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[Sith Grey Warden]

About kicking out mages, that seems to only be her shitty clan. Extra mages are usually given to other clans that need them at their ten year meeting thing. Merrill is not originally from the Sabrae clan after all.

 

Vivienne suggests that this isn't always the case, and I'm inclined to believe. Each Keeper can take on a First and a Second apprentice. Any more than that, and they have to kick them out. We don't have the population statistics on the rate of mage births and the size of clans, but it seems too convenient that across all the Dalish clans it'd even out so that every mage can find a clan to take them in. More likely, a lot of little Dalish mage kids die on their own upon being sent away from their clan.

[Esmian]

Even as a Dalish fan the actual revelation didn't strike me as "bad" but more realistic. The histories of nations and people are rarely what descendants actually believe through as much information as national propaganda. So yeah, ancient elves destroyed their own empire. At the same time people in Tevinter think they conquered a mighty empire when they actually probably just scared off a bunch of former slaves and appropriated elven magic as their own and could never use it as well as the original owners. So everyone kinda loses.

[BuddyL0ve]

Something I've mentioned in other threads is that the Dalish are essentially the equivalent of modern American Indians who decided to live by the Old Ways... but the only information they had on the Old Ways came from 40's and 50's Westerns. They have lost and misinterpreted so much they have gone from they single most advanced race on Thedas (that we know of) to wandering tribals.

Add to that they are a dying species. Small clans, low breeding population, loss of people to either accident, attack, disease, or simply leaving to move into a city (yes, alienages suck, but it has what passes for civilization in Thedas), and the final nail in coffin that elves breeding with humans results in human children? Elves as a whole, not just the Dalish, are a fading image of the world of the fantastic before the Ancient Elves destroyed themselves. In another thousand years, if that long, elves will be alongside griffons as another extinct species of Thedas.

[angelofsol]

It seems in Thedas nothing goes extinct... Dragons came back, it looks like Griffins might be on the horizon too.  If only Levellan had been able to have Solas's New God Baby (LOL) you'd have the rise of the ancient elves.  After all, the OGB tells her she has old blood... must mean she's fairly pure blooded.

[jellobell]

It seems in Thedas nothing goes extinct... Dragons came back, it looks like Griffins might be on the horizon too.  If only Levellan had been able to have Solas's New God Baby (LOL) you'd have the rise of the ancient elves.  After all, the OGB tells her she has old blood... must mean she's fairly pure blooded.

The heck does "pure blooded" even mean? Every elf must be descended from elves because any human-elf pair results in a human.

 

Now, modern elves do look a bit different than ancient elves (who seem to have been bulkier, judging from Solas and Abelas) but that might be because they are less connected to magic.

[BuddyL0ve]

The heck does "pure blooded" even mean? Every elf must be descended from elves because any human-elf pair results in a human.

 

Now, modern elves do look a bit different than ancient elves (who seem to have been bulkier, judging from Solas and Abelas) but that might be because they are less connected to magic.

May also mean the elven slaves were just smaller.

[jellobell]

May also mean the elven slaves were just smaller.

That's also a possibility. Though Abelas also has vallaslin.

 

Though if slaves were the ones doing all of the physical labour, then why would you want them to be smaller?

[Toasted Llama]

*puts hands on ears*

Not listening! La la la la la!

On a more serious note: since everyone in the history of ever has been put in a bad light, I'm not surprised nor has it changed my view of the Dalish.

[StarcloudSWG]

Abelas has vallaslin because he is enslaved to Mythal. Actually enslaved, through the geas placed by the Well of Sorrows.

 

That he chose it does not change the fact of his enslavement.

 

Also everything indicates there *has* been a diminishment of the elvaan in some way. Shorter physically, shorter lifespans, less magic..

 

As for why the Dalish kick out 'extra' mages from the clan (in most clans), it's because having too many mages draws Templar attention. It's a matter of survival. Even nomads like the Dalish still have to trade with civilized settlements, and the Templars are everywhere. If the Dalish get a reputation for having many mages, then the Templars seek the Dalish out and slaughter them.

