103 réponses à ce sujet

[Lvl20DM]

I don't know whey this hadn't occurred to me in the past, but what do you think was the actual mechanism of the creation of Darkspawn? If the Magisters entered the Golden City, were corrupted (somehow), and cast back to Thedas (perhaps in the Deep Roads) that syncs with what we learn from Corypheus. That gets us 7 Darkspawn - where did all the rest come from?

 

I'm thinking that the Magisters (or maybe just one Magister) created them to help him find the Old Gods. Another possibility is that the Magisters brought the Blight back with them and corrupted their followers (perhaps unknowingly). 

 

On a side note, the blight has been an antagonist in all 3 games; first through the Archdemon/Darkspawn, then through Red Lyrium and the corrupted Meredith, and now Corypheus.

[PorcelynDoll]

Cory says the City was already black when they got there and He and the other Magisters saw the corruption there and embraced it. There is also a codex entry about a dwarf whose father, or uncle (I forget which), saw two darkspawn dressed as Magisters conversing with each other in the deep roads. So it seems to me Cory's group purposely brought the blight back with them, maybe for it's "immortal" properties, being able to jump to other blighted bodies when they die, and spread it for that reason. That's just my theory though.

[atamajakki]

The primeval thaig predates Tevinter, which means the red lyrium within predates the magisters' ritual. That means the Blight is older than humans on Thedas by a long ways.

[Dezerte]

The primeval thaig predates Tevinter, which means the red lyrium within predates the magisters' ritual. That means the Blight is older than humans on Thedas by a long ways.

 

I was going to mention this.

 

This little fact from DA2 really puts the whole "The Magisters created the darkspawn"-idea seemingly to just be Chantry propaganda.

[Toasted Llama]

The primeval thaig predates Tevinter, which means the red lyrium within predates the magisters' ritual. That means the Blight is older than humans on Thedas by a long ways.

Last time I checked, red lyrium spreads extremely fast and could've simply grown there after the thaig was built.

Also, again, last time I checked, red lyrium was normal, blue lyrium before, but was simply corrupted by the blight, much like how humans and elves turn into ghouls. So it could've been simply blue lyrium inside the thaig before the blight started and then turned into red lyrium after the blight started.

[atamajakki]

Last time I checked, red lyrium spreads extremely fast and could've simply grown there after the thaig was built.
Also, again, last time I checked, red lyrium was normal, blue lyrium before, but was simply corrupted by the blight, much like how humans and elves turn into ghouls. So it could've been simply blue lyrium inside the thaig before the blight started and then turned into red lyrium after the blight started.

Darkspawn never touched it and red lyrium had never been seen outside of it before the Deep Roads Expedition; it's ground zero of the red lyrium infection, not infected at a later date.

[Dezerte]

Last time I checked, red lyrium spreads extremely fast and could've simply grown there after the thaig was built.

Also, again, last time I checked, red lyrium was normal, blue lyrium before, but was simply corrupted by the blight, much like how humans and elves turn into ghouls. So it could've been simply blue lyrium inside the thaig before the blight started and then turned into red lyrium after the blight started.

 

A valid point, though more unlikely given based on what we know.

[Ashagar]

Cory says the City was already black when they got there and He and the other Magisters saw the corruption there and embraced it. There is also a codex entry about a dwarf whose father, or uncle (I forget which), saw two darkspawn dressed as Magisters conversing with each other in the deep roads. So it seems to me Cory's group purposely brought the blight back with them, maybe for it's "immortal" properties, being able to jump to other blighted bodies when they die, and spread it for that reason. That's just my theory though.

 

Yah that codex does show that there were others like Cory roaming around underground and may still but their memory seemed to be damaged. As for Cory's claims about the city being already I seem to remember at one point he boasts how he walked the golden halls which how could he if the city was already black as he claimed earlier?

[Toasted Llama]

Darkspawn never touched it and red lyrium had never been seen outside of it before the Deep Roads Expedition; it's ground zero of the red lyrium infection, not infected at a later date.

