103 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

I dont think darkspawn need to touch something in order for it to be corrupted, just the taint. Besides, how do you know darkspawn never touched it? Lyrium is found everywhere underground, as are darkspawn, doesn't seem impossible for darkspawn to touch lyrium.

And as for never being seen outisde of the thaig before the deep roads expedition, part of me thinks red lyrium is a retcon, but a plausible explanation could be that the red lyrium started very deep and had to grow large distances and the primeval thaig was the first place it reached.

Yes, lyrium is found everywhere in the Deep Roads. And yet, no mining caste has ever seen or heard of red lyrium before. Which means that lyrium CANNOT be infected with the blight through contact with the darkspawn. Period. There'd be barely any blue lyrium if it could.

So no, the red lyrium from the Primeval Thaig was not infected by darkspawn. The Blight predates the Magisters' trespass. That's really all there is to it.

[Vortex13]

I had always assumed those were mutations caused by the Architect's joining ritual, not normal newborn darkspawn (Especially given the odd insectlike limbs on the Mother herself)

 

 

Very true.

 

 

But maybe the insect nature of the Mother and her Children is the original characteristics of the Taint/Darkspawn reasserting themselves because of the Architect's experiments. Maybe the Awakened is less about creating a new breed of Darkspawn free of the Archdemon's Song and more of an attempt to fix the the Taint's encounter with the old gods? Supposing that Taint/Darkspawn was present on Thedas since the beginning, perhaps it was a case of the old gods' will being imposed onto the Taint itself when they were first corrupted? The first contact with Dumant could have 'corrupted' the Taint, enslaving it to the whims of the old gods, and that the Song, or Calling is a result of Dumant's manipulation of it. 

 

 

In all honesty, it can go any way the writers want to at this point. I personally hope that it isn't some grande scheme of the old gods, or the elven gods, or the maker, or the Dread Wolf though. It would be nice for something to exist outside of their control, something totally alien to the gods and mortals of Thedas.

[Heimdall]

Yes, lyrium is found everywhere in the Deep Roads. And yet, no mining caste has ever seen or heard of red lyrium before. Which means that lyrium CANNOT be infected with the blight through contact with the darkspawn. Period. There'd be barely any blue lyrium if it could.So no, the red lyrium from the Primeval Thaig was not infected by darkspawn. The Blight predates the Magisters' trespass. That's really all there is to it.

I agree, with the caveat that I think the Darkspawn themselves originate with their trespass.

There's a bit from a quest that contained some reflections from Corypheus. He mocks the idea that they created "the darkness" and says they merely discovered it and took it into themselves.

[Heimdall]

In all honesty, it can go any way the writers want to at this point. I personally hope that it isn't some grande scheme of the old gods, or the elven gods, or the maker, or the Dread Wolf though. It would be nice for something to exist outside of their control, something totally alien to the gods and mortals of Thedas.

That's sort of what I was hoping when they first introduced Red Lyrium, that it was something new and alien.

Now I find out it's just lyrium infected with the Blight.

So I think Bioware is pretty dedicated to making everything interconnected. Hence my theory on the previous page that the Blight is essentially a biological and magical manifestation of a twisted, hateful, tormented, incoherent god. The darkspawn simply being the result of being unleashed on the unwary.

[Vortex13]

That's sort of what I was hoping when they first introduced Red Lyrium, that it was something new and alien.

Now I find out it's just lyrium infected with the Blight.

So I think Bioware is pretty dedicated to making everything interconnected. Hence my theory on the previous page that the Blight is essentially a biological and magical manifestation of a twisted, hateful, tormented, incoherent god. The darkspawn simply being the result of being unleashed on the unwary.

 

 

Well if that's the case I can just see BSN's response to that particular revelation: "Elves caused the Darkspawn!" "Elves are the ultimate evil of all Dragon Age!" 

[Taleroth]

So no, the red lyrium from the Primeval Thaig was not infected by darkspawn. The Blight predates the Magisters' trespass. That's really all there is to it.

Not all there is to it. Yes, it was clearly not infected by standard Darkspawn. But it could have been caused by a Magister after the trespass.

