404 réponses à ce sujet

[joejoe099]

You can not agree with Sarkeesan all you want. But Propaganda has an agenda to further power. Sarkeesan is not trying to get anybody elected to any office. It's criticism plain and simple. Nothing wrong with that. Even Joss Whedon agreed that Sarkeesan had a point or two. And he's bonfide geek royalty. Man made Avengers.

And 'sorry attempt at inductive reasoning' implies that women are not capable of such. Would you say the same of Angry Joe?

Feminism is a legitimate lense through with to view culture. It's not the only one. But to say nothing can be problematic from a feminist POV is to not understand the point of Feminism.

Look. I know my Audience here. Trying to argue Feminist Theory with you would would be like debating the finer points of the Pauline Epistles with an Atheist.

But I figured I may as well throw in my two cents.

 

Shimmer....I hope you're better than this. Really, I do.

 

First off, her videos are propaganda themselves. She looks at them from only an outsider's perspective, which she is as she has admitted to not even liking games or their culture. Second, of course they can say that, she says opinions on things and treats them on facts. She focuses on only the appearance, but not the actual impact. In fact, she's counter productive for what she says she's for considering that since gaming has taken off as a media sexism has declined greatly against women since its started, and remained unchanged like this.

 

she's not inductive reasoning either, she's just the face of a speech written by a man. You should really look into what people actually do in their jobs.

 

Feminism is not a legit way to look at culture considering it's a political stance, one that's outdated from its original intent during its creation and has now being only used to push selfish desires.

 

The link I provided  above is perfect evidence of your statement of "debating the finer points of the Pauline Epistles with an Atheist." since that's exactly what she does. You're welcome to say these things, but at least have a creditable source.

 

Thank you for throwing in your two cents, I only hope that you get your money's worth of realistic world view.

[CreepingShadow]

Well......... this thread seems to have devolved entirely into a debate about the role of PCness in fiction so I'll put my two cents in.

 

You're always going to offend somebody no matter what you say or do, there's nothing wrong with being self concious and empathetic, but when that mantra bleeds over into art we get a bland, grey, overly sanitized final product.

 

Also, I think people are getting the wrong idea there is nothing wrong with feminism the ideology, what we're dealing with is the victim complex of 21st century Western Society. That crosses political boundries, the same vitriol you find on Tumblr can be found on any right-wing blog, just from a different viewpoint. People have a tendency these to think these days, that their opinion, once formed, is the unalterable truth, and anyone who disagrees is ''attacking" them. Civility is dead.

 

And................ I'm starting to rant. Okay better shut up now before I get the thread locked.

[Ekliane]

Shimmer_Gloom, on 12 Dec 2014 - 11:20 PM, said

There's absolutely nothing misogynistic (?) about people using their body for honest work.

 

 

 

Yeaaah Well I don't think most prostitutes had much choices back then. As in, dying in the streets or making money with their bodies. Not that some people were not doing this job AND being proud AND A-OK with their situations. But Thief, The Witcher, Hitman and pretty much every brothel ever in games didn't seem to be intent on portraying interesting stuff from the workers, their lives and motivations. Well, actually, they only seemed to offer me stuff inside the workers.

 

Now, I don't think BioWare need to have a brothel to be so dark/so edgy/look at dat mature setting bro. They present some pretty adult themes (Dorian's homosexuality resulting in him fleeing from home for exemple) without the need to be graphic and/or raunchy. So, yeah, I don't miss brothels, even if they are such an important *coughs* landmark of fantasy.

[joejoe099]

Yeah, getting back on topic, taking a brothel out is a sad move.

 

bars and brothels and other establishments of their like provide a lot of possible story or lore elements that can't be dismissed. Even interesting circumstances, what with the 'surprise me' option in DAO where you end up in your underwear with either a strange looking sword on the bed, or a nug in the room with a funny comment said.

