102 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

You need to read more of the codices.

 

Red Crossing was hardly the extent of the Dalish aggression.  The Dalish tore through all of Southern Thedas, destroying all major human settlements and cities in their path, had sacked Monstimmard, and were on the verge of torching and razing Val Royeaux when the Exalted March was called by the Chantry.  This was not a case of "savage humans overreacting as always".  This was a full-on race war.  And the elves started it.  And they kept going at it.  The only thing that stopped the elves was getting curb-stomped and having their homeland razed and salted.  I liken it to the way the Krogan were in Mass Effect's history. 

 

You simply cannot cherry-pick certain parts of the material and claim that the Dalish were victims.  You're being selective and embracing only the parts that support the Dalish perspective.  Man up and admit that you're being biased.

Which codices say that?

 

I've also been more attracted to the mainstream elves, If anything they were back burnerd in DA:I. Looking back after the epilogue it leaves me wondering if they were the more reasonable group all along. Willing to roll with the punches and see history for what it is as opposed to worshiping ancient traditions that have no basis other than written word.

Well really what's the difference between city elves and poor humans? And what's so unreasonable about wanting to reclaim the Dalish traditions?

[10K]

I actually think the Dalish are even more cooler?
Because they're even more tragic.
 
It's highly possible they are the descendant of the slaves of Arlathan , at one point they got free from the most powerful magical empire.
Then they got preyed upon by Tevinter , they managed to free themselves again fighting alongside Andraste.
Then they got a land and those people tried to recreate their own version of the elven empire , thinking their ancestors were nobles and stuff...
They got again destroyed.
The Dalish decided they'd rather live in forest than to bow down to human culture.
 
At the very least it shows those people are resistant , they keep on fighting and losing maybe , but they're still trying ...

"We are the last elvhen, never again shall we submit."

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Which codices say that?

 

Well really what's the difference between city elves and poor humans? And what's so unreasonable about wanting to reclaim the Dalish traditions?

Let me go back and find the sources cited in the DA Wikia.  Some of the entries are from DAO, and some are from after DAI came out.  If I can, I will take screencaps to show what I am talking about.  I am a stickler for trying to stay as canon as possible, so I I don't mind finding the entries, just might take me some time following the trail.

[Lumix19]

Let me go back and find the sources cited in the DA Wikia.  Some of the entries are from DAO, and some are from after DAI came out.  If I can, I will take screencaps to show what I am talking about.  I am a stickler for trying to stay as canon as possible, so I I don't mind finding the entries, just might take me some time following the trail.

No problem. I'm just interested to read them. I'll have a look through the DA:I codices since I fired up my ps.

[OHB MajorV]

Which codices say that?

Well really what's the difference between city elves and poor humans? And what's so unreasonable about wanting to reclaim the Dalish traditions?

It's not unreasonable, but it is unrealistic. Considering they share no core common beliefs. They're not trying to implement dalish beliefs in modern society. They have their own agenda. Lumping them into one sect is not historically accurate.

[TheLastArchivist]

What's funny is that the Elves in Tolkien's lore also kind of destroyed themselves.

 

In The Silmarillion, we learn they have a tragic history and have repeatedly been challenged and deceived by Morgoth, being led to acts of fraticide, kidnapping, homicide, among others.

 

The whole image of perfection we have from them in Lord of the Rings quickly vanishes. They were just as ambitious and power hungry as humans. They just thought themselves superior because their ancestors had lived with the gods and learned much from them.

 

Just like the ancient elves in DA:I.

[Al Foley]

I would say it is the dalish who make the Dalish look bad.  But I actually must give BioWare props for making a group that should be traditionally sympathetic...IE is less then an ideal power, gets ragged on by local powers, and has a history of being mistreated by the local powers...as less then sympathetic figures.  

[OHB MajorV]

What's funny is that the Elves in Tolkien's lore also kind of destroyed themselves.

In The Silmarillion, we learn they have a tragic history and have repeatedly been challenged and deceived by Morgoth, being led to acts of fraticide, kidnapping, homicide, among others.

The whole image of perfection we have from them in Lord of the Rings quickly vanishes. They were just as ambitious and power hungry as humans. They just thought themselves superior because their ancestors had lived with the gods and learned much from them.

Just like the ancient elves in DA:I.

Remember that time I talked about elves always being depicted as selfish introverts? Peppridge farms remembers.

[Dabrikishaw]

The Dalish revelations brought a smile to my face.

[Nefla]

Yeah, I felt the pendulum swung too far in the other direction with DA:I. In DA:O elves are downtrodden, treated like animals, used and abused an are innocent victims that just wanted to be left alone. In DA:I they're portrayed as scumbags. Even your fellow elf companions don't like your elf-ness.

