27 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfsten]

As a disclaimer, I completed the game on Hard with no trouble at all and am currently doing well in a Nightmare run-through, so I’m pretty well-acquainted with the combat mechanics.

 

After about 20 hours of play, my experience so far is that mages tend to be by far the classes getting the most XP at the end of every mission, when levels are held equal. I also tend to see more mages in lobbies than other classes.

 

I play Hunter and Templar, and I’ve frequently been in the position of sprinting towards an enemy, only to have it instantly die before I get there to some AoE bomb.

 

After missions, mages are racking up 18 kill streaks, where I’ve never broken 5. I’m a level 12 Templar with a 100 DPS sword, so I’m not particularly buffed up, but I will regularly be outmatched by level 3-5 Keepers.

 

Are the mages I’ve been playing with just blessed with incredible buff-ass gear at this point, or are Mages just a bit OP?

 

As a secondary issue, the difficulty is really skewed quite badly. Parties including levels 8-12 will often get wiped by a Demon Commander on Routine difficulty after breezing through the rest of the level with no trouble at all. Saying that “Routine” is recommended for levels 1-8 is very misleading. When I’ve been trying a new class at level 4 with party members at levels 4-8 it became very evident we didn’t have a hope of actually beating the mission – Demon Commanders were one-shotting people, archers were destroying the defensive line – it was a massacre.

 

Maybe if you’re assuming everyone’s got ridiculous gear, but with even average loot the level recommendations are completely out of whack.

[SicMirx]

I never viewed the suggested level range as player level. I viewed it as player level, gear level, skill level range. I think I was a level 18 Assassin with a purple lvl. 15 and a white 20+ dagger before even trying Threatening.

As far as mages being OP? Depends on how you look at it. AW? Yup. I kind of wish the class was just removed to bring a little more coop spirit back.

The Ele and Necro can be CC gods given a good doorway and staff. But, not everyone pulls or has patience to do anything besides "Oh, a piece of candy!" and beeline to the next enemy.

Keeper, meh. Not incredible in terms of damage, but an awesome support class. Not just Barrier, either. All sorts of Shock and Paralisis stalling (or stopping) of groups to bosses.

Depending on the situation, I love my three mages. When the fecal matter hits the oscillating, spinning blades, I tend to regret not bringing someone else.

[III Poison III]

As a disclaimer, I completed the game on Hard with no trouble at all and am currently doing well in a Nightmare run-through, so I’m pretty well-acquainted with the combat mechanics.

After about 20 hours of play, my experience so far is that mages tend to be by far the classes getting the most XP at the end of every mission, when levels are held equal. I also tend to see more mages in lobbies than other classes.

I play Hunter and Templar, and I’ve frequently been in the position of sprinting towards an enemy, only to have it instantly die before I get there to some AoE bomb.

After missions, mages are racking up 18 kill streaks, where I’ve never broken 5. I’m a level 12 Templar with a 100 DPS sword, so I’m not particularly buffed up, but I will regularly be outmatched by level 3-5 Keepers.

Are the mages I’ve been playing with just blessed with incredible buff-ass gear at this point, or are Mages just a bit OP?

As a secondary issue, the difficulty is really skewed quite badly. Parties including levels 8-12 will often get wiped by a Demon Commander on Routine difficulty after breezing through the rest of the level with no trouble at all. Saying that “Routine” is recommended for levels 1-8 is very misleading. When I’ve been trying a new class at level 4 with party members at levels 4-8 it became very evident we didn’t have a hope of actually beating the mission – Demon Commanders were one-shotting people, archers were destroying the defensive line – it was a massacre.

Maybe if you’re assuming everyone’s got ridiculous gear, but with even average loot the level recommendations are completely out of whack.

I got a 21 kill streak last night as an assassin following Penguins guide and just killing mages and archers/wraiths. It was glorious! I did finish 3rd but I had most medals (4 silver,2 bronze and a gold) buy I felt like had I not being doing what I was doing, the pug would have failed. I felt like I controlled the whole match. Buy yeah a necro finished top even though she had less kills, less combos and less everything. No idea how it's worked out.

[J. Peterman]

Re-balance everything just cos you couldn't kill quickly enough? Ok.

[Ghanima]

caster :

Arcane Warrior and Elementalist need a little nerf

I would remove Death syphon from the elementalist, that should do the trick, anyway death syphon should belong to necromancer only.

for Arcane warrior its a little more tricky to apply a decent change to the class, maybe decrease the barrier generation from ranged attack, not sure...

necromancer need guardian Spirit instead of their "crappy spirit form" unless they remove death syphon from elementalist. need a little more hp.

Keepers are fine, could rework a few useless passive on the three but Chain lightning and Barrier win the game.

Guardian Spirit need to be made once every round or 3 min not every minute.

 

Ranged dps:

Hunters are fine, good dps, stealth remove debuff so they can surivve

Archers are squishy but they have huge dps, so they are "ok"

 

Melee dual wield dps:

assassin are too squishy I think, dps is where it should be

can't judge elementalist

 

Warrior tank:

not enough armor, not enough armor, not enough armor!!!

legionnaire: little more hp on them

templar: little more defense on them

 

Warrior 2 handed:

not enough armor, not enough armor, not enough armor!!!