I dont think darkspawn need to touch something in order for it to be corrupted, just the taint. Besides, how do you know darkspawn never touched it? Lyrium is found everywhere underground, as are darkspawn, doesn't seem impossible for darkspawn to touch lyrium.

And as for never being seen outisde of the thaig before the deep roads expedition, part of me thinks red lyrium is a retcon, but a plausible explanation could be that the red lyrium started very deep and had to grow large distances and the primeval thaig was the first place it reached.

[o Ventus]

The primeval thaig predates Tevinter, which means the red lyrium within predates the magisters' ritual. That means the Blight is older than humans on Thedas by a long ways.

Not necessarily. The thaig could have been there, uncorrupted, for however long before the Blight began to touch it and made the lyrium red. Simply because it was first found there doesn't mean it didn't exist in any other location before then.

[Joseph Warrick]

Old gods messing with things and getting it wrong. The taint is basically DA's indoctrination. First they tried it on lyrium and it kinda worked so they moved on to experiment with their tevinter worshippers. Sadly the first one didn't have time to avoid getting tainted itself. The rest went into hiding to protect themselves.

 

Nothing to do with magic or the maker at all (who never existed).

[Ashagar]

Well that's one opinion, mine is that the maker already had left at that point however something certainly did throw the corrupted magisters out of the black city and the fade. Also I don't think Corypheus view should be taken as complete truth as he's quite insane and prone to counterdicting himself.

[merik3000]

I'm guessing retcon as considering how many blights there has been Red Lyrium should've been much more common in Thedas than one isolated Thaig. In the first game the Darkspawn taint is meant to spread like a plague that even blights the ground they walk on but consdiering how many non-wardens you had in your party who were neck deep in Darkspawn blood the taint is only used for story reasons and not in actual effect otherwise by the end of Dragon age Origins the only survivors would be you and Alistair!

 

I don't think it is wise to retcon red lyrium to such a scale as it invalidates the previous two games. Also everyone in Emprise Du Lion should have gone mad by now due to the insane amount of red lyrium just lying around so I'm guessing red lyriums corosive effects on peoples mind have been significantly lowered

[Clockwork_Wings]

I'm guessing retcon as considering how many blights there has been Red Lyrium should've been much more common in Thedas than one isolated Thaig. In the first game the Darkspawn taint is meant to spread like a plague that even blights the ground they walk on but consdiering how many non-wardens you had in your party who were neck deep in Darkspawn blood the taint is only used for story reasons and not in actual effect otherwise by the end of Dragon age Origins the only survivors would be you and Alistair!

 

I don't think it is wise to retcon red lyrium to such a scale as it invalidates the previous two games. Also everyone in Emprise Du Lion should have gone mad by now due to the insane amount of red lyrium just lying around so I'm guessing red lyriums corosive effects on peoples mind have been significantly lowered

I read a theory someone put forth that dwarves are more susceptible to red lyrium.  Meredith had that sword for years...Bartrand and Varric did not.  Or so I was given to understand.

[TheLastArchivist]

Well, considering red lyrium is a plot device that was created way after the whole Blight+darkspawn+taint thing, it's a bit difficult to believe it was the red lyrium in the Primeval Thaig that actually created the taint in the first place (or so to speak).

 

Besides, there was no red lyrium in the Fade (or at least not before DA:I. After it became a plot device, Bioware now created areas of the Fade with it.). So the taint was indeed created when the first Breach was opened fourteen years ago, with a massive blood magic ritual.

The magisters had no way of accessing red lyrium - it was located in an unkown underground location -, so unless by going into the Fade and finding the Black City, there was no other way they could've been infected by the taint (and later spread it around Thedas).

 

People have already discussed the red lyrium was a poor plot device used in DA2 to justify Meredith's insanity. Trith be told, that should never have been the ending of the game at all. The red lyrium was used to justify Bartrand's betrayal. Okay, that makes sense. But the rest? No. It's just too far-fetched.