 

Corypheus caused red lyrium to appear at the temple. Whether it was himself or simply what he was doing, it shows it can be created afterwards.

[Rifneno]

I agree, with the caveat that I think the Darkspawn themselves originate with their trespass.

There's a bit from a quest that contained some reflections from Corypheus. He mocks the idea that they created "the darkness" and says they merely discovered it and took it into themselves.

I'm not so sure. Remember that the dwarves believe the darkspawn first came from the Deep Roads and that they predate the magisters' sins.

Not all there is to it. Yes, it was clearly not infected by standard Darkspawn. But it could have been caused by a Magister after the trespass.
 
Corypheus caused red lyrium to appear at the temple. Whether it was himself or simply what he was doing, it shows it can be created afterwards.

There's one very big problem with that idea: the red lyrium is isolated to that one thaig. It isn't like it's in the plains or a forest. It's miles underground. There's only one exit. If the magister(s) infected the lyrium in that thaig, they'd have infected more of it on their way to and from it.

It's also possible that Corypheus had some red lyrium with him when he went to the conclave. Perhaps he was even using it as a power source.

[MrMrPendragon]

Still don't get what is the determining factor of someone dying from the Joining vs surviving the Joining.

Where does the resistance come from? They haven't said outright what is needed to survive the Joining.

 

What we know so far:

 

1. Lyrium is alive. Otherwise it wouldn't have been tainted.

 

2. Red Lyrium pre-dates the first blight, meaning it pre-dates the whole Black City incident. The taint doesn't come from darkspawn or from the magisters. They just simply discovered it. In the primeval thaig, dwarves worshiped some kind of god and made statues of it/him/her. Perhaps the taint is that god's magic.

 

3. The taint somehow sings and leads people to the Old Gods. Just like how lyrium sings to spirits, and to dwarves.

 

 

My personal theory is that the taint is some powerful magic used by the ancient dwarves, to do god knows what. Maybe to fight dragons? Since long ago apparently the dragons ruled everything, but suddenly they all vanished and we have Old Gods imprisoned.... underground.

 

Oh and lyrium are just basically radioactive rocks from some explosion caused by some ancient war long ago. Like little pieces of the raw power of the Fade sealed in rocks. Before there was no Veil right? Well when the Veil was created, it I guess caused some global catastrophe which resulted to: dwarves having no magic, demons and people are separated, and little remnants of the Fade that are left are sealed in rocks. LOL

[Taleroth]

There's one very big problem with that idea: the red lyrium is isolated to that one thaig. It isn't like it's in the plains or a forest. It's miles underground. There's only one exit. If the magister(s) infected the lyrium in that thaig, they'd have infected more of it on their way to and from it.

And the big problem with your idea is that it's still assuming casual contact.

 

If it's the result of a ritual, spell, a power, convergence, mass gathering, just about anything other than walking past, this could easily explain its limited spread.

 

Here's a big hole in the "it's old" argument. It's living, it grows, and it spreads. It didn't spread very far.

[ZawiszaTheBlack]

I just finished the game and I remember that Corypheus said he was walking through Golden City's halls. He said GOLDEN.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Remember that Thaig looked a bit like part dwarven, part Tevinter but, could it not have been the ancient elves? What if the elves tried to undo the quickening and, created the blight instead? Sure it's a form of immortality if the blighted being remains sentient. Is it elven magic (who were the one race entirely casual about magic) gone wrong?

 

What if Arlathan was the Golden City and, it was corrupted and fell before the magisters? Yes civil war but, why? It is plausible that elves at least played a part in the corruption. Perhaps they breached the Golden city before the magisters and, we just don't know it yet.

 

Crystal spires floating in the trees, Skyhold, reached for the sky to bring it down? Makes you wonder - might be a metaphor for reaching for Heaven, the Golden city. Magic protects Skyhold from darkness, was that a result of the elves needing to protect themselves?

[ZawiszaTheBlack]

At the end Corypheus started begging for help from Dumat and the rest of the Old Gods, asking them for support if they ever existed. Another thing is that the Inquisitor is the only person after Magisters who entered the Fade physically, but nothing bad happend for him. What does it mean? Somoene or something punished the Magisters and only them, while Inquisitor was safe. The City was corrupted once, by Magisters and what has been done can not be undone - can not be repeated. The whole world was punished once and there is no need to repeat it.