[Giantdeathrobot]

What's funny is that the Elves in Tolkien's lore also kind of destroyed themselves.

 

In The Silmarillion, we learn they have a tragic history and have repeatedly been challenged and deceived by Morgoth, being led to acts of fraticide, kidnapping, homicide, among others.

 

The whole image of perfection we have from them in Lord of the Rings quickly vanishes. They were just as ambitious and power hungry as humans. They just thought themselves superior because their ancestors had lived with the gods and learned much from them.

 

Just like the ancient elves in DA:I.

 

Yeah, Tolkien's elves change a lot based on the books.

 

In The Hobbit they are forest-dwellers, living in a cave and frankly aren't much more wise than anyone else.

 

In LOTR they are basically the very image of perfection, with their only flaw being they mope all day about their situation rather than try and fix it. Hell, almost every single time soemone else than Gimli is seen as admirable, the narrative makes a point of saying that it's because he has Elfish blood somewhere up the line, or look slike an Elf or acts like an Elf or whatnot. To me it got tiring very fast.

 

Then the Silmarillion does almost a 180 and they become (or well, were) a disorganized bunch who make awful decision after awful decision and get themselves stomped by Morgoth time and again, until the Valar got tired of their stupidity and bailed them out. And let's not forget the Sons of Feanor who went crazy and started massacres that wouldn't be out of place in A Song of Ice and Fire. That was more interesting to read.

 

Dalish are more consistent; I always felt since the beginning that their facade of proud guardians of True Elven Culture was just that, a facade. But Inquisition really piles up the tragedy on them, and on the Elven race in general. I think that the Dragon Age elves are my favorite ones in fantasy fiction now. They no longer seem like just another part of the standard fantasy setting. 

[Aesir26]

Yeah, I felt the pendulum swung too far in the other direction with DA:I. In DA:O elves are downtrodden, treated like animals, used and abused an are innocent victims that just wanted to be left alone. In DA:I they're portrayed as scumbags. Even your fellow elf companions don't like your elf-ness.

 

I really have to agree that there always seems to be a very black and white portrayal of the Dalish we come across. I really hope that Bioware finds sort of a medium between the two like they seem to have done with humans and dwarves.

[Evamitchelle]

No problem. I'm just interested to read them. I'll have a look through the DA:I codices since I fired up my ps.

 

It's in The World of Thedas' timeline: in 2:10 Glory "the elves capture Montsimmard, a major strategic settlement in Orlais, then march on Val Royeaux", then the following entry is "Divine Renata I calls for a holy war against the elves. This becomes known as the Exalted March of the Dales." If you play as an elf in DAI you can also talk to Mother Giselle about the Exalted March of the Dales, and she'll mention the elves capturing Montsimmard and attacking Val Royeaux as well (though unlike the book she's not exactly an objective source). I think I've seen it some codex entries in DAI as well but I can't remember which ones. 

 

Also keep in mind when talking about the Dalish that all clans are different from one another. They've been leading a nomadic lifestyle all over Thedas for about 700 years now, and only meet each other once every ten years. You can't treat them as a single entity. Minaeve's clan abandoned her when she showed magic, but the Sabrae clan took in a half-elven teenage mage the templars were already looking for, and Alerion and Lavellan send their surplus mages to other clans who don't have enough mages of their own. 

[skotie]

I get the feeling why they got a lot of thier history wrong has to do with how they live. I mean think about it for a bit, how many times have they just stumbled on some elvan ruins only to pick up and move again because they ticked off the local humans and have to out run an angry mob... again!

 

They at least got part of the vallaslin right. The ancient elves did use it, but no way near what they thought. I am interested in seeing how they react once they know the whole truth though. I mean I can't see them just being like "Well alright I guess we enslave our own people to appease our gods or something *shrug*" I mean you can't live like the Dalish for as long as they have then just give up and become slaves again!

[BuddyL0ve]

I get the feeling why they got a lot of thier history wrong has to do with how they live. I mean think about it for a bit, how many times have they just stumbled on some elvan ruins only to pick up and move again because they ticked off the local humans and have to out run an angry mob... again!

 

They at least got part of the vallaslin right. The ancient elves did use it, but no way near what they thought. I am interested in seeing how they react once they know the whole truth though. I mean I can't see them just being like "Well alright I guess we enslave our own people to appease our gods or something *shrug*" I mean you can't live like the Dalish for as long as they have then just give up and become slaves again!

