93 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

I want healing spells back and DAO spell trees too. God dam DAI pitiful mages.

[PhroXenGold]

I do think removing the healing and switching to a more attrition based system made the gameplay better.However, after spending a few days playing Pillars of Eternity, I've come to the conclusion that Obsidian's method of achieving this, by seperating your survivability into endurance (short term health that can be healed with spells/items etc.) and health (long term health that can only be healed by resting, which is serverly limited), works much better. You get the same attrition style of gameplay, with successive fights slowly wearing you down (something DA:O for example never had due to the effectively unlimited healing), but allows more options for how you are going to keep your party alive (one of which is healing, but by no means do you need a healer, especially as most of the best tanks can restore their own endurance to some extent).

[AshenSugar]

I've made my position clear from the start, right back when it was first revealed that there would be no healing magic within the game.

 

I want spirit healing back, no ifs, no buts.

 

This potion spamming is all very well, but personally I find it dull as dishwater, and more to the point, it places a limitation upon exploration. Having to trudge back to camp again and again isn't fun.

 

I many ways, the Inquisition system feels like the first Diablo, released in 1996. Fighting until you finally run out of potions, and then having to teleport back to town to visit Pepin the Healer, and buy a load more potions. It interrupts the flow of the game. 

 

Diablo 2 introduced items, rings, amulets and belts that gave passive hit point regeneration to your character, which could be further upgraded by placing skulls into socketed items. Add health leaching items into the mix, and you could keep yourself in the field for much longer.

 

Heck, I'd be happy if there were some items in Inquisition that gave some form of passive health regeneration, even if it were just slowly over time. It worked well in Mass Effect 1, and really helped improve quality of life.

[AshenSugar]

Actually, Merrill couldn't and the fact that all mages could be potential healers in the game play of DAO/DAA is contradictory to the actual lore of Thedas. 

 

Game mechanics =/= lore

 

Hee hee, she can in my game, thanks to the awesome power of mods

 

Anders gets on my goat with his constant whining, I far prefer Merrill, I don't see why he needed to hog all the healing goodness.

[Morroian]

I do think removing the healing and switching to a more attrition based system made the gameplay better.However, after spending a few days playing Pillars of Eternity, I've come to the conclusion that Obsidian's method of achieving this, by seperating your survivability into endurance (short term health that can be healed with spells/items etc.) and health (long term health that can only be healed by resting, which is serverly limited), works much better. You get the same attrition style of gameplay, with successive fights slowly wearing you down (something DA:O for example never had due to the effectively unlimited healing), but allows more options for how you are going to keep your party alive (one of which is healing, but by no means do you need a healer, especially as most of the best tanks can restore their own endurance to some extent).

 

Oh yeah, POE is far far better in this regard, no healing but also no busywork.

[PhroXenGold]

Oh yeah, POE is far far better in this regard, no healing but also no busywork.

 

There is healing in PoE, but (at least as far as I've found), it can only heal your endurance. So it will keep you alive through a fight, but it doesn't counteract the loss of health over multiple fights. 

[Hexoduen]

I do think removing the healing and switching to a more attrition based system made the gameplay better.However, after spending a few days playing Pillars of Eternity, I've come to the conclusion that Obsidian's method of achieving this, by seperating your survivability into endurance (short term health that can be healed with spells/items etc.) and health (long term health that can only be healed by resting, which is serverly limited), works much better. You get the same attrition style of gameplay, with successive fights slowly wearing you down (something DA:O for example never had due to the effectively unlimited healing), but allows more options for how you are going to keep your party alive (one of which is healing, but by no means do you need a healer, especially as most of the best tanks can restore their own endurance to some extent).

 

Exactly. I have nothing against a system that slowly wears the party down, on contrary it's my favorite since it adds a lot of immersion to the game

 

What I dislike is the way Bioware approached it in Inquisition. Instead of adding to the game, and changing the rules where necessary, which would have made DAI richer with more different choices, we instead lost a bunch of basic spells and a whole class. I feel like I'm left with only 1 option: Mash that barrier spell

 

A healing spell system as the one found in Baldur's Gate, or the heal system in Pillars of Eternity, would have been awesome

[Viper371]

Heres a poll for the healing magic debate.

