commission, were involved in the Divine's death.  Had they not willingly and with a full heart followed her plan, the Divine would not have died.  I concur that the ones in the temple may have been brainwashed.  Emphasis on may.  Even so, had the Wardens listened to Stroud, none of it would have been possible.  No matter how it is considered, every individual killed by the demons due to Clarel's insane idea falls on the backs of the Wardens involved.  Not all Wardens on Thedas, but all Wardens under her command.  Cory could only accomplish this with their participation, and without Clarel's involvement the Divine would not have died.

[Xilizhra]

I thought I had explained this.  All of the Wardens under Clarel, by both sins of omission and sins of commission, were involved in the Divine's death.  Had they not willingly and with a full heart followed her plan, the Divine would not have died.  I concur that the ones in the temple may have been brainwashed.  Emphasis on may.  Even so, had the Wardens listened to Stroud, none of it would have been possible.  No matter how it is considered, every individual killed by the demons due to Clarel's insane idea falls on the backs of the Wardens involved.  Not all Wardens on Thedas, but all Wardens under her command.  Cory could only accomplish this with their participation, and without Clarel's involvement the Divine would not have died.

Baseless speculation, given that we've also seen Corypheus controlling Wardens after Here Lies the Abyss; there's no reason to think that any of them consented to killing the Divine, especially since it wouldn't help their attempt to kill the Old Gods at all.

[DDJ]

Baseless speculation, given that we've also seen Corypheus controlling Wardens after Here Lies the Abyss; there's no reason to think that any of them consented to killing the Divine, especially since it wouldn't help their attempt to kill the Old Gods at all.

 

It is hardly baseless speculation since all of them were willingly aiding Clarel.  I find it difficult to understand the rationalization that helps the Wardens avoid any guilt whatsoever for their crimes.  They need a severe check to their power and to their schemes of demon armies etc.  Sorry, but while I do respect your opinion, the point stands since we have no way of knowing with any certainty that the Wardens at the murder scene were controlled.  You may assume it if you wish, but considering their zealous whatever it takes to stop the Blight and the utter failure of anyone other than Stroud to even protest, the theory is hardly baseless.  Considering all of the things they have done before Here Lies The Abyss, such as Sophia Dryden's demon army, my theory remains that they may well not have been as controlled as some believe.  After all they did believe they would use her sacrifice to summon the demon army if I recall the story correctly.

[Xilizhra]

It is hardly baseless speculation since all of them were willingly aiding Clarel.  I find it difficult to understand the rationalization that helps the Wardens avoid any guilt whatsoever for their crimes.  They need a severe check to their power and to their schemes of demon armies etc.  Sorry, but while I do respect your opinion, the point stands since we have no way of knowing with any certainty that the Wardens at the murder scene were controlled.  You may assume it if you wish, but considering their zealous whatever it takes to stop the Blight and the utter failure of anyone other than Stroud to even protest, the theory is hardly baseless.  Considering all of the things they have done before Here Lies The Abyss, such as Sophia Dryden's demon army, my theory remains that they may well not have been as controlled as some believe.  After all they did believe they would use her sacrifice to summon the demon army if I recall the story correctly.

I believe that "Grey Wardens would willingly serve an intelligent darkspawn trying to conquer the world" is, aside from being wholly unrelated to Erimond's plan (which publicly had nothing to do whatsoever with Corypheus, as it wouldn't have worked if it had), an extraordinary enough hypothesis that you'll need proof more extraordinary than a lack of proof that the Wardens at the Temple were controlled... despite the fact that the precedent for Corypheus controlling Wardens is clear. Also, you do not recall the story correctly. At all.

[Pasquale1234]

I'm never entirely comfortable making head-canon equal to what happens on-screen, unless it's irrelevant to the broader story and never gets mentioned. I always do the GW quest before the Ball so then it's only up to Leliana to mention something which I'm not even entirely sure she would, neither of them scold the Inquisitor after the decision either which I also find kinda weird considering they should know that wasn't the best idea ever.