[joejoe099]

Yeaaah Well I don't think most prostitutes had much choices back then. As in, dying in the streets or making money with their bodies. Not that some people were not doing this job AND being proud AND A-OK with their situations. But Thief, The Witcher, Hitman and pretty much every brothel ever in games didn't seem to be intent on portraying interesting stuff from the workers, their lives and motivations. Well, actually, they only seemed to offer me stuff inside the workers.

 

Now, I don't think BioWare need to have a brothel to be so dark/so edgy/look at dat mature setting bro. They present some pretty adult themes (Dorian's homosexuality resulting in him fleeing from home for exemple) without the need to be graphic and/or raunchy. So, yeah, I don't miss brothels, even if they are such an important *coughs* landmark of fantasy.

 

Dorian's side quest isn't an example of something being mature, it's an over used story arc made cliche in the modern world of 'daddy don't like me cause I like dudes'. if anything, it might be an example of poor writing. one of the few times we get cinematic mod with people talking in the game, and we get this? We also have Ironbull shouting about jacking off later while thinking about a dragon, or talking about how swords look like members every other sentence, and don't get me started on Sera, so I think bioware has already established how goddamn raunchy they'll gladly get.

 

Also, dismissing witcher 1's story line of actually investigating a brothel under the assumption they're vampires to find out they actually are is providing a reason to their existence. Let's not forget witcher 2's brothel owner purposely helping elves escape from human torture, hanging herself of fear once those people are captured. Or how hitman is almost assassinated by one such girl posing as some one who'd work at such establishments.

[celestialfury]

Brothels were lame. Glad they're gone. 

[Rannik]

Yeaaah Well I don't think most prostitutes had much choices back then. As in, dying in the streets or making money with their bodies. Not that some people were not doing this job AND being proud AND A-OK with their situations.

I still don't see how that's misoginistic in any way:

1 - There are male prostitutes.
2 - Almost no one has an easy life in Thedas, in fact those prostitutes are probably better off than most.
 

But Thief, The Witcher, Hitman and pretty much every brothel ever in games didn't seem to be intent on portraying interesting stuff from the workers, their lives and motivations. Well, actually, they only seemed to offer me stuff inside the workers.

That's what a brothel is for, is not a library or a cafe, it's a place where you go to have sex, period.

Is it that hard of a concept to grasp?
 

Now, I don't think BioWare need to have a brothel to be so dark/so edgy/look at dat mature setting bro.

What does a brothel have to do with "dark/edgy look"? Did we play the same game?

You fight freaking demons that come of a thing that could swallow the whole world while killing thousands of people in the meanwhile, if you think a place where someone go to have fun is "darker" than that you should reassess that ridiculous taboo because it is... well, ridiculous.
 

They present some pretty adult themes (Dorian's homosexuality resulting in him fleeing from home for exemple) without the need to be graphic and/or raunchy.

So brothels are bad because they're "tropeish" but the thousandth someone tried to opress me gay dude story (which represents 99% of the gay themed films) is some kind of hallmark of adult writing? LMFAO

 

I gotta said that the blood magic twist was cool though, it made me laugh. 
 

[celestialfury]

Shimmer....I hope you're better than this. Really, I do.

 

First off, her videos are propaganda themselves. She looks at them from only an outsider's perspective, which she is as she has admitted to not even liking games or their culture. Second, of course they can say that, she says opinions on things and treats them on facts. She focuses on only the appearance, but not the actual impact. In fact, she's counter productive for what she says she's for considering that since gaming has taken off as a media sexism has declined greatly against women since its started, and remained unchanged like this.

 

she's not inductive reasoning either, she's just the face of a speech written by a man. You should really look into what people actually do in their jobs.

 

Feminism is not a legit way to look at culture considering it's a political stance, one that's outdated from its original intent during its creation and has now being only used to push selfish desires.

 

The link I provided  above is perfect evidence of your statement of "debating the finer points of the Pauline Epistles with an Atheist." since that's exactly what she does. You're welcome to say these things, but at least have a creditable source.

