102 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

Elves can't have human blood because an elf and a human having children = human children no matter what.

You can only find human with a bit of elven blood.

[BroBear Berbil]

A human? Sure. But treating a dwarf or city elf like **** right from the get go? Just no.

 

They treated Briala like garbage too and don't consider city elves as their people. Which just made it sting even more when Abelas pretty much said the same thing to my Dalish, or when Solas said it.

 

The new engine kind of helped me to appreciate elves more too. It's easier to appreciate their history when it's presented so beautifully. The ruins in DA:O and DA2 just couldn't do it justice.

[Lorien19]

I can totally forgive the Dalish for not knowing anything about their history - it has basically been 'chinese whispers' over the last few centuries. They are a tragic people more than anything - and I can't really find fault with them being 'haughty' or anti-human...can you really blame them (isn't like they'd get a fab deal if they went and mingled with the other races)?

...the stuff about abandoning the mage children is less acceptable - but also feels like a bit of retconning on the developers part - since I am pretty sure DA:O said mage children were cherished(?).

I certainly agree,it seemed like the developers retconned it so that the existence of the circles(reformed or not) will appear more appealing even for an Dalish Inquisitor.
In DA2 the sabrae clan accepted an elf blooded human,for the sole reason that he had magic and Anders made a positive comment about the way the Dalish treated their mages.

[Ashagar]

I always had a suspicion that the elves in the games given their lifespans and that their offspring with humans were human not half elves meant that the elves in games were in fact half elves and not pure blooded elves. 

[jellobell]

It stands to reason that most elves in Thedas have human mixed in there somewhere, city elves probably have more human blood than some Dalish, but some Dalish clans have harbored city elves and elven slaves who ran away.  By pure-blooded I mean just that... perhaps Levellan has little to no non-elven blood.  A human-elf pair does not result in simply a human, that makes no sense, especially with what we see in DA2.  There is a half elf there in the Kirkwall alienage and while he looks decently human he does have some very elven features.

But I'm pretty sure Bioware has said on multiple occasions that elf + human results in a child that looks fully human. And presumably if that child grows up and has a child with an elf, then their child will also look human. You don't get gradually elfier. Elf + human does not result in a hybrid.

 

That said, the devs have also referred to the offspring of an elf and a human as "elf-blooded". Feynriel is elf-blooded. So is Alistair. We have no idea what that really means yet, but elf-blooded humans appear to just be regular humans.

[BuddyL0ve]

But I'm pretty sure Bioware has said on multiple occasions that elf + human results in a child that looks fully human. And presumably if that child grows up and has a child with an elf, then their child will also look human. You don't get gradually elfier. Elf + human does not result in a hybrid.

 

That said, the devs have also referred to the offspring of an elf and a human as "elf-blooded". Feynriel is elf-blooded. So is Alistair. We have no idea what that really means yet, but elf-blooded humans appear to just be regular humans.

Elf-blooded means one parent was an elf. Not a lot more than that from what I can tell. Feynriel was a glitch or someone not paying enough attention to their own lore in editing. He should be 100% human in appearance. The devs have gone on records multiple times that their are no half-races.

[angelofsol]

Feynriel doesn't strike me as looking fully human.  To boot, if elven + human always = human... outside of maybe, maybe the Dalish the numbers game practically dictates there would be next to no elves left, period.  The rampant romping with elven servants, rape in alienages, violent deaths through purgings, mistresses, etc.... a couple of centuries ago the city elves really should have dissappeared.

I'd be interested if BioWare has put out something in stone as I've never heard about it being solidly that way.

[Ashevajak]

That's also a possibility. Though Abelas also has vallaslin.

 

Though if slaves were the ones doing all of the physical labour, then why would you want them to be smaller?

 

Could simply be down to poor diet.  Slave implies they weren't especially well valued or looked after, and almost certainly didn't eat as well as the elven noble caste.  Any population with a small protein intake is likely to be physically smaller than those with a more protein rich diet.

[angelofsol]

The devs have gone on records multiple times that their are no half-races.

If that's the case it could then simply being the OGB alluding to maybe Levellan's blood being of a higher caste of elves.  Who knows.  I take things that BioWare releases with a grain of salt as they don't seem to have a problem slightly revamping things when it suits them.

[FiveThreeTen]

A human? Sure. But treating a dwarf or city elf like **** right from the get go? Just no.

Not enough for me to paint them as "all evilz". I don't know, they don't provoke that sort of strong feelings with me

They treated Briala like garbage too and don't consider city elves as their people. Which just made it sting even more when Abelas pretty much said the same thing to my Dalish, or when Solas said it.

 

The new engine kind of helped me to appreciate elves more too. It's easier to appreciate their history when it's presented so beautifully. The ruins in DA:O and DA2 just couldn't do it justice.

"They" being one clan. Zathrian clan also doesn't give a warm welcome either (are they even nice to a Dalish Warden?). They are other examples of clans being more welcoming.