[BroBear Berbil]

For me, I didn't like the Dalish to begin with. Inquisition made me soften towards them since it shows they're not all-knowing about Elven history and are desperately clinging to whatever they can find.

 

There was more to the Red Crossing story than just religion. It was largely a misunderstanding focused around a love story, and killing the human woman seems like an accident.

 

Maybe Dalish are diminished a bit but it made elves in general much more interesting to me. Playing Lavellan was pretty great as you learn just how wrong the Dalish are, how the elves at the temple couldn't care less about you (he called me a shem!), how Flemeth is uninterested in the elves, and even Solas doesn't really care to be grouped with elves. Losing her tattoos at the end was symbolic, at least for my Lavellan, of giving up the past and old identities.

 

I absolutely hated Dragon Age elves before this game, since I just saw them as existing only to be angry victims which I see enough of in real life. Now, I have a hard time saying dwarves are my favorite.

[Vyndral]

If it makes you feel any better Coryfish said my race was an accident.

[Trickshaw]

I love how the ancient elf at the temple of Mythal is all like, don't feel sorry us, we did this to ourselves with our own petty bickering. And then drops the whole, Dread Wolf didn't lock away the elven gods bomb in our laps.

FFS... Dalish don't know about their own culture.

Then again, humans kinda wrote the fact that Andraste was a Mage out of their own history books and Qunari apparently don't even keep historical records period so yeah...

Seems like dwarves are the last vestige of semi-accurate historical records. Oh wait, there's that whole "hey let's not keep maps of all our underground kingdoms and roads for centuries on end" thing.

[llandwynwyn]

I don't get why people victim blame the dalish so much.

 

I make fun of their flopping ways as well, but every society has its flaws...People overblame them sor some reason.

 

Especially with 'they know nothing' nonsense.

 

Is wrong to try to reclaim their lost culture?

 

I confess I didn't like the Dalish much in DAO, it was the weakest Origin imo, but Bioware insistence of killing them game, after game also in books and fandom's hate made me fond of them even more.

[Feybrad]

If it makes you feel any better Coryfish said my race was an accident.

 

The best Accident to ever happen to Thedas!

[jellobell]

I absolutely hated Dragon Age elves before this game, since I just saw them as existing only to be angry victims which I see enough of in real life. Now, I have a hard time saying dwarves are my favorite.

Yep. Frankly, I was astonished at how much Inquisition redeemed the Dalish in my eyes. They always seemed like one-dimensional haughty elf stereotypes before. But now I can appreciate how profound the loss of their history and culture has been, and the tragedy of trying to reclaim some sort of link to a past that you know nothing about.

[Laughing_Man]

Does it really matter?

In the end, whatever happened in the distant past, has very little relevance to the present.

We have a certain set of circumstances and we act according to what we see.

 

Justifying kicking down elves because of ancient history is the same logic Keeper Zathrian used.

It's not just, and more importantly, it's not constructive.

[berrieh]

The Dalish have always been made to look kind of bad, though. In DA:O, my first encounter with them was as a City Elf. After Lothering, I went straight to the Brecellian to look for my people. And they were total dicks to me. Then, I learned their leader had basically created a whole werewolf situation, lied about it, and put both the clan and lots of other people in danger. **** that guy. I only let the clan live because I felt sorry for them and there was a way to get both factions to live. Otherwise, I was leaning towards werewolves. The Dalish had it coming. (And I was sincerely really excited to meet them when I went!) 

 

In DA2, they were softened to some degree, but they're still dicks. And Merrill is a blood mage, and the Keeper summons the demon instead, and the clan sometimes tries to attack you....oh, and they bring Flemeth back, which makes total sense now, despite that seeming kind of "blood magic"y too. 