 

 

I just hope any of this crazyness will one day make sense. I'm having migraines just trying to wrap my head around such an obscure topic. 

[Fragoos]

The blight always kills it's victims, grey wardens included. If lyrium really is alive it might be the first living thing that does not die from the taint. As dangerous as it is, it may also be the key for a antidote. Those demons Hawke found in the thaig where also corrupted by red lyrium, pretty potent stuff.

 

I think there was a ancient dagna in that thaig that discovered lyrium lived and the experiments went (ofcourse) very wrong. Most thaigs got seperated because of the blights and desperate times need desperate thinking. 

[Knight of Dane]

The Hero of Ferelden possibly traveling to the West of mapped Thedas suggests that the blight might have an origin in the world, but outside known lands.

[cardinalally]

How I see it is the Taint itself is older than the Darkspawn.  But the Taint of Red Lyrium is different than the Darkspawn taint.  They infect and effect people differently.  

Consuming Red Lyrium will cause the lyrium to grow within you, but it doesn't turn you into a mindless slave.  

Darkspawn taint will turn you into a mindless slave or change you into a broodmother (female).

 

So my theory is the taint is older than the darkspawn.  Therefore the red lyrium taint has different properties and will do different things.  When the magisters entered the Fade they brought the taint back into Thedas, but it was changed.  Evolved???

 

Think of it like the real world flu.  Bird flu and swine flu are both the flu, but they both behave in different ways and are transmitted in different ways.  Still the flu, but different because they come from different sources.

 

But this of course just begs the question, where did the taint come from and why is it here?  

[DarkSpiral]

How I see it is the Taint itself is older than the Darkspawn.  But the Taint of Red Lyrium is different than the Darkspawn taint.  They infect and effect people differently.  

Consuming Red Lyrium will cause the lyrium to grow within you, but it doesn't turn you into a mindless slave.  

Darkspawn taint will turn you into a mindless slave or change you into a broodmother (female).

 

So my theory is the taint is older than the darkspawn.  Therefore the red lyrium taint has different properties and will do different things.  When the magisters entered the Fade they brought the taint back into Thedas, but it was changed.  Evolved???

 

Think of it like the real world flu.  Bird flu and swine flu are both the flu, but they both behave in different ways and are transmitted in different ways.  Still the flu, but different because they come from different sources.

 

But this of course just begs the question, where did the taint come from and why is it here?  

 

This is the same basic theory I took away from DAI as well.

 

In regard to your final question, I recall a banter between Cole and Solas.  Like many of the banters between the two of them, it begins and ends very abruptly.

 

Cole: *gasp* A war in the Fade, waged with human hatred.

Solas: It would be a terrible thing.

Cole: They shouldn't have put it in the girl.  It hurt her!

 

Now, it could have absolutely nothing to do with the taint of the blight and the Darkspawn.  But hte idea got me ot thinking.  If the theory of the taint predating the Darkspawn holds any water, as suggested by the possibility that Red Lyrium might have existed long before the First Blight began, then it could be older than the Imperium.

 

The empire of Elvhenan is older than the Imperium, and information from DAI paints a grim picture of what that empire might have been like.  The kind of place where a "god" might create a weapon so incredibly dangerous, even to the creator, that it gets buried in the deepest darkest hole he or she can find.  Or jettisoned into the spirit world.

 

Just food for thought.  Guesswork.

[Heimdall]

My theory is that the taint is actually a curse from or maybe the actual essence of Elgar'nan, God of Vengeance, now existing as a sort of singleminded diffuse hatred towards the world and everything for his imprisonment in the Golden City. That might explain why broken eluvians fill with the taint (Duncan doesn't say dark spawn infect them, he says "Over time, some of them simply break, they fill with the same taint as the darkspawn"). It might be that his influence was able to seep into ancient veins of lyrium in the Primeval Thaig in a similar fashion, or they might have had broken elven relics, or maybe that idol was actually dedicated to Elgar'nan.

The Magisters just unleashed the undiluted full force of it to create the darkspawn.