We must ask ourselves why humanity was believing that Maker's City is golden. Even Corypheus was expecting to enter the golden city, not the black one. I think that his expectations were collapsed, because the City changed to black right after "the visit" and spread the corruption all over them. Corypheus was disappointed - that's why he said "It was supposed to be gold, it was supposed to be ours.". The second part of his words says that someone banished or something them. It's the main reason why he was trying to conquer the Golden City again.

 

I don't think that Arlathan was the Golden City. I do believe that the Golden City is THIS City deep in the Fade. Atleast someone imprisoned the Old Gods and force them to sleep. They are not a normal dragons, not for Mythal.

[Kantr]

Well, considering red lyrium is a plot device that was created way after the whole Blight+darkspawn+taint thing, it's a bit difficult to believe it was the red lyrium in the Primeval Thaig that actually created the taint in the first place (or so to speak).

 

Besides, there was no red lyrium in the Fade (or at least not before DA:I. After it became a plot device, Bioware now created areas of the Fade with it.). So the taint was indeed created when the first Breach was opened fourteen years ago, with a massive blood magic ritual.

The magisters had no way of accessing red lyrium - it was located in an unkown underground location -, so unless by going into the Fade and finding the Black City, there was no other way they could've been infected by the taint (and later spread it around Thedas).

 

People have already discussed the red lyrium was a poor plot device used in DA2 to justify Meredith's insanity. Trith be told, that should never have been the ending of the game at all. The red lyrium was used to justify Bartrand's betrayal. Okay, that makes sense. But the rest? No. It's just too far-fetched.

 

 

I just hope any of this crazyness will one day make sense. I'm having migraines just trying to wrap my head around such an obscure topic. 

All the other times being in the fade you are in a dream section. This time we're in the raw fade with the nightmare.

 

Besides red lyrium was rare until cory was told of it

[Vortex13]

I tend to view the Taint as a sentient being (of sorts), its not just an infection or simple virus; well I mean it does infect people but its more of a symbiotic organism than a disease. Sure you have infected Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Qunari in the form of Ghouls, but Darkspawn born from a Broodmother aren't infected members of those races; Hurlocks, Genlocks, Shrieks, and Ogres are Darkspawn, a completely separate species. The Taint is deadly to most everything in Thedas its true, but its not a true parasite. A parasite lives off its host without providing any benefits, but the Darkspawn are functionally immortal, and they don't need to eat, or sleep; those are some pretty substantial benefits for a supposed killer plague to provide to its hosts. I think there is a level of nuance to the relationship beyond a simple disease.

 

 

The Taint/Darkspawn (IMO) are too complex to be a simple mistake or accidental byproduct of some spell gone awry or the result of some angered god. Sure there are clear examples of the Taint behaving akin to radiation poisoning or a virulent infection, but their are other instances where the Taint is shown to provide clear advantages to those it has infected. Not only that but the Darkspawn and the Taint are too interconnected to be written off as mere hosts of a disease; the Darkspawn Hive Mind, the Calling/Song of the old gods, etc. One can almost use the two terms interchangeably due to how dependent they are on each other. 

 

 

I think that the Taint has always existed in the setting and it and the Darkspawn are a fifth intelligence species (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Qunari being the other four) living on Thedas. 

 

 

 

EDIT: Another thing to consider is how the Taint not the Fade is the source of the Darkspawns' magic, and how the Darspawn have no souls (i.e. presence within the fade, and not just muted like the Dwarves). That (to me) is far too complex to be some hiccup of a spell, I mean the Taint is the only thing that can draw on something other than the Fade to create magic. 

[electrifried]

Remember that Thaig looked a bit like part dwarven, part Tevinter but, could it not have been the ancient elves? What if the elves tried to undo the quickening and, created the blight instead? Sure it's a form of immortality if the blighted being remains sentient. Is it elven magic (who were the one race entirely casual about magic) gone wrong?

