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Is Justice/Vengeance a spirit or a demon?


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#26
Dean_the_Young

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Ok, so correct me if I'm wrong about any of this but this is what I understand about spirits and demons having played all three Dragon Age games.

A spirit and a demon are essentially the same species, what distinguishes them are the emotions they represent as well as their motive.  While a spirit is defined by positive emotions, a demon represents bad or potentially destructive emotions.  Also, spirits are not generally interested in seeing the world through mortal eyes whereas demons actively seek to possess people.
 

 

I don't believe this. Or rather, I don't believe this is true enough for a meaningful categorical distinction.

 

'Spirits' and 'Demons' appears to be a mostly Andrastian prism for looking at the fade, but it's primary weakness is that it's an ex post facto label- a judgement of what a spirit actually did, rather than a compositional or categorical distinction. Demons are demons because they are bad. Ergo, spirits are good because if they weren't they would be bad and thus demons. But since demons must be bad, a demon that isn't bad must be a spirit, and vice versa.

 

This might be good enough for theology, but it really isn't enough for science- and there certainly isn't enough hard evidence to really justify such broad-based conclusions. We certainly know that there are 'spirits' who are interested in the world... and thanks to Cole, we know not only that a manifesting spirit may not only act in a way that bystanders consider 'demonic' even as they fulfill their aspect, but that some spirits will hide their presence or even wipe memories of witnesses. So the manifestation of 'spirits' is going to be under-reported... similar to how the reports of demons are going to be over-represented, because demons are identified primarily by bad news and bad news travels fast and has a tendency to warp and repeat itself and all that. Whether demons are more likely than spirits to take interest in the world is something that could only be concluded if we had some reasonably accurate census of all demons, to take poll of some sort and see how many demons are content to stay in the Fade... or have manifestations that aren't particularly noticable by the world. The Nightmare, for example, was/is an incredibly powerful demon... but it also stayed in the Fade and it's actions virtually unnoticed by the real world.

 

Even aside from the reporting challenges, identity distinction is even harder because of an acknowledged tendency for the nature of spirits to twist under outside influences. Whether through merging with someone else's views of the concept (how Anders's concept of Justice led to obsession over a single category of injustice), being bound and pushed against it's precept (Solas's mission), or simply changing under the observation of expectations held by others (Solas dialogue). Being a spirit isn't a compositional identity, but a state of being as much transitional as anything else.

 

There's quite a bit we don't know. Are demons naturally formed, or only the result of corrupted spirits? If 'spirits' can become 'demons,' can demons become spirits? Is the fade a collective unconsciousness given form, or a separate medium which is shaped by a mixture of many small careless thoughts and fewer greater focused thoughts to give birth to an 'identity'? Is 'corruption' of a spirit even a meaningful perjorative for beings which can be changed merely through interaction with others with different viewpoints?

 

 

But for me, I eschew the concept of 'spirits' and 'demons' as meaningfully different and just lump them all under spirits. All spirits are dangerous- they are obsessed with their concept and have little emotional balance or maturity and limited intellectual awareness, to the point that even an aspect of compassion can be a serial killer. Some spirits (whether 'spirits' or 'demons') might have natures or contexts that can be channeled productively- but only so long as their needs and means to fulfill their aspect aligns with your context. If it doesn't, they can be forces of nature.


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#27
Ajna

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technically he's a spirit of vengence but yes


Is it weird that I read this in Solas' voice?
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#28
xLawGamerx

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As has been mentioned, it isn't as simple as spirit/demon, as fade entities can go from one to the other and back again. My read on it was that Justice probably started out as a "spirit" and then became more of a "demo," for two reasons:

 

1. We know that fade entities conform themselves to the expectations of mortal minds. Mortal minds, Andrastian ones in particular, tend to view the issue as dichotomous; something is either a spirit or a demon, but not both. Since Anders is Andrastian and follows that manner of thinking, his perception of his relationship with Justice is going to have a big effect on what Justice is and how he behaves. 

 

No matter whether you take the friendship or rivalry path with Anders in DAII, it is apparent that because of his upbringing he can never quite leave behind the concept that merging with Justice has made him an abomination. Because he perceives himself this way, Justice therefore conforms to meet Anders' mental expectations, thus becoming closer and closer to a demon.

 

2. According to Solas, a demon is just a spirit that is perverted or prevented from carrying out its original purpose. Based on his personal quest in DA:I, we seem to have first-hand evidence that this is at least mostly true, since the Pride Demon you fight ends up turning into a less hostile spirit when defeated.

 

Looking at DAII, I think there is an argument that Anders' actions are perverting Justice's purpose. Justice wants to right wrongs and punish the guilty. However, because of his nature, he also needs to do this in a way that actually is "just." In other words, punish the guilty without harming innocents (since that would be "unjust"). For example, finding and killing Templars who forcibly tranquil mages? Probably O.K. Blowing up a Chantry full of innocent people? Not O.K., since it's hurting innocents for crimes they didn't commit.


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#29
Tevinter Soldier

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Spirits are spirits good and evil is a matter of perspective.

Demon is a name given to spirits who follow paths people of thedas do not like.



#30
Sifr

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Was also a point about how Anders' personal quest in awakening involved fighting off a templar trying to take him back; prior to that, Anders' ran from templars and surrendered when caught. The Warden/Commander essentially taught him to fight. 