[Clockwork_Wings]

Well, considering red lyrium is a plot device that was created way after the whole Blight+darkspawn+taint thing, it's a bit difficult to believe it was the red lyrium in the Primeval Thaig that actually created the taint in the first place (or so to speak).

 

Besides, there was no red lyrium in the Fade (or at least not before DA:I. After it became a plot device, Bioware now created areas of the Fade with it.). So the taint was indeed created when the first Breach was opened fourteen years ago, with a massive blood magic ritual.

The magisters had no way of accessing red lyrium - it was located in an unkown underground location -, so unless by going into the Fade and finding the Black City, there was no other way they could've been infected by the taint (and later spread it around Thedas).

 

People have already discussed the red lyrium was a poor plot device used in DA2 to justify Meredith's insanity. Trith be told, that should never have been the ending of the game at all. The red lyrium was used to justify Bartrand's betrayal. Okay, that makes sense. But the rest? No. It's just too far-fetched.

 

 

I just hope any of this crazyness will one day make sense. I'm having migraines just trying to wrap my head around such an obscure topic. 

My impression was that whatever Corypheus was doing was making it spread. 

 

But what was the green stuff in a few places that lights up when the inquisitor goes near it?  There's some in the Temple of Sacred Ashes and some in the Hissing Wastes, I think.  Someone had a thread mentioning green lyrium...

 

As for regular lyrium, I'm thinking some sort of extremophile fungus or communal creature. If Dagna were to continue studying, she may find that lyrium grows, just not as quickly as red lyrium.

[DuskWanderer]

I actually got the impression that Corypheus never intended to catch the Blight. He went to the city on the advice of Dumat. Maybe the city looked golden from the outside, but it was corrupted the moment Corypheus and the magisters set foot in there. The corruption then spread to the outside, like the magisters punctured the lid. That corruption went into the magisters, and they became Darkspawn. When they came back, they brought Blight to the world. 

 

It's quite possible it was something the old elven gods put in there. Maybe it was a weapon they used against each other. 

[azarhal]

Well that's one opinion, mine is that the maker already had left at that point however something certainly did throw the corrupted magisters out of the black city and the fade. Also I don't think Corypheus view should be taken as complete truth as he's quite insane and prone to counterdicting himself.

 

Andraste's said (well the Chant of Light/Chantry claims she said) that the Maker left when people started to worship the Old Gods, that's a a few thousands of years before the Magisters entered the Golden City. That's also why you never see anyone but Corypheus being surprised that the Golden City was empty. Only Corypheus believed there was supposed to be something there.

[Vortex13]

Personally, I think that the Taint has always existed on Thedas just very far underground, possibly as a highly adaptable virus.

 

Things ranging from the Tevinter Magisters' attempts to breach the Golden City causing the old gods' prisons to become susceptible to infection via the Taint, to the Dwarves digging to greedily and too deep, caused the first true Darkspawn to appear. I think that the closest thing to a 'true' Darkspawn are probably the Children of the Mother, as it seems that all newly born Darkspawn are grubs before they begin to assimilate the features of the Tainted species the Broodmother originated from.  

 

As far as the Red Lyrium goes, I personally feel that Corephyus and Co.'s breaching of the Golden/Black city caused the infection of regular Lyrium, which I propose is a physical manifestation of the Fade itself. This corruption of Red Lyrium then spread from the deepest recesses of the planet to reach the Primevil Taig in DA 2. 

[Heimdall]

Things ranging from the Tevinter Magisters' attempts to breach the Golden City causing the old gods' prisons to become susceptible to infection via the Taint, to the Dwarves digging to greedily and too deep, caused the first true Darkspawn to appear. I think that the closest thing to a 'true' Darkspawn are probably the Children of the Mother, as it seems that all newly born Darkspawn are grubs before they begin to assimilate the features of the Tainted species the Broodmother originated from.

I had always assumed those were mutations caused by the Architect's joining ritual, not normal newborn darkspawn (Especially given the odd insectlike limbs on the Mother herself)