They'll say "no, they are not slave stamps."
You'll say, "Yes, they are. The Dread Wolf himself said so!"
They'll say, "Oh? Where is this Dread Wolf?"
You'll say, "... oh bugger. Nevermind."

It changes nothing.

[skotie]

Which codices say that?

 

Well really what's the difference between city elves and poor humans? And what's so unreasonable about wanting to reclaim the Dalish traditions?

The difference between city elves and poor humans is poor humans are actually better off, or so were lead to believe.

 

Also as far as the information the chantry gives us seriously I call bullshit. The chantry changes history to fit it's veiw any time they want, removing the verses about Shartan in the chant of light is proof of that. They always make it out like humans are in the right, but look at the human society in the game, need I say more? Fact is human citys are still around, the Dales was completely destroyed and thier land taken. I'm more inclinded to side with the elves as far as who was right.

[Chuvvy]

The Dalish have always had their heads so far up their ass they couldn't see what was right in front of them. Merrill and Sera might be idiots, but they're right about the Dalish not doing anything to help elves. They just wander thedas with a thousand year old grudge yelling about their heritage to anyone they see. Despite knowing almost nothing about it. Things aren't great for elves, but they've also had a 1,000 years to do something about it and haven't.

 

"The dales"

 

The Dalish do love to paint themselves as blameless victims of the tyrannical chantry, but it's not so. The Dalish refused to help during the blight, and let humans die by the thousands while keeping them out of their borders. Then, after the blight ended, they started attacking human settlements on their borders, then the chantry slapped the **** out of them and they recoil like "wtf m8 we dinny do nuffing". To say the issue is as black and white as the Dalish tell you it is at every chance is ridiculous. Like the dude in the Dalish origin in DAO. "THE EVIL HUMANS SIMPLY WOULDN'T LET US BE! THEY WERE THIRSTY FOR BLOOD! THEY HATED OUR GODS AND HATED US EVEN MORE!"

 

Codex entry if anyone's interested.

 

Spoiler

In their attempt to regain the lost glory of Elvhenan, the elves cut themselves off from their human neighbors. Throughout the Second Blight, which lasted for most of the Divine Age, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. According to human accounts, border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. The Dalish claim the war started after the Chantry sent templars into their sovereign territory after the elves kicked their missionaries out of the Dales. By 2:10 Glory, elven forces had captured Montsimmard and were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux.

 

At this point, the Chantry called for a holy war against the elves that became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sacked Val Royeaux and pushed well into human lands, Halamshiral was conquered and the elves were completely crushed by 2:20 Glory. The Dales were appropriated by the Orlesians, who uprooted elven settlements and forbade worship of the elven gods.

[skotie]

They'll say "no, they are not slave stamps."
You'll say, "Yes, they are. The Dread Wolf himself said so!"
They'll say, "Oh? Where is this Dread Wolf?"
You'll say, "... oh bugger. Nevermind."

It changes nothing.

Because I could just go up to the divine and say "What's Up! I'm the Maker!" and she would believe me right?

[skotie]

The Dalish have always had their heads so far up their ass they couldn't see what was right in front of them. Merrill and Sera might be idiots, but they're right about the Dalish not doing anything to help elves. They just wander thedas with a thousand year old grudge yelling about their heritage to anyone they see. Despite knowing almost nothing about it. Things aren't great for elves, but they've also had a 1,000 years to do something about it and haven't.

 

"The dales"

 

The Dalish do love to paint themselves as blameless victims of the tyrannical chantry, but it's not so. The Dalish refused to help during the blight, and let humans die by the thousands while keeping them out of their borders. Then, after the blight ended, they started attacking human settlements on their borders, then the chantry slapped the **** out of them and they recoil like "wtf m8 we dinny do nuffing". To say the issue is as black and white as the Dalish tell you it is at every chance is ridiculous. Like the dude in the Dalish origin in DAO. "THE EVIL HUMANS SIMPLY WOULDN'T LET US BE! THEY WERE THIRSTY FOR BLOOD! THEY HATED OUR GODS AND HATED US EVEN MORE!"

 

Codex entry if anyone's interested.

 

Spoiler

In their attempt to regain the lost glory of Elvhenan, the elves cut themselves off from their human neighbors. Throughout the Second Blight, which lasted for most of the Divine Age, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. According to human accounts, border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. The Dalish claim the war started after the Chantry sent templars into their sovereign territory after the elves kicked their missionaries out of the Dales. By 2:10 Glory, elven forces had captured Montsimmard and were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux.

 

At this point, the Chantry called for a holy war against the elves that became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sacked Val Royeaux and pushed well into human lands, Halamshiral was conquered and the elves were completely crushed by 2:20 Glory. The Dales were appropriated by the Orlesians, who uprooted elven settlements and forbade worship of the elven gods.