 

Let your opinion be known.

 

http://strawpoll.me/3173971

 

I would like it, maybe as a specialization, so as not to unbalance the game too much. If all mages can heal and nothing changes, it's gonna be a little too easy the way the game is designed.

Probably best to forget it for DA:I, but reintroduce it for future games.

[PhroXenGold]

Exactly. I have nothing against a system that slowly wears the party down, on contrary it's my favorite since it adds a lot of immersion to the game

 

What I dislike is the way Bioware approached it in Inquisition. Instead of adding to the game, and changing the rules where necessary, which would have made DAI richer with more different choices, we instead lost a bunch of basic spells and a whole class. I feel like I'm left with only 1 option: Mash that barrier spell

 

A healing spell system as the one found in Baldur's Gate, or the heal system in Pillars of Eternity, would have been awesome

 

While I do prefer DA:I's system thanks to it being attrition based instead of treating each combat as a separate battle with full resources, the lack of options in how you minimise the damage your party is taking is indeed annoying. Rather than actually adding options, they simply swapped healspam for barrier spam.

 

I dunno if anyone here played City of Heroes, but it was a brilliant example of how to diversify the "support" role and give a wide variety of methods for keeping your team alive. Yes, it's an MMO, but DA's combat has always been heavily MMO inspired, so it's pretty appropriate. In CoH, the defender class - the rough equivalent of the "healer" in other MMOs - had the job of mitigating incoming damage and keeping the team alive. And if you wanted to, you could do this the old fashioned way by healing (Empathy). Or, if you preferred, you could do this by debuffing the hell out of your foes' accuracy and damage and dropping a minor heal every know and then (Radiation Emission). Or, maybe you could do it by buffing your allies avoidance through the roof and throwing around some knockdowns, keeping the damage low enough for everyone's innate health regen to keep up (Force Fields). Or maybe you like to have a mix of tools? (Darkness). By the time of CoH's sad demise, there were something like 8-9 powersets avaialble to defenders, all of which used different combinations of tools to keep the party alive - and several of which did not include healing amongst their tools. And they all worked well. The balance wasn't perfect, but it was reasonably good (and certainly good enough for a non-competitive game), and it gave so much variety in how you could play the same basic role of keeping your mates alive. Oh, and on top of all that, controllers (no prizes for guessing what their main job was....) could also fill in the "keep people alive" role, with an entirely different method of doing so. After all, stunned enemies aren't hurting anyone....

 

I really wish more RPG designers - those behind both MMOs and SP games like DA would've taken a look at how CoH did roles and abilities. There was a huge amount of creativity in there, yet since it came out, pretty much every MMO, and many non-MMO RPGs have resorted  to "healspam", or a direct equivalent such as DA:I's barrier.

[Hexoduen]

While I do prefer DA:I's system thanks to it being attrition based instead of treating each combat as a separate battle with full resources, the lack of options in how you minimise the damage your party is taking is indeed annoying. Rather than actually adding options, they simply swapped healspam for barrier spam.

 

I dunno if anyone here played City of Heroes, but it was a brilliant example of how to diversify the "support" role and give a wide variety of methods for keeping your team alive. Yes, it's an MMO, but DA's combat has always been heavily MMO inspired, so it's pretty appropriate. In CoH, the defender class - the rough equivalent of the "healer" in other MMOs - had the job of mitigating incoming damage and keeping the team alive. And if you wanted to, you could do this the old fashioned way by healing (Empathy). Or, if you preferred, you could do this by debuffing the hell out of your foes' accuracy and damage and dropping a minor heal every know and then (Radiation Emission). Or, maybe you could do it by buffing your allies avoidance through the roof and throwing around some knockdowns, keeping the damage low enough for everyone's innate health regen to keep up (Force Fields). Or maybe you like to have a mix of tools? (Darkness). By the time of CoH's sad demise, there were something like 8-9 powersets avaialble to defenders, all of which used different combinations of tools to keep the party alive - and several of which did not include healing amongst their tools. And they all worked well. The balance wasn't perfect, but it was reasonably good (and certainly good enough for a non-competitive game), and it gave so much variety in how you could play the same basic role of keeping your mates alive. Oh, and on top of all that, controllers (no prizes for guessing what their main job was....) could also fill in the "keep people alive" role, with an entirely different method of doing so. After all, stunned enemies aren't hurting anyone....