 

The Warden-Commander also introduced Anders and Justice to the carte-blanche methods the Grey Wardens employ to save the world and the idea that sometimes you need to do extreme things to make the world a better place, even if that means crossing the line.

 

And it probably didn't help to teach a Spirit of Justice, a motto that includes the line, "In War, Victory"...


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#31
CreepingShadow

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Anders is a demon. :devil:


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#32
Otter-under-the-mountain

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Well, OP, you're missing spirits of purpose, which Solas mentioned knowing. He also said that they're the other side of desire. And horsemaster Dennet speculated that whatever's in the Bog Unicorn is a spirit of freedom or loyalty, though he probably wouldn't know if those actually exist.

 

Also, Imshael (in the book at least) doesn't seem to match up to any type of demon we've seen so far. He seems perfectly happy offering desires or flattering people's pride, and Lienne was shocked that he could come up with more than one way to kill people. Going by his dialogue, the only thing I can think of that he would be a spirit of is free will, which has some disturbing implications, so I'd rather stop thinking about him now.

 

As for Vengance, yes, I would say he's a demon, in the sense that vengence is a corrupted version of justice. But you could also say he's just a spirit of type justice, with the subtype vengance. So it's not really that simple, unless you want to simplify matters enough to say that Cole is a desire demon (after all, he does fulfill people's desire not to feel pain), or that a spirit of, for example, satisfaction, is a pride demon because it encourages you to celebrate your accomplishments.

 

Classification systems like the one we have for the Spirit/Demon Spectrum of Fade Thingies are really more for convenience of talking about the things than it is for describing the things themselves.



#33
myahele

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I wonder if The Nightmare demon was a compassion spirit.

Cole helps people by making them forget, and it was mentioned by Giselle about making people forget/hiding things from people is a mistake born of compassion.

The Nightmare Demon does like to make people forget their fears.

#34
Dean_the_Young

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I wonder if The Nightmare demon was a compassion spirit.

Cole helps people by making them forget, and it was mentioned by Giselle about making people forget/hiding things from people is a mistake born of compassion.

The Nightmare Demon does like to make people forget their fears.

 

Good catch. I'll have to take Cole there next time.



#35
jellobell

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Also, Imshael (in the book at least) doesn't seem to match up to any type of demon we've seen so far. He seems perfectly happy offering desires or flattering people's pride, and Lienne was shocked that he could come up with more than one way to kill people. Going by his dialogue, the only thing I can think of that he would be a spirit of is free will, which has some disturbing implications, so I'd rather stop thinking about him now.

Well he calls himself a "choice spirit", so I'd say you're right.



#36
Kantr

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I think that's ambiguous too. Look at Flemeth and Mythal. To a lesser extent Wynne and Faith. They seem pretty in control to me. Deep down Anders was volatile and the idea of Justice can be be volatile and what you got was that monster in DA2.

Wynne kept her faith though, while Mythal is possibly slumbering

 

Well, OP, you're missing spirits of purpose, which Solas mentioned knowing. He also said that they're the other side of desire. And horsemaster Dennet speculated that whatever's in the Bog Unicorn is a spirit of freedom or loyalty, though he probably wouldn't know if those actually exist.

 

Also, Imshael (in the book at least) doesn't seem to match up to any type of demon we've seen so far. He seems perfectly happy offering desires or flattering people's pride, and Lienne was shocked that he could come up with more than one way to kill people. Going by his dialogue, the only thing I can think of that he would be a spirit of is free will, which has some disturbing implications, so I'd rather stop thinking about him now.

 

As for Vengance, yes, I would say he's a demon, in the sense that vengence is a corrupted version of justice. But you could also say he's just a spirit of type justice, with the subtype vengance. So it's not really that simple, unless you want to simplify matters enough to say that Cole is a desire demon (after all, he does fulfill people's desire not to feel pain), or that a spirit of, for example, satisfaction, is a pride demon because it encourages you to celebrate your accomplishments.

 

Classification systems like the one we have for the Spirit/Demon Spectrum of Fade Thingies are really more for convenience of talking about the things than it is for describing the things themselves.

Imshael is one of the frobidden ones. Those who taught blood magic to mankind.



#37
raging_monkey

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Is it weird that I read this in Solas' voice?

not at allits merely a matter of perspective hehe

Spirits are spirits good and evil is a matter of perspective.
Demon is a name given to spirits who follow paths people of thedas do not like.

agreed

Wynne kept her faith though, while Mythal is possibly slumbering
 

Imshael is one of the frobidden ones. Those who taught blood magic to mankind.

thats one possiblity, couldve been the elves, the maker, or even the old gods
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#38
Kantr

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not at allits merely a matter of perspective hehe

agreed

thats one possiblity, couldve been the elves, the maker, or even the old gods

Well history says they did. Plus 2 of his brothers have been killed



#39
raging_monkey

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Well history says they did. Plus 2 of his brothers have been killed

never denied that just dont trust thedosian accounts of the fade or their origins for that matter

#40
Kantr

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never denied that just dont trust thedosian accounts of the fade or their origins for that matter

Accounts of the fade are correct. That its a shifting place with only one constant . The black city



#41
raging_monkey

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Accounts of the fade are correct. That its a shifting place with only one constant . The black city

again never denied that but solas makes a reasonable point of seeing what you want and perceptions, blah blah. I prefer to take it with salt nowadays