Katari: don't waste time on them, almost no one play them and everybody kick them anyway.

Reaver: fix rampage first so we can see.

[Hiero_Glyph]

So it's obvious you are new to MP.  I understand that you have completed the SP portion of the game but that is not the same as MP.  While you may understand the combat mechanics better than most, MP is all about the quality of your weapon.  As you even stated you do not have a good one yet so you will struggle a bit until you do.  As for the Demon Commander, well, think of him like a wall for inexperienced players.  Yes, he's tough but more experienced players can take him down even at level 1.  As a Legionnaire/Templar you can run away when he marks you and immediately turn around before he pops up with Shield Wall.  This will prevent the knockdown and armor you up.

[Robbiesan]

After playing different characters, one thing I have noticed is how much of a difference weapons/abilities can make.

 

If you are seeing mages can get a decent amount of kills between staff an abilities, they likely have a dcent staff, that and attack spam adds up.  Same with Archer/Hunter with a good bow and use of abilities.

 

With regard to Templar, the most powerful combination for myself is Wrath Of Heaven + Spell Purge.  It simply kicks ass, at least on Routine/Threatening.  When I have these abilities I literally run into the enemy group, especially archers, and use this combo.  They usually drops them like flies, or at least they now are highly damaged and easy to finish.  What also helps though, even at low levels is now having a good weapon.  Also, a well perked shield can make a big difference.  I have a unique shield that generates guard with each hit.  This really improves the S&S character's survivability.

 

So keep in mind that it is a bit easier for ranged characters to get these kills.  Sometimes I literally play with one hand, spamming attack and the odd ability while the other hand is busily feeding me sour cream n onion potatoe chips.  *shrugs*

 

Keep practicing and you'll learn greater tactics as you go.

 

Oh, and yes, that Demon Commander is a pain, but if keep moving, he is quite manageable.  One of the biggest problems I see in MP level 5 is when the team wants to stay in the room.  With the venatori/tempalrs, not so much an issue, but with DC a confined space can make it that much more difficult.  In truth, I have also played with simply moving around the map, engaging enemies head on.  When we stay in one place it is sometimes overwhelming.  Hoping more players catch onto this.

[Beerfish]

I can't comment on the 1st part of the ops post but they are certainly 100% correct about the 2nd part and I'm sure BioWares telemetry will back it up.  Most teams get crushed by the Demon commander and his cohorts.

[Yuanrang]

Mages outperform mostly everyone because they have AOE abilities which nets them a lot of points, thus make them soar on the ending scoreboard.

 

Just lower the gain on AOE damage. I judge performance by medals or, in the case of tanks and barrier-suppliers, whether the party stays alive or not.

[Shadohz]

necromancer need guardian Spirit instead of their "crappy spirit form" unless they remove death syphon from elementalist. need a little more hp.

 

Necromancers are a life-leech and hex/curse class. Technically they should be doing hp-sapping.

 

 

Mages outperform mostly everyone because they have AOE abilities which nets them a lot of points, thus make them soar on the ending scoreboard.

 

Just lower the gain on AOE damage. I judge performance by medals or, in the case of tanks and barrier-suppliers, whether the party stays alive or not.

 

Then you're going to either really love or hate my next bug.

OP: MP is alot different from SP mechanics. Yes the Level X to Y is confusing. MP is more gear-based than level-based. This has been brought up. Ranged fighters have a leg up on melee kits because for one most players are being "selfish" and aren't waiting until melee characters get into the combat range of spawns, two you're probably under-geared compared to other players and three you're probably playing Routine being matched up with high-geared players who are grinding challenges. Most players who've been playing this a few weeks are already aware how kits perform.

[knownastherat]

Its not just mages its ranged. The way the game works and maps are designed its more efficient to shoot everything from distance be it AoE,, single or even auto-attack. Before melee gets there .. forget about it. Even many of combos for melees are not worth to bother executing because why to make it complicated? 

[whattheduece23]

Its all gear dude I've had a 17 kill streak as a katari with 86 maul kills and 36 ability kills at just lvl7.

Another round with my archer at just level 1 I had 121 bow kills with a 21 kill streak, simply because I have the bow of the gryffin that fires 3 arrows per string pull.

Now Arcane warriors are obviously OP but i've had a match with two staff kills medals, one gold for 121 kills and a bronze or maybe silver with 36 kills, just because I have I lvl23 staff.

[Storm_Changer]

With mages like keeper they can contribute to the team WITHOUT op gear, which is why they're a pretty popular pick for anyone with bad gear for most classes [like me, despite 40+ hours of MP.] Just to throw that perspective out there. 

 

The only mage I really notice consistently at the top of the leader boards is Arcane Warrior, which is almost certainly because AW is a very aggressive class with insane sustain, so it never truly leaves the fight. Keepers tend to come bottom as most, like myself, play a supportive role as barrier is effectively the only "heal" in the game, really. 