 

I really wish more RPG designers - those behind both MMOs and SP games like DA would've taken a look at how CoH did roles and abilities. There was a huge amount of creativity in there, yet since it came out, pretty much every MMO, and many non-MMO RPGs have resorted  to "healspam", or a direct equivalent such as DA:I's barrier.

 

I did not play City of Heroes, but the diversity of the support role sounds like a deep RPG system done right

 

There shouldn't be one path which is the blatantly obvious 'best choice' (barrier), it should be up to the player to choose if he or she wanted to go full on healing spells, full on protection spells, throw potions en masse etc., or a combination of the different support roles that might be designed. Still with an attrition based system

 

Barrier seems to me like pretty much the only choice we have on the higher settings, either I bring someone who casts it repeatedly, or I mash that same button over and over myself

[JadeDragon]

I am all for healing being back. Mages already have one choice while other class have two weapon groups to pick from. so support/healer mages need a comeback.

[Abraham_uk]

My ideal mage has lots of options.

 

 

Classic Area of Effect DPS.

Healing

Wards and protective spells

Debuffing

Crowd Control and telekinesis

Summoning

Shape Shifting

Leaching/draining spells

Pseudo warrior abilities (like the Knight Enchanter)

Teleportation

Entrapment

Isolation type spells

Sanctuary and protection spells

etc

 

I love to vary things up. This is why mage is my favourite class, because there are so many things you can do.

If all mages can do is area of effect dps then I might as well play as a rogue and spam volley of arrows or as a 2 hand warrior and do big impractical swings.

 

Okay they removed healing. But what of the other roles? They removed those too.

Heck I'd be okay with dividing mages into too classes. A defensive mage (Priest/Cleric) and an offensive mage (Sorcerer).

So the sorcerer can be like the mage from Dragon Age Inqusition and the Cleric can have the healing, buffing, debuffing, warding spells that are gone.

[FreeWitch]

More choice is always better.  I miss choice.  My fear is though they'll try and put that into an 8 slot limit too.  Heck I'd even like, in addition to this, to see an alchemist class.  If potions and grenades/bombs are your thing you could get your healing that way also.  All IMHO of course.

[Abraham_uk]

Here is what I have in mind.

 

Warrior:

Spoiler

 

Description:

Powerful melee fighters who can take a lot of damage and dish out a lot of damage.

Warriors true strength in combat lies in small precise movements, footwork, speed and accuracy.

 

Regular Trees:

Weapon and Shield

2 Hand

Finesse (precise footwork, and greater critical hit chance)

Tactics (grappling hooks, mini-crossbow, charging into enemies and drawing attention)

 

Specialisations: Pick 1

 

Guardian: Defensive warriors who can take a lot of hits and draw a lot of attention keeping the heat off allies. However they indeed lack the damage output of other specialisations. 

Champion: Champions (more like the DAO spec) rally and inspire their allies in combat. 

Reaver: Terrifying and depraved fighters who become more powerful as their health is depleted.

Templar: Effective anti-magic warrior who can dispatch both mages and spirits from the fade alike. Templar abilities can weaken and exhaust non magical fighters too.

 

Rogue:

Spoiler

 

Description:

Versatile fighters who use stealth, short ranged and long ranged attacks to their advantage.

 

Regular Trees:

Dual Wield

Archery

Sabotage

Subtefuge

 

Specialisations: Pick 1

Alchemist: (A combination of tempest and artificer). They use alchemical concoctions, poisons, traps, lures and explosives in battle.

Ranger: Rangers summon and train creatures into battle.

Bard: Bards use chants and cries to inspire allies and distract foes. They are not above fighting dirty (e.g. low blows, feigning death and ambushes).

Assassin: Stealthy critical hit based fighters who can deal a lot of damage to single targets. Their "Mark of death" abilities allows entire party to exploit foes weak points.

 

 

Sorcerer: 

Spoiler

 

Description:

Masters of mass destruction and crowd control.

These furious spell casters deliver powerful blows to groups of enemies.