 

Elf-blooded means one parent was an elf. Not a lot more than that from what I can tell. Feynriel was a glitch or someone not paying enough attention to their own lore in editing. He should be 100% human in appearance. The devs have gone on records multiple times that their are no half-races.

This is quite possible, I only managed to find this quote from Gaider on the matter, and it mostly deals with why they didn't implement a half elf origin:

Spoiler

[BuddyL0ve]

Feynriel doesn't strike me as looking fully human.  To boot, if elven + human always = human... outside of maybe, maybe the Dalish the numbers game practically dictates there would be next to no elves left, period.  The rampant romping with elven servants, rape in alienages, violent deaths through purgings, mistresses, etc.... a couple of centuries ago the city elves really should have dissappeared.

I'd be interested if BioWare has put out something in stone as I've never heard about it being solidly that way.

"The children of elves and humans are "human" by all appearances and are generally referred to as "Elf-blooded". They may be referred to as "half-elf" in a slanderous fashion. Children of elves and dwarves are dwarven to all appearances, and such offspring are extremely rare. This is due to a number of reasons. a)the small number of dwarves in Thedas, the elves are reclusive in mating with other races as their offspring would not be an elf c) mating between different species does not easily produce children d) the fertility rate of dwarves is very small."

From David Gaider, when asked about half-races. 

EDIT: Ninja'd by FiveThreeTen! Wahah!

[adun12345]

On the elven slave issue: although slavery in the modern world has generally been identified with chattle labor, historically slaves of some sort or another have fulfilled a variety of functions.  In many premodern societies (Egypt, Syria, Rome), the social status of a slave could vary greatly, depending on the status of the slave's owner, and the purpose that the slave fulfilled.  Amongst the Ottomans, slaves in the imperial bureaucracy and the emperor's household were largely responsible for administering the empire, fighting its wars, and determining its succession.  For many centuries, Egypt was ruled by a dynasty of slave-warriors, the Mamlukes.

 

So, even if facial tattoos are associated with ancient elven slavery, it doesn't necessarily follow that they were also associated with low social status.  Just some food for thought.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Every group in Thedas will get their bad moment...

 

We have done it with everyone...

 

Now the one next up on the block is The Qun...

 

I mean, this is Bioware after all, the survive on fan tears and fan rage...

[OHB MajorV]

But I'm pretty sure Bioware has said on multiple occasions that elf + human results in a child that looks fully human. And presumably if that child grows up and has a child with an elf, then their child will also look human. You don't get gradually elfier. Elf + human does not result in a hybrid.

That said, the devs have also referred to the offspring of an elf and a human as "elf-blooded". Feynriel is elf-blooded. So is Alistair. We have no idea what that really means yet, but elf-blooded humans appear to just be regular humans.

I never noticed it but this loudly echoes the Greek Demi-god stories. Does it mean the full blooded elves were gods? Who knows but it certainly falls in line with the premise of gods mating with humans.

[OHB MajorV]

On the elven slave issue: although slavery in the modern world has generally been identified with chattle labor, historically slaves of some sort or another have fulfilled a variety of functions. In many premodern societies (Egypt, Syria, Rome), the social status of a slave could vary greatly, depending on the status of the slave's owner, and the purpose that the slave fulfilled. Amongst the Ottomans, slaves in the imperial bureaucracy and the emperor's household were largely responsible for administering the empire, fighting its wars, and determining its succession. For many centuries, Egypt was ruled by a dynasty of slave-warriors, the Mamlukes.

So, even if facial tattoos are associated with ancient elven slavery, it doesn't necessarily follow that they were also associated with low social status. Just some food for thought.

Yeah the idea of being a slave in modern society hinges on our views of American slavery and what we think was Egyptian slavery (indentured servitude that involves torture and deadly physical labor) but history says some slaves enjoyed better lives than than the lower class or 3rd world countries of our modern world for sure.

Does it make it ok? No! It should put the idea of slaves in a different perspective though.

[lyleoffmyspace]

I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one who noticed, but the new lore and information put the Dalish in a new perspective, and not a very good one.

 

First, the whole thing about them not really knowing their past at all. That's excusable to a degree, they're holding on to whatever scraps they think is Elven culture, even former slave tatoos. But the sheer ignorance is rather unfortunate for a group that seems to pride itself on being the last remnant of True Elven Culture and had a huge chip on their shoulders because of it. It seems even Morrigan knows more of elves than the Dalish.

 

Still, not as bad as the wonderful custom of dumping excess mages out the camp at seven and letting them fend for themselves. No friggin wonder Minaeve is pissed off at them and wants nothing to do with hr own culture. The Circles still seem preferable than being thrown into the wide world with no family, no clan, no protection, and no anti-demon training. Maybe not all clans practice this custom, true, but it's still an awful thing to do to a child.

