158 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

I feel like this is the perfect time for that myself. Normally, I let the chargers die for the sake of a qunari alliance.

 

But I've been thinking lately, maybe it'd be smarter to save them and alienate the Qunari.

 

The Inquisition was brought about only because of an extreme state of emergency, and they'll only be around so long as they remain necessary. The Qunari war may be the next challenge to Thedas that would require the power leadership and influence of the inquisition to stop. Or at least hault. And if the war never truly ends but just continues in small skirmishes like with the Tevinter, the Inquisition could find a spot in Thedas permanently.

 

Personally I'm on the opposite end of that stance; one of the key reasons I chose to sacrifice the chargers and make the alliance with the Qunari is that I felt a true alliance between the Qun and a southern power would be the first step in opening a dialogue between the andrastian nations and the Qunari so that the conflict everyone things is inevitable doesn't have to come to a head, or can at least be mitigated if it ultimately happens.

[KingAgamemnon]

I feel like this is the perfect time for that myself. Normally, I let the chargers die for the sake of a qunari alliance.

 

But I've been thinking lately, maybe it'd be smarter to save them and alienate the Qunari.

 

The Inquisition was brought about only because of an extreme state of emergency, and they'll only be around so long as they remain necessary. The Qunari war may be the next challenge to Thedas that would require the power leadership and influence of the inquisition to stop. Or at least hault. And if the war never truly ends but just continues in small skirmishes like with the Tevinter, the Inquisition could find a spot in Thedas permanently.

That is exactly what I thought whenever I chose to save the Chargers. And honestly, can you see an alliance between the Qunari and the rest of Thedas lasting outside of an immediate, world-ending threat? I can't. I figured that as soon as Corypheus was defeated, the next phase in the alliance would be for the Qunari to slowly (or maybe quickly, based on past events) start assimilating the rest of the world. Willyem Trevelyan strongly disagrees with that course of action.

[BubbleDncr]

I think by the time all our DLC ends, the Inquisitor will either be dead, or an "antagonist' in DA4. Meaning, it'll be their fault the world is fucked. So, while ultimately not "the villain," not really someone in the position to help things get better.

[KingAgamemnon]

I think by the time all our DLC ends, the Inquisitor will either be dead, or an "antagonist' in DA4. Meaning, it'll be their fault the world is fucked. So, while ultimately not "the villain," not really someone in the position to help things get better.

Kind of like Shepard after killing all the Batarians after ME2? Interesting. You know, you're probably right about that.

 

Edit: That, or the Inquisitor's final fate is that of a martyr. So while he wouldn't be an "antagonist," as you said, maybe he'd indirectly be the cause of more trouble, ala Jesus of Nazareth or the prophet Muhammad.

[Colonelkillabee]

That is exactly what I thought whenever I chose to save the Chargers. And honestly, can you see an alliance between the Qunari and the rest of Thedas lasting outside of an immediate, world-ending threat? I can't. I figured that as soon as Corypheus was defeated, the next phase in the alliance would be for the Qunari to slowly (or maybe quickly, based on past events) start assimilating the rest of the world. Willyem Trevelyan strongly disagrees with that course of action.

Agreed. The Qunari are too strange to understand even in an alliance, and I think the minute that you think they're committed to peace is the minute you'll do something that to the Qun requires your blood, lol. I'd rather prepare and be ready for the worst than to hope for the best, which is why I think I'll probably be saving the chargers this time, even though I do like the angle of sacrificing warriors for the greater good, since that's what warriors are for.

[Former_Fiend]

I personally find the implication that the only way to resolve the tension with the qunari is through war to be more than a little disturbing.

 

The qunari aren't mindless creatures. They aren't a force of nature. They aren't a hivemind. They are thinking, intelligent people with a rigid and expansionist philosophy. 

 

Diplomacy with them would be difficult and has a high probability of failure, but that doesn't mean it is an option not worth exploring.