 

As for elementalist, their AoE can catch alot of trash mobs and last hit them. But I find any Ele with barrier tends to come closer to the bottom as well, providing they actually use barrier for the team. 

[Geth Supremacy]

Re-balance everything just cos you couldn't kill quickly enough? Ok.

I LOVE these times.  There have been like 4-5 balance threads today alone.  Its funny how everyone is an expert, but here they are playing the game and not making them.

 

It gets annoying quick because they just don't stop and every single one of them is the authority on all things balance, but for right now I can laugh at these threads.

[tbxvividos]

Keepers tend to come bottom as most, like myself, play a supportive role as barrier is effectively the only "heal" in the game, really.

Wut?

[TheThirdRace]

It's mostly about gear. Although mages tend to be more efficient with poor gear, they even out with the other classes when everyone has good gear.

 

Bioware did the same with ME3, Biotics were awesome even with starter guns and everyone were playing them. Eventually, people got better gear and it diversified quite a bit as they became just as strong as Biotics.

 

I don't know why Bioware always chose to make the "mage" class good without gear instead of making them just as bad with poor gear than the other classes. They could introduce a progression mechanic similar to guns to make them progress like the other classes.

[holdenagincourt]

The more BSN pedantry about how easy it is to deal with Demon Commander I read, the more I wish I lived in their world in which every game they play is on LAN.

[diagorias]

I actually have the feeling that when everyone has high ilevel items, mages do less damage and get less kills than rogues and sometimes even warriors (depending on the class), aside from the AW ofc (then again, I haven't found an extremely good staff)

[Robbiesan]

Another round with my archer at just level 1 I had 121 bow kills with a 21 kill streak, simply because I have the bow of the gryffin that fires 3 arrows per string pull.

 

 

Wow, I so want that Bow....

[EnemySpinach]

The more BSN pedantry about how easy it is to deal with Demon Commander I read, the more I wish I lived in their world in which every game they play is on LAN.

You just need people who know what they're doing. Most randoms are incapable of learning, and one idiot can ruin it for everyone.

There's a range where the Demon Commander will just walk towards it's target. Only walk. Nothing more. No attacks. No nothing. It' quite a generous range, too. Too close, it panics all nearby people and goes underground. Too far, and it goes under. Get one person just leading it around while everyone else shoots it in the back. It will never go underground. Boom. The tricky part is to eliminate as many of the adds as you can before doing this, so the bait doesn't get taken down.

 

But no. All any group of randoms ever wants to do is camp the entryway and get overwhelmed. Clustered together, charging in full melee.

[knownastherat]

You just need people who know what they're doing. Most randoms are incapable of learning, and one idiot can ruin it for everyone.

There's a range where the Demon Commander will just walk towards it's target. Only walk. Nothing more. No attacks. No nothing. It' quite a generous range, too. Too close, it panics all nearby people and goes underground. Too far, and it goes under. Get one person just leading it around while everyone else shoots it in the back. It will never go underground. Boom. The tricky part is to eliminate as many of the adds as you can before doing this, so the bait doesn't get taken down.

 

But no. All any group of randoms ever wants to do is camp the entryway and get overwhelmed. Clustered together, charging in full melee.

 

Just had Reaver doing exactly what you describe. Running circles inside zone 5 trailed by DC. The problem in our group was to realize "the plan" in the first place. What do I know what the Reaver is doing and what is the Archer and Keeper doing? So we improvised and got it done, thanks to the Reaver, but most people are not mind readers nor seasoned MMO players. I see it as lack of communication in the first place. 

[Jugger nuggss]

Re-balance everything just cos you couldn't kill quickly enough? Ok.

It's the only sensible thing to do.

[Shinnyshin]

Do you think it's the power level of mages that needs rebalancing or how points are calculated?  Both are valid arguments but they're entirely different discussions.  I will agree that it often sucks being a level lower on my Legionnaire than my friend's Elementalist when we started at the same time 'cuz medals.  I'll also agree that burning key targets doesn't make you look nearly as good in the scoreboard as AoEing all the fodder, though I'm not really sure it's a problem...

[Wulfsten]

I get that a lot of mp seems to be equipment dependent, but I think they then need to give equipment level restrictions like in sp. It's a bit silly to see level 4 characters massively outperforming level 20 characters just because ofntheir shiny sword.

Mages need to deal less AoE damage, or at least have it contribute less to their xp. Regardless of what the underlying mechanics are, something is wrong if the mage of the party is the top ranked player in post-match summaries 70-90% of the time.

I get that the demon commander's attack can be evaded, I just think that it deals too much damage, especially in a situation containing lag and swarms of other enemies. It's just disproportionate with what all the other enemies do.

[gay_wardens]

Wulfenstein you're kind of being an idiot. You don't realize from playing 20 hours that the mages just had way better weapons than you. A level 1 keeper could have a staff that does around 200 DPS.

 

Coming on here and saying "lol i beat the campaign, so i decided to play MP for 5 minutes, and wow is it imbalanced" is pretty ironic don't you think?