I often find I need to apply a certain amount of headcanon to make the world and my character's experience feel at all realistic. If I relied solely on what is presented in-game, Quizzie would have a bedroom she could decorate but never sleep in, be listening to other characters banter about bathing while she never does, etc. It's also pretty hard for me to believe that she would work alongside all of these other folks for weeks / months on end, yet never talk to them outside of the programmed conversations. There are other things that we know take place off-camera; apparently, IB and Dorian get together if neither is romanced, Blackwall sends flowers to Josie - which would suggest they actually have some contact we never see, most advisors/followers can offer opinions on the others even if we never see them having any contact on-camera, etc. There's also the fact that I get approval notices from characters who aren't in my party - which I assume to be an abstract of either them learning about the Inquisitor's activities once she returns to Haven/Skyhold or the idea that they are all present on all missions. In short, the game tells me there's a lot going on off-camera.

You learn about the wardens' disappearance very early in the game. My current Inquisitor just returned from looking for them on the Storm Coast, and already knows that Leliana is close to the HoF, so it feels pretty natural that the Inquisitor might ask Leliana for her insight about the wardens. Ergo, I find it pretty easy to headcanon that my Inquisitor has all of the pertinent info about GW when she gets to Adamant.

There are a lot of different ways to role-play - which is, I guess, one of the reasons why it's so darned much fun.

[DDJ]

I believe that "Grey Wardens would willingly serve an intelligent darkspawn trying to conquer the world" is, aside from being wholly unrelated to Erimond's plan (which publicly had nothing to do whatsoever with Corypheus, as it wouldn't have worked if it had), an extraordinary enough hypothesis that you'll need proof more extraordinary than a lack of proof that the Wardens at the Temple were controlled... despite the fact that the precedent for Corypheus controlling Wardens is clear. Also, you do not recall the story correctly. At all.

 

Perhaps, but none the less, there is no evidence whatsoever that they were mind controlled beyond Stroud's assumption.  Whatever the case, Wardens knew of and approved Clarel's plan which included this.  Even if they were mind controlled, and I do not deny that possibility, they are guilty of, by both sins of omission and commission, the Divine's murder.  Certainly they stand ready to raise demon armies and possibly destroy the world.  You can claim if you wish that this was not part of Erimond's plot, but then again Erimond was a disciple of Cory so we do not really know that.  Sorry, but until I have some harder evidence that the Wardens definitely did not know of the plan to kill the Divine I must maintain my theory.

 

I do respect your theory however.

[Xilizhra]

Perhaps, but none the less, there is no evidence whatsoever that they were mind controlled beyond Stroud's assumption.  Whatever the case, Wardens knew of and approved Clarel's plan which included this.  Even if they were mind controlled, and I do not deny that possibility, they are guilty of, by both sins of omission and commission, the Divine's murder.  Certainly they stand ready to raise demon armies and possibly destroy the world.  You can claim if you wish that this was not part of Erimond's plot, but then again Erimond was a disciple of Cory so we do not really know that.  Sorry, but until I have some harder evidence that the Wardens definitely did not know of the plan to kill the Divine I must maintain my theory.

 

I do respect your theory however.

I can't say the same for yours, as you're basing it on nothing. There's nothing anywhere in the game that ties Justinia's death to anything Clarel was doing.

[DDJ]

I can't say the same for yours, as you're basing it on nothing. There's nothing anywhere in the game that ties Justinia's death to anything Clarel was doing.

 

Your defense of the Wardens is admirable.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I thought I had explained this.  All of the Wardens under Clarel, by both sins of omission and sins of commission, were involved in the Divine's death.  Had they not willingly and with a full heart followed her plan, the Divine would not have died.  I concur that the ones in the temple may have been brainwashed.  Emphasis on may.  Even so, had the Wardens listened to Stroud, none of it would have been possible.  No matter how it is considered, every individual killed by the demons due to Clarel's insane idea falls on the backs of the Wardens involved.  Not all Wardens on Thedas, but all Wardens under her command.  Cory could only accomplish this with their participation, and without Clarel's involvement the Divine would not have died.

This makes some sense, if and only if the Wardens were from Clarel's command and brainwashed during Erimond's plan... which we don't know to be the case given that Corypheus can just control Wardens on his own. He could have grabbed some of the Wardens that Erimond brainwashed, and in that case Erimond's plan would have been the reason it happened, but neither of those has to be true. But even assuming that that's when they were brainwashed we're reaching the point where we're blaming all of the Wardens for a consequence of the plan that only a few were directly involved in and none of them could have seen coming. And in the very unlikely event that the Wardens who worked directly with Corypheus weren't brainwashed at all I have no idea how you think the demons in the Deep Roads plan related to the Divine's Death, since if Clarel didn't get them brainwashed I can't think what you think she did that got them there.