 

But the sheer amount of "us or them", "we need to kill them before they assimilate us" mentality I see on these forums bothers me at times, especially given who the qunari serve as an analogue for.

[Jaulen]

It's hard for me to see making an alliance with the Qun (although I will have a ahcracter that does that).

I just see them as using the alliance as a toehold to get into Thedas....or a "Hey, we helped you with Cory, now payback...you need to help us attack Tevinter."
And taht's a battle I know I wouldn't want MY Inquisition getting involved in.

 

I picked the option this playthrough (then reloaded) just to see what happened with IB immediately afterwards.

I also think that it's a little 'quick' for the Inquisitor to get the title of Bass alit an (I know I murdered the spelling). One little quest?

[KingAgamemnon]

I personally find the implication that the only way to resolve the tension with the qunari is through war to be more than a little disturbing.

 

The qunari aren't mindless creatures. They aren't a force of nature. They aren't a hivemind. They are thinking, intelligent people with a rigid and expansionist philosophy. 

 

Diplomacy with them would be difficult and has a high probability of failure, but that doesn't mean it is an option not worth exploring.

 

But the sheer amount of "us or them", "we need to kill them before they assimilate us" mentality I see on these forums bothers me at times, especially given who the qunari serve as an analogue for.

Well, I think you're misunderstanding us here. Or me, at least. I'm not trying to sound like a warhawk. I'm only speaking from this perspective: that the Qunari are the one civilization in Thedas (save the Darkspawn) that is completely different from any other, philosophically speaking; that they have a history of murdering anyone they disagree with; and that the Andrastian Chantry is most assuredly not going to submit to the Qun. I'm not saying the Qunari need to be kerbstomped. I'm saying that the possibility of war with them is less a possibility and more, from my perspective, an inevitability. With my Inquisitor, I would attempt to begin with diplomacy. But the threat of war is too large to think that diplomacy would fix things. Remember: there is no freedom of thought under the Qun. Either you submit, or you're forced to submit. The Chantry has a similar perspective, if a little less hardcore.

[Former_Fiend]

It's hard for me to see making an alliance with the Qun (although I will have a ahcracter that does that).

I just see them as using the alliance as a toehold to get into Thedas....or a "Hey, we helped you with Cory, now payback...you need to help us attack Tevinter."
And taht's a battle I know I wouldn't want MY Inquisition getting involved in.

 

I picked the option this playthrough (then reloaded) just to see what happened with IB immediately afterwards.

I also think that it's a little 'quick' for the Inquisitor to get the title of Bass alit an (I know I murdered the spelling). One little quest?

 

I don't see that. It's not like the qunari didn't have anything at stake with stopping Corypheus. That wasn't a "we'll scratch your back, you scratch ours down the line" deal, that was mutual self interest.

 

And the inquisitor made a history making true alliance with the qunari and helped stop red lyrium from getting to Tevinter. What did Hawke do to get declared Basilit-an? Killed a few people and told the Arishok the truth a few times. Between those two, I'd said what the Inquisitor did was a bigger deal.

[Colonelkillabee]

I personally find the implication that the only way to resolve the tension with the qunari is through war to be more than a little disturbing.

 

The qunari aren't mindless creatures. They aren't a force of nature. They aren't a hivemind. They are thinking, intelligent people with a rigid and expansionist philosophy. 

 

Diplomacy with them would be difficult and has a high probability of failure, but that doesn't mean it is an option not worth exploring.

 

But the sheer amount of "us or them", "we need to kill them before they assimilate us" mentality I see on these forums bothers me at times, especially given who the qunari serve as an analogue for.

If who you think they serve as an analogue for is who I think they serve as an analogue for, then that's the best reason in the world to not even bother with treaties. Not everyone, even reasonable (relatively) individuals with thinking minds will be able to be swayed to peace with diplomacy.

 

Right now, I just don't consider it worth the risk.