According to human accounts- This is all I need to read

 

Why? Because all the elvan accounts were destroyed.

 

So we really just got the cops word that this guy was a dangerous criminal who needed to be killed right? That about sums it up for me.

 

Edit: Just thought about something anyone know the reasons for Orlais's takeover of Fereldan as well? I'm guessing they were also righteous champions of the maker's justice in that case as well?

 

When it comes to who's at fault what's easier to believe guys, that once the elves finally had a homeland they would attempt a hostile takeover that was doomed to fail, from a race of people who almost always avoid fighting when they can, or a country of nobles who kill each other for sport, who also took over and enslaved thier neighbors.

[EmissaryofLies]

It was a complete wash and it disgusts me...

 

The Mages fared no better.

 

Not sure what Bioware has against either group but their determination to see them eat sh*t is turning me off.

[Evamitchelle]

Edit: Just thought about something anyone know the reasons for Orlais's takeover of Fereldan as well? I'm guessing they were also righteous champions of the maker's justice in that case as well?

 

There's not really a reason beyond the fact that Orlais has been an expansionist empire since Emperor Kordillus Drakon. They've invaded, or tried to invade, pretty much every country in Thedas except Orzammar (their lyrium suppliers) and Antiva (because Queen Asha married her children and grandchildren into every important noble/royal family in Thedas). The first invasion of Ferelden started in 4:80 Black, the second, successful, invasion of Ferelden started in 8:24 Blessed with Emperor Reville.

 

Also I find it pretty funny that people who bring up the elves not helping Orlais during the Second Blight never bring up the fact that Orlais did pretty much the exact same thing during the Fourth Blight. 

[TheJediSaint]

What's funny is that the Elves in Tolkien's lore also kind of destroyed themselves.

 

In The Silmarillion, we learn they have a tragic history and have repeatedly been challenged and deceived by Morgoth, being led to acts of fraticide, kidnapping, homicide, among others.

 

The whole image of perfection we have from them in Lord of the Rings quickly vanishes. They were just as ambitious and power hungry as humans. They just thought themselves superior because their ancestors had lived with the gods and learned much from them.

 

Just like the ancient elves in DA:I.

Elves and tragedy go together like Gnomes and pointy hats.

[Evamitchelle]

Also I find it pretty funny that people who bring up the elves not helping Orlais during the Second Blight never bring up the fact that Orlais did pretty much the exact same thing during the Fourth Blight. 

 

And on a tangential note, looking back at Orlais' track record regarding past Blights, it makes Loghain's refusal to let the Orlesians help during the Fifth Blight seem a lot more reasonable:

• First Blight: no Orlesian Empire yet.
• Second Blight: helped the Anderfels and the Free Marches, then conquered them.
• Third Blight: helped the Free Marches after pressure from the Wardens, then conquered them.
• Fourth Blight: only sent a token force.

And considering Orlais had unwillingly left Ferelden only 30 years before it's no wonder he didn't want the Orlesians' help. 

[skotie]

 

And on a tangential note, looking back at Orlais' track record regarding past Blights, it makes Loghain's refusal to let the Orlesians help during the Fifth Blight seem a lot more reasonable:

• First Blight: no Orlesian Empire yet.
• Second Blight: helped the Anderfels and the Free Marches, then conquered them.
• Third Blight: helped the Free Marches after pressure from the Wardens, then conquered them.
• Fourth Blight: only sent a token force.

And considering Orlais had unwillingly left Ferelden only 30 years before it's no wonder he didn't want the Orlesians' help. 

 

Yeah after my visit to the winter palace I found myself thinking, Wow no wonder Loghain hated these bastards. I mean Ferelden had it's problems to be sure but it wasn't all that bad.

[lyleoffmyspace]

You need to read more of the codices.

 

Red Crossing was hardly the extent of the Dalish aggression.  The Dalish tore through all of Southern Thedas, destroying all major human settlements and cities in their path, had sacked Monstimmard, and were on the verge of torching and razing Val Royeaux when the Exalted March was called by the Chantry.  This was not a case of "savage humans overreacting as always".  This was a full-on race war.  And the elves started it.  And they kept going at it.  The only thing that stopped the elves was getting curb-stomped and having their homeland razed and salted.  I liken it to the way the Krogan were in Mass Effect's history. 

 

You simply cannot cherry-pick certain parts of the material and claim that the Dalish were victims.  You're being selective and embracing only the parts that support the Dalish perspective.  Man up and admit that you're being biased.

 

Only being as biased as OP was.