 

In Masked Empire, they're just awful. Summoning demons. They get their comeuppance, but seriously, dudes? And they're still racist dicks who have no interest in making any kind of relationship with any meaningful civilization and don't give a **** about City Elves. 

 

I mean, that's cool. Isolation is their deal, and I appreciate their inclusion in the story, but the Dalish haven't been "the good guys" to me, basically, since I met them. 

[Mr.House]

I loved seeing the Dalish beliefs shatter. Was worth the wait.

[Asakti]

I can totally forgive the Dalish for not knowing anything about their history - it has basically been 'chinese whispers' over the last few centuries.  They are a tragic people more than anything - and I can't really find fault with them being 'haughty' or anti-human...can you really blame them (isn't like they'd get a fab deal if they went and mingled with the other races)? 

 

...the stuff about abandoning the mage children is less acceptable - but also feels like a bit of retconning on the developers part - since I am pretty sure DA:O said mage children were cherished(?). 

[FiveThreeTen]

I never had a problem with their perceived "haughtiness" tbh.

They have good reasons to be wary of strangers.

[Mr.House]

I never had a problem with their perceived "haughtiness" tbh.

They have good reasons to be wary of strangers.

A human? Sure. But treating a dwarf or city elf like **** right from the get go? Just no.

[Lorien19]

May also mean the elven slaves were just smaller.

My theory is that it's probably generations of malnutrition and poverty to blame from the time of Tevinter until the time of the alienages.Even for the Dalish who aren't living in alienages,food must be difficult to come by during some periods of time.

[jellobell]

...the stuff about abandoning the mage children is less acceptable - but also feels like a bit of retconning on the developers part - since I am pretty sure DA:O said mage children were cherished(?). 

Largely depends on the clan, is the sense I got. You can say that clan Lavellan doesn't do that either, Merrill comes from a clan with a bunch of mages, and Sabrae takes Feynriel in.

[berrieh]

I never had a problem with their perceived "haughtiness" tbh.

They have good reasons to be wary of strangers.

 

They're not wary, though. They're enraged, bitter, and demeaning. Wary? I have no issues with. And the haughtiness is not perceived - they super look down on City Elves. 

 

I have no problem with their wariness of humans. Fair enough. I think total isolation is a bit foolish, since it's never going to work longterm, and that they should be forming some sort of better plan, but I get it. But the way they treat their own breatheren just because they were born somewhere else is a different story. 

 

I like the Dalish as a part of the story though. A lot. 

[angelofsol]

The heck does "pure blooded" even mean? Every elf must be descended from elves because any human-elf pair results in a human.

It stands to reason that most elves in Thedas have human mixed in there somewhere, city elves probably have more human blood than some Dalish, but some Dalish clans have harbored city elves and elven slaves who ran away.  By pure-blooded I mean just that... perhaps Levellan has little to no non-elven blood.  A human-elf pair does not result in simply a human, that makes no sense, especially with what we see in DA2.  There is a half elf there in the Kirkwall alienage and while he looks decently human he does have some very elven features.

For humans it seems if you have any known elven blood you're considered elven, not human.  (Much like africans historically in places like Louisiana; mulattos, quadroons, octaroons.... if you even had a 16th of black blood they counted you as black.  Seems no different with the elves).  From what I understand from some of the books, which I haven't read yet, seems like for half elves if you can pass as human and your parentage is never known you'd be better for it with the extreme prejudice.  There have to have been hosts of part elven babies born in alienages that don't get thrown out into human cities.  The humans wouldn't accept them and few are going to take in their half elven bastard.

Unless "old blood" is a sheer reference to simply being elven, which I doubt as it would be a really odd way for even Keirnan to say it the only other reference that comes to my mind and makes a bit of sense is that it's "purer" blood.

Glad to see though that I'm not the only one who thinks that the ancient elves had a different body style compared to modern elves.  Others haven't seen it and I thought I was the only one.  They struck me as slightly alien in appearance... taller and the torso to waist ratio was different (or maybe just highlighted because of the armor they wore).