[Vox Draco]

Why always death? What is that for an obsession with killing the heroes? No...my Quizzy simply retired, started to study a bit of magic, doing stuff and things, married Cullen and raised some future heroes of Thedas while some other new hero in the meantime saved the world from another maniac in DA4.

[Former_Fiend]

Well, I think you're misunderstanding us here. Or me, at least. I'm not trying to sound like a warhawk. I'm only speaking from this perspective: that the Qunari are the one civilization in Thedas (save the Darkspawn) that is completely different from any other, philosophically speaking; that they have a history of murdering anyone they disagree with; and that the Andrastian Chantry is most assuredly not going to submit to the Qun. I'm not saying the Qunari need to be kerbstomped. I'm saying that the possibility of war with them is less a possibility and more, from my perspective, an inevitability. With my Inquisitor, I would attempt to begin with diplomacy. But the threat of war is too large to think that diplomacy would fix things. Remember: there is no freedom of thought under the Qun. Either you submit, or you're forced to submit. The Chantry has a similar perspective, if a little less hardcore.

 

The complete lack of 'freedom of thought' is an exaggerated point, as Iron Bull explains. The goal is that everyone works for the betterment of society as a whole; people disagree with what that means and it's the duty of the priesthood to interpret and decide. 

The fact that there is internal disagreement and interpretation says to me that there is room for change, and perhaps, co-existence.

 

Now, in character, my inquisitor would oppose a qunari invasion when and if that happened, but he would first and for most try to avoid it's to begin with, and secondly, would work to end it under peaceful terms once it got started. There's more to be gained through cooperation with the qun, if such a thing is possible, than there is in a war that may or may not be winnable. 

[myahele]

An alliance with the Qun is fleeting IMO. While they may respect the inquisitor/inquisition they will be fed up with the rest of Thedas countries. Just like the Arishok tolerated the rest of Kirkwall and respected Hawke it'll be the same with inquisitor and the Qun.

If anything they'll say "why aren't you doing enough to make all the countries as reasonable as you!?"

[Jaulen]

I don't see that. It's not like the qunari didn't have anything at stake with stopping Corypheus. That wasn't a "we'll scratch your back, you scratch ours down the line" deal, that was mutual self interest.

 

And the inquisitor made a history making true alliance with the qunari and helped stop red lyrium from getting to Tevinter. What did Hawke do to get declared Basilit-an? Killed a few people and told the Arishok the truth a few times. Between those two, I'd said what the Inquisitor did was a bigger deal.

 

For me the title rings hollow because it was granted so 'seemingly' quickly. It may be a history making alliance, but the alliance would only last as long as the threat does....so to me it's more of a short term marriage of convienence than a real alliance. And stopping the red lyrium from spreading is in the Inquisition's interest too. Okay, more I think about it, it was just questline that was really given the short end of the stick. I mean come on....the Chargers with the superior position couldn't pick off a handful of enemies before they got to the top of the hill?

[Colonelkillabee]

An alliance with the Qun is fleeting IMO. While they may respect the inquisitor/inquisition they will be fed up with the rest of Thedas countries. Just like the Arishok tolerated the rest of Kirkwall and respected Hawke it'll be the same with inquisitor and the Qun.

If anything they'll say "why aren't you doing enough to make all the countries as reasonable as you!?"

Don't forget Sten's words to the Warden. A handful of badasses won't be enough to prevent war I'm afraid.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm expecting the Inquisition to meet a bloody end now that the Chantry is putting the pieces back together, Orlais is an Empire again and the breach crisis is done.

 

Its a mercenary army without a state or purpose now.

 

Its living on borrowed time.

[Hazegurl]

I think it's a good idea to form an alliance with the Qunari even if war is on the horizon. It opens up dialogue between the two nations as well as intel, albeit minor and controlled intel, but it's a display of goodwill on both sides nonetheless. It shows that the Qunari are willing to negotiate and so on. An alliance does not mean you have to trust them and let your guard down. It just means that both parties are acting in a way that benefits both.  When the Qunari breaks the alliance march to war, at least the Inquisition wouldn't be sitting in the dark with their thumb up their rear end.  The death of the Chargers is a very small price compared to that. But at the end of the day, war is a last resort and I don't see the Qunari going to war unless they believe they can win.