 

Edit: Although it's also a real stretch to say that "without Clarel's involvement the Divine would not have died." Come on. Given Cory's taint abilities he could have grabbed a few Wardens without her, and unless he foresaw the destruction of his current body and a need to respawn right where he died there's nothing stopping him using other henchmen in their place anyway. And as a Tevinter magister he can mind control people who don't have the Taint. Or summon demons. If he even needed the help of others at all, which is unclear.

 

 

Perhaps, but none the less, there is no evidence whatsoever that they were mind controlled beyond Stroud's assumption.  Whatever the case, Wardens knew of and approved Clarel's plan which included this.  Even if they were mind controlled, and I do not deny that possibility, they are guilty of, by both sins of omission and commission, the Divine's murder.  Certainly they stand ready to raise demon armies and possibly destroy the world.  You can claim if you wish that this was not part of Erimond's plot, but then again Erimond was a disciple of Cory so we do not really know that.  Sorry, but until I have some harder evidence that the Wardens definitely did not know of the plan to kill the Divine I must maintain my theory.

 

I do respect your theory however.

Could you at least explain how you arrived at your theory the Wardens who worked directly with Corypheus weren't brainwashed? And that the plan as it was sold to the Wardens included killing the Divine? Can you explain what in-game evidence led you to those conclusions? If you have an actual reason to maintain your theory you should be able to do that. If you can't do that, maybe you shouldn't maintain your theory.

 

 

Your defense of the Wardens is admirable.

And some of your attacks on them are admirably bewildering. You raise confusing those you debate with to an art form.

[Zero]

You should take into account that every Grey Warden in Orlais (and possibly Ferelden —as Stroud/Alistair/Loghain is still hearing it in Crestwood) was hearing the Calling. Yeah, the same song they hear when they know they're going to die. That Blackwall doesn't is only because the guy wasn't actually a Grey Warden. They were not mind-controlled, yes, but with all of them hearing the Calling, they were fearful. If all the Grey Wardens died, who will stop the two remaining Blights?

 

 

Erimond played with Clarel's fears. And in turn, she played with the Warden's ones. They accepted, because (in Loghain's or Alistair's words) "they have seen what a Blight did to Ferelden". Unopposed, the next Blight (that the rumors say is brewing in the Anderfels, according to Awakening) will destroy Thedas.

[ModernAcademic]

The truth is that the devs blaming the Wardens for the Divine's death was bull from the start. Wardens controlled by blood magic and helping an ancient, powerful Magister? Come on. 

 

And what about that fake Archdemon Corypheus was controlling? How ridiculous was that? It ruined the tension. Geez, and here I thought our Inquisitor would actually have an epic fight alongside the Hero of Ferelden and Morrigan to defeat an Archdemon, with a possible dramatic death as our Warden went out in a blaze of glory...no, turns out the dragon was a fraud.

 

And what the heck was that about a demon mimicking the Calling? I don't care if it was thousands of years old. This is just a weak, lazy subplot. A creature from the Fade, who wasn't even possessing anyone, capable of affecting hundreds of Wardens at the same time in the OTHER world? Really? Do you seriously want me to believe in this, BW? Is this for real?

 

No matter how you choose to discuss it, the Warden subplot was just messy. It was lazily elaborated and prone to end in confusion and leave a biter taste of disappointment in everyone's mouths. This was just NOT the way to wrap up the Wardens' theme, BW. Not after that epic first game. I still can't believe the HoF (if alive by the end of Origins) doesn't even make an appearance. Shame on you.

[WardenBlue]

 

No matter how you choose to discuss it, the Warden subplot was just messy. It was lazily elaborated and prone to end in confusion and leave a biter taste of disappointment in everyone's mouths. This was just NOT the way to wrap up the Wardens' theme, BW. Not after that epic first game. I still can't believe the HoF (if alive by the end of Origins) doesn't even make an appearance. Shame on you.

Becuase Bioware thinks about how well Revan went down. And my warden's dead. So I'm pretty happy about how it turned out! 

[Mberry]

I did not exile the Wardens.  My game style is to collect allies.  I also sided with the mages over the Templars.  Having given the Mages a second chance, I felt that I had to give the Wardens a second chance.  I also chose Hawke over Straud.  Actually my import of DA 2 didn't work quite right and I got the generic Hawke instead of my original character.