 

Then, we learn from the Dalish on Solas's first personal quest (where you activate the Elven artifact) that her Keeper summoned a demon that wiped out the entre clan. How many Keepers or First did we see use dangerous magic to the detriment of their clan now? Zathrian, Merill, and now this. These folks don't seem to have much discipline with their magic.

 

And then, the final nail in the coffin comes in the Knights's Tomb: for some time it was (mostly) accepted that Red Crossing was an excuse by the Chantry to wipe out the Dales. Turns out, the Dalish did attack the town, for no other reason than one of their own decided not to follow their creed (so much for freedom eh?). So while the Exalted March might have been overkill, coupled with the fact that the Dalish refused to help during the Second Bligth it's still hard to feel sorry for them.

 

I am still a proud Dalish elf. 

 

I think you'll find throughout history that a lot of traditions which people are proud of came from negative things. I don't really see a difference in Christians wearing crucifixes to display their religion (Christians were crucified for their faith back in biblical times) and the Dalish wearing their slave markings as proud artefacts of their culture. 

 

The mage thing is a crappy thing to do, but no worse than the institutionalised slavery that the Chantry enacted on mages in the Circles.

 

Desperate times call for desperate measures. We've seen hundreds of mages resort to summoning demons and using blood magic for protections throughout the series so far - human AND elvish - it's revisionism at its finest to paint this as a purely Dalish problem.

 

Sure, Red Crossing was a dick move by a group of Dalish elves, it's still no excuse by the barbaric humans to wipe out an entire civilisation. I can't believe you're excusing attempted genocide by "they had it coming".

[Jock Cranley]

You'd have to be a top notch PR consultant/liar to make the Dalish look good.

 

They are pathetic, weak, and backwards by nature.

[jellobell]

You'd have to be a top notch PR consultant/liar to make the Dalish look good.

 

They are pathetic, weak, and backwards by nature.

You know, posts like these make me sad. So do the ones that argue that the Dalish are always 100% justified. It's just such a black and white way of thinking about things. The Dalish have a lot of nuance to them, especially after Inquisition. 

[Dark Helmet]

I know! It's Glorious!

[Ashagar]

All the races and cultures are very complex though I have to admit I tend to prefer the dwarves and the city elves, I wish we could have seen the Highover Alienage given it sounded quite nice which isn't surprising given how nice the Couslands were and are to everyone including people they perhaps shouldn't have like the Howes.

[Jock Cranley]

You know, posts like these make me sad. So do the ones that argue that the Dalish are always 100% justified. It's just such a black and white way of thinking about things. The Dalish have a lot of nuance to them, especially after Inquisition. 

 

The Dalish are the least relevant out of all the factions in Dragon Age. 

[Mecha Elf]

ive always hated the dalish tbh...

I care more about the city elves plight than the dalish.

I hope the next DA game we get to be a city elf they seem like theyd be more involved than a dalish PC.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Sure, Red Crossing was a dick move by a group of Dalish elves, it's still no excuse by the barbaric humans to wipe out an entire civilisation. I can't believe you're excusing attempted genocide by "they had it coming".

You need to read more of the codices.

 

Red Crossing was hardly the extent of the Dalish aggression.  The Dalish tore through all of Southern Thedas, destroying all major human settlements and cities in their path, had sacked Monstimmard, and were on the verge of torching and razing Val Royeaux when the Exalted March was called by the Chantry.  This was not a case of "savage humans overreacting as always".  This was a full-on race war.  And the elves started it.  And they kept going at it.  The only thing that stopped the elves was getting curb-stomped and having their homeland razed and salted.  I liken it to the way the Krogan were in Mass Effect's history. 

 

You simply cannot cherry-pick certain parts of the material and claim that the Dalish were victims.  You're being selective and embracing only the parts that support the Dalish perspective.  Man up and admit that you're being biased.

[Patchwork]

The three mages per clan thing just seems like an unnecessary retcon, the Dalish were getting torn down enough in DAI without throwing that one in.  Was it to add to the argument for circles/templars? Maybe but they were painted as cruel for the sake of being making them cruel, the girl could have just as easily been taken to a local Chantry or Circle by one of the clan's hunters.  

 

The Keeper in TME was stupid for summoning a demon but it's worth pointing out that it couldn't entice any of the elves to free him. Michel and co freed him knowing full well the demon was going to slaughter the clan. I can't blame any elf for not wanting to get involved in human wars especially when the one making the offer is Words Are Cheap Celene. 

[OHB MajorV]

ive always hated the dalish tbh...
I care more about the city elves plight than the dalish.
I hope the next DA game we get to be a city elf they seem like theyd be more involved than a dalish PC.

I've also been more attracted to the mainstream elves, If anything they were burnerd in DA:I. Looking back after the epilogue it leaves me wondering if they were the more reasonable group all along. Willing to roll with the punches and see history for what it is as opposed to worshiping ancient traditions that have no basis other than written word.