[The Baconer]

I personally find the implication that the only way to resolve the tension with the qunari is through war to be more than a little disturbing.

 

It's because the Qunari have made it clear that they have no intention to settle for anything less.

 

The best way to mitigate a war with the Qunari is to either break them in a period where they cannot resist, or work to create disruption and discord within their society. I guess you could also do both.

[Former_Fiend]

I suppose a lot of my opinions on the qun come from meta standpoints. 

 

I look at the qunari and I see what is perhaps the most unique and interesting facet of a great setting Bioware has crafted and I see that as something worth preserving. I honestly feel that should the qunari be defeated, the setting will be the lesser for it. 

 

I also have a tendency to look at the stranger cultures and creatures in fantasy settings - the outsiders, the designated enemies, the 'other' - and identify more strongly with them than the "hero" races or societies. Now, when it's something like darkspawn or undead that are mindless creatures who exist only for destruction, sure, that's one thing. But when it's an intelligent society, however broken or flawed, I think the blanket assumption that they can only be dealt with through war eternal is a very harmful message to send. 

[Hornless Qunari/Human DPS]

How about that breach mark on your hand's that will never let you go.

[The Baconer]

I would willingly give up all that power. Never wanted it. I had one task: Restore order and close the breach. Now leave me alone

 

Good idea. Personally I would try to cement the Inquisition's hold on the Lyrium trade and strike up a business in banking and money-lending (and I know some of these nations are going to need it).

[Master Warder Z_]

Good idea. Personally I would try to cement the Inquisition's hold on the Lyrium trade and strike up a business in banking and money-lending (and I know some of these nations are going to need it).

 

That would probably cause more issues then most avenues the Inquisition could take.

 

Even in game the Chantry was pissed off about that.

[KingAgamemnon]

The complete lack of 'freedom of thought' is an exaggerated point, as Iron Bull explains. The goal is that everyone works for the betterment of society as a whole; people disagree with what that means and it's the duty of the priesthood to interpret and decide. 

The fact that there is internal disagreement and interpretation says to me that there is room for change, and perhaps, co-existence.

 

Now, in character, my inquisitor would oppose a qunari invasion when and if that happened, but he would first and for most try to avoid it's to begin with, and secondly, would work to end it under peaceful terms once it got started. There's more to be gained through cooperation with the qun, if such a thing is possible, than there is in a war that may or may not be winnable. 

Taking one person's word on an entire culture is never a good idea, and when the culture breeds its followers to think the same thoughts, it's even worse. I heard what Bull said. I've heard what every Qunari has said in all three games. It doesn't change the fact that, when it really comes down to it, you are either with the Qun or you are forced to be with the Qun. I understand what the Qun is - trust me, I really do. And there's always room for change in any culture, because that's what makes people people. Only the most rudimentary logic-based system has no room for internal growth. The issue here isn't that the Qunari may or may not be able to coexist with the other species of Thedas - that's already been shown to be possible, since it happens everywhere they go. What they can't - at least right now - do is coexist with the separate ideologies of Thedas. There is only room for the Qun in the Qun. I really thought that had been made obvious. Even Iron Bull said that the party members who would do well under the Qun, if they didn't die fighting, are Cullen and Cassandra because they love following orders. So while the "freedom of thought" argument is exaggerated, it really isn't that exaggerated.

 

Edit: On another note, I do agree with your more recent post about the loss of the Qunari being a tragedy. I certainly don't dislike them. I just don't see peaceful coexistence being an option with the Chantry, Tevinter, or the more free of the Free Marches. And when it comes down to it, while I don't hate the Qunari, I don't like them as much as I like the other guys.

[Master Warder Z_]

o.o Sera would get Qumek if i recall that conversation and end up sweeping the floor for a Baker.