[Fredward]

I often find I need to apply a certain amount of headcanon to make the world and my character's experience feel at all realistic. If I relied solely on what is presented in-game, Quizzie would have a bedroom she could decorate but never sleep in, be listening to other characters banter about bathing while she never does, etc. It's also pretty hard for me to believe that she would work alongside all of these other folks for weeks / months on end, yet never talk to them outside of the programmed conversations. There are other things that we know take place off-camera; apparently, IB and Dorian get together if neither is romanced, Blackwall sends flowers to Josie - which would suggest they actually have some contact we never see, most advisors/followers can offer opinions on the others even if we never see them having any contact on-camera, etc. There's also the fact that I get approval notices from characters who aren't in my party - which I assume to be an abstract of either them learning about the Inquisitor's activities once she returns to Haven/Skyhold or the idea that they are all present on all missions. In short, the game tells me there's a lot going on off-camera.

You learn about the wardens' disappearance very early in the game. My current Inquisitor just returned from looking for them on the Storm Coast, and already knows that Leliana is close to the HoF, so it feels pretty natural that the Inquisitor might ask Leliana for her insight about the wardens. Ergo, I find it pretty easy to headcanon that my Inquisitor has all of the pertinent info about GW when she gets to Adamant.

There are a lot of different ways to role-play - which is, I guess, one of the reasons why it's so darned much fun.

 

Yeah no, all that's stuffs fine that's just fleshing stuff out but with the Warden's there's no implication before or after the decision is made that the Quisie had all the required info, from my perspective. Specifics like those you mentioned aren't going to become plot points in the future and while you're playing the game it helps you be immersed and connected to the characters so there's no harm BUT the Inquisitor's lack of knowing why the Wardens were necessary for Blights might  become a plot point going forward.

 

For instance in the epilogue where they stay it already sounds like they decide to be less secretive/reclusive, now if you decide to shoo them out and a future warden mentions that it was the Order's stubborn, secretive nature that almost destroyed it cuz the Inquisitor didn't know why they were needed it'd contradict my headcanon of hearing about GWs necessity from Leliana. Which is the kind of thing I want to avoid.

 

But like you said, different strokes.

[SoKoLoV]

I never refuse allies in Dragon Age and I have a great respect for the Grey Wardens. Giving up your life to kill darkspawn untill one day it will be your last. Also, having played Dragon Age Origins and having witnessed the battle of Ostagar it would be to hard to exile them having seen what they can do. Lastly I hugely respected Duncan and he would fly into a rage if I would exile them, would he still be alive, can't do that to a great man. It's an organisation that has to exist no matter what, the blight, archdemons, darkspawn in general and whatelse need an enemy that constantly hunts them down.

[d1ta]

Kept the GW because they are a specialized force to be reckon with and have a unique skill in sensing darkspawn.

Yes, they made a monumental mistake. And tbh their only saving grace for me at that time was because they use their own people to 'fuel' their bloody insane project and not the blood of others (well okay, minus Justinia :grin: )

But see those darkspawn wandering happily in the storm coast? Or that cave behind the waterfall in the Hinterlands? Or perhaps that big gaping hole in the Western Approach where my Military outpost sit comfortably right next to it?
Problem with darkspawn is that they exist everywhere anywhere, whenever they could dig up surface then that's where they'll come pouring through. They are not one of them endemic species that only exist in one area. They're all over the place.

And yes, my Quizy tends to throw any force she could find under her boyfriend's boots (well, minus qunari I guess..)
Different troops for different circumstances

[Pasquale1234]

Yeah no, all that's stuffs fine that's just fleshing stuff out but with the Warden's there's no implication before or after the decision is made that the Quisie had all the required info, from my perspective.

Well - in most cases, the game provides - whatever - in terms of background information, and then asks for the decision. Whatever reasoning or logic Quizzie applies to making that decision is generally left to the player.
 

For instance in the epilogue where they stay it already sounds like they decide to be less secretive/reclusive, now if you decide to shoo them out and a future warden mentions that it was the Order's stubborn, secretive nature that almost destroyed it cuz the Inquisitor didn't know why they were needed it'd contradict my headcanon of hearing about GWs necessity from Leliana. Which is the kind of thing I want to avoid.

Offhand, I don't remember them ever suggesting any reasoning behind a former PC's choices - only the choices themselves. I think the devs are fairly aware that assuming any sort of motives for choices interferes with role-play.
 

But like you said, different strokes.

Indeed.