 

Regular Trees:

Inferno

Winter

Storm

Earth

 

Specialisations: Pick 1

Battlemage: (Close ranged caster)

Forcemage: (Skilled in hurling groups of enemies)

Bloodmage: (Uses their own blood as a weapon to tear enemies apart)

Shadowmage: A stealthy mage who can unleash attacks from afar without detection

 

Mage: 

Spoiler

 

Description:

These are support mages, capable of protecting allies with barriers,

making allies attack and speed more powerful

weakening groups of enemies with entropy spells

damaging single targets with spirit magic, raising the dead

and healing allies.

 

Regular Trees:

Arcane

Entropy

Spirit

Creation

 

Specialisations: Pick 1

Keeper: Employs a bunch of nature based abilities such as grease, sending forth vines to trap enemies and charming nearby animals to attack foes.

Spell Sword: Caster has more health and can deal decent melee damage with a spirit blade.

Spirit Healer: Proficient at healing the party, reviving fallen allies and the removal of all negative effects.

Shape Shifter: Can change into a spider for poison/crowd control attacks, can change into a dire wolf for stealthy attacks, a bear for tanky combat and a swarm of bees to overwhelm enemies.

 

[Cz-99]

My ideal mage has lots of options.

 

 

Classic Area of Effect DPS.

Healing

Wards and protective spells

Debuffing

Crowd Control and telekinesis

Summoning

Shape Shifting

Leaching/draining spells

Pseudo warrior abilities (like the Knight Enchanter)

Teleportation

Entrapment

Isolation type spells

Sanctuary and protection spells

etc

 

I love to vary things up. This is why mage is my favourite class, because there are so many things you can do.

If all mages can do is area of effect dps then I might as well play as a rogue and spam volley of arrows or as a 2 hand warrior and do big impractical swings.

 

Okay they removed healing. But what of the other roles? They removed those too.

Heck I'd be okay with dividing mages into too classes. A defensive mage (Priest/Cleric) and an offensive mage (Sorcerer).

So the sorcerer can be like the mage from Dragon Age Inqusition and the Cleric can have the healing, buffing, debuffing, warding spells that are gone.

 

Yo dawg, I'mma let you finish, but I thought teleportation was impossible in the DA universe? 

 

But yeah I agree; mages need their variations back. 

[Bucky1986]

Taking out healing magic is by far one of the stupidest design choices they made for DA:I, i mean what happened did someone fart and all of a sudden all the mages in the world forget their healing magics? It might have made sense if they made up a story about the hole in the fade making healing magic backfire or something but for it to just dissapear completly......stupid.

 

Mechanically if they wanted you to be more vulnerable in fights then they should have imposed higher cooldowns and higher mana costs on healing magic, not just go ohhhh they dont needs it.

[PhroXenGold]

Mechanically if they wanted you to be more vulnerable in fights then they should have imposed higher cooldowns and higher mana costs on healing magic, not just go ohhhh they dont needs it.

 

Except that would have completely failed to achieve what they wanted - an attrition based system where you have a fixed amount of resources that run out over time, instead of being able to start each fight on full health.

[Duelist]

Except that would have completely failed to achieve what they wanted - an attrition based system where you have a fixed amount of resources that run out over time, instead of being able to start each fight on full health.

The idea you spoke of is certainly an interesting one but since I'm on console I won't ever play it.

As for DA, I've never been one for using healing as anything more than an "Oh Crap!!" button.
I find simply killing everything in sight as quickly as possible to be more effective so my parties tend to have at least two rogues.

[Spellbound7]

So I made a new combat overhaul, and this time I included changes for the Rogue and Warrior as well. It's a bit off-balanced as far as options go, since the Rogue got the short end of the stick with the amount of skill trees available to her - I might split the Sabotage tree in Traps and Alchemy, but it depends on how much free time I have from here on (new job starting soon).

 

I tried to address the concerns spoken of in this thread, and while I'm not particularly fond on attrition systems, I tried to land in a middle ground with the Fatigue system, something I found out this morning also exists in Pillars of Eternity. I'd say it's providence Most healing is indirect, and only 1 dedicated healing spell exists, though it comes with negative side effects so that you don't just spam it all the time.