 

What if Arlathan was the Golden City and, it was corrupted and fell before the magisters? Yes civil war but, why? It is plausible that elves at least played a part in the corruption. Perhaps they breached the Golden city before the magisters and, we just don't know it yet.

This makes sense to me, Abelas even says it was due to in-fighting that caused the fall in the first place. 

[Icinix]

Going far out ideas;

 

Dwarves did it.

 

They did everything. They ruin everything, pesky little dwarves.

Dwarves wielded magic, entered the golden city, were corrupted and punished and created darkspawn.

 

It wasn't until some other fools tried to enter the golden city that the blights started, possibly because of the magisters obsession with old gods.

[Taleroth]

Going far out ideas;

 

Dwarves did it.

 

They did everything. They ruin everything, pesky little dwarves.

Dwarves wielded magic, entered the golden city, were corrupted and punished and created darkspawn.

 

It wasn't until some other fools tried to enter the golden city that the blights started, possibly because of the magisters obsession with old gods.

I'm pretty sure this is Elthina's fault.

[lyleoffmyspace]

Maybe when the Magisters re-entered Thedas from the Fade they arrived at the Primeval Thaig - ground zero for the infection perhaps. 

[EdwinLi]

Well looking back in DA2 the dwarf ruin where they found the Red Lyrium was completely covered in Red Lyrium.

 

The Demons there were feeding off the Red Lyrium to survive.

 

It possible the ancient Dwarf of that place sealed themselves away with the Red Lyrium to prevent it from spreading.

[SG-17]

I believe that the Blight started either in Arlathan or was created by the Primeval Dwarves (and spread to Arlathan) and then spread to the Black City after the Magisters arrived and opened an Eluvian to Arlathan.

http://forum.bioware...the-black-city/

[Shadpants]

 

This is one of the codex entries that are translated after you drink from the well...Could the weapon created by Andruil be the taint? 

[Rifneno]

And the big problem with your idea is that it's still assuming casual contact.
 
If it's the result of a ritual, spell, a power, convergence, mass gathering, just about anything other than walking past, this could easily explain its limited spread.
 
Here's a big hole in the "it's old" argument. It's living, it grows, and it spreads. It didn't spread very far.

I saw a guy claiming to be 90 the other day. Lying freak. No way he's older than 18. I've seen 15 year olds that big.

[o Ventus]

There's one very big problem with that idea: the red lyrium is isolated to that one thaig. It isn't like it's in the plains or a forest. It's miles underground. There's only one exit. If the magister(s) infected the lyrium in that thaig, they'd have infected more of it on their way to and from it.

It's also possible that Corypheus had some red lyrium with him when he went to the conclave. Perhaps he was even using it as a power source.

Not necessarily. Lyrium is found everywhere underground, and the dwarven thaigs don't span the entirety of the planet's crust. As far as the primeval thaig goes, it could be as simple as some darkspawn showing up and infecting normal lyrium that would have been there. There's nothing at all to prove or even imply that the primeval thaig is the only place IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE PLANET'S CRUST to have red lyrium. If it was a magister, why would their mere presence infect nearby lyrium? That would be like catching the flu from somebody just by virtue of being in the same building as them, even if you're several rooms away and they've never been near you. The red templars in Emprise du Lion were mining red lyrium. I doubt that they would have asked Corypheus to come to an open mine shaft, walk in, and then just leave so they can get to mining.

[Rifneno]

As far as the primeval thaig goes, it could be as simple as some darkspawn showing up and infecting normal lyrium that would have been there.

Mother of God, how many times must we go over this? The presence of darkspawn cannot infect blue lyrium and turn it red. Seriously, I think I'm just going to make a hotkey.

[Steelcan]

I think the Blight being an elven weapon is certainly possible, if it was unleashed, accidentally perhaps, on the elves in Uthenera, that became the Black City, the Magisters then took it into themselves when trespassing there as per Corypheus's dialogue.

 

The real question is how it got there, and into the Primeval thaig.  Since Arlathan wasn't destroyed by Tevinter, its unlikely they sunk it..... Unless it was to contain to the Red Lyrium and Blight within it which then spread throughout the Deep Roads.......