 

Thank you for throwing in your two cents, I only hope that you get your money's worth of realistic world view.

 

 

+ this sums you up. 

[CreepingShadow]

Yeaaah Well I don't think most prostitutes had much choices back then. As in, dying in the streets or making money with their bodies. Not that some people were not doing this job AND being proud AND A-OK with their situations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------snip--------------------------------------------------------------------

This describes basically every lower-class person back in the old days, a lot of people today even, and not just prostitutes. Why is sex work any different from say farming, cleaning, fishing, cooking, sewing, etc.. It's all thankless work, and all of it requires the use of the body, just in different ways.

[celestialfury]

This describes basically every lower-class person back in the old days, a lot of people today even, and not just prostitutes. Why is sex work any different from say farming, cleaning, fishing, cooking, sewing, etc.. It's all thankless work, and all of it requires the use of the body, just in different ways.

 

Does farming have a 90% physical abuse rate, a 78% rape rate, a 86% homelessness rate in the past year and do 95% of farmers want to quit their jobs?  Does farming overrepresent some of the most  marginalized, racially oppressed minority women? 

[Rannik]

Does farming have a 90% physical abuse rate, a 78% rape rate, a 86% homelessness rate in the past year and do 95% of farmers want to quit their jobs?  Does farming overrepresent some of the most  marginalized, racially oppressed minority women? 

 

Are those statistics from Thedas or... ?

 

Let's go back to the basics:

 

Videogames are not real, they're fiction.

[CreepingShadow]

Does farming have a 90% physical abuse rate, a 78% rape rate, a 86% homelessness rate in the past year and do 95% of farmers want to quit their jobs?  Does farming overrepresent some of the most  marginalized, racially oppressed minority women? 

I'm talking Medieval Times it was all tough. Also in regards to prostitution that doesn't refer to legalized regulated sex work. I.E the Brothels in Nevada. Of course the conditions for poor streetwalkers are going to be horrific, these are girls society abandoned long before they took to the streets. Oh and yes I know it's techinically legal in Canada, but the state is more that of de-criminalization than full legality.

[Ryzaki]

Even though in DA it's always had an equal number of female and male workers?

 

Yeah I could get the arguement for ME but DA pretty much had males and females.

 

Also the male dwarf man. "They always want the dwarf."

[TheLastArchivist]

From brothels to Sarkeesian.

Amazing.

[joejoe099]

 

+ this sums you up. 

 

original goal

 

man writing half of sarkisan's spite

 

selfish desires pushed

[EmissaryofLies]

Honestly did not notice until you brought it up. Thanks for that.

 

It's just one more fun thing taken away while they bombard me with their Pro-Andrastian agenda.

[celestialfury]

original goal

 

man writing half of sarkisan's spite

 

selfish desires pushed

 

Ha. So you were really made of nothing but hot air, good to know. 

[celestialfury]

I'm talking Medieval Times it was all tough. Also in regards to prostitution that doesn't refer to legalized regulated sex work. I.E the Brothels in Nevada. Of course the conditions for poor streetwalkers are going to be horrific, these are girls society abandoned long before they took to the streets. Oh and yes I know it's techinically legal in Canada, but the state is more that of de-criminalization than full legality.

 

It is also tough, exploitative, even nowadays, even when it's legalized. Especially when it's legalized, because it increases human trafficking.   No matter how much it upsets people who love the idea of prostitution, the reality is that the women(and men) in it suffer rates of homelessness, poverty,rape,violence and post traumatic disorder that make claiming it's ''a job like any other'' insanity. 

[robertthebard]

Does farming have a 90% physical abuse rate, a 78% rape rate, a 86% homelessness rate in the past year and do 95% of farmers want to quit their jobs?  Does farming overrepresent some of the most  marginalized, racially oppressed minority women?

Stopped reading the link after the first line: "We interviewed 100 women". That's supposed to be some kind of authentic research? Did they go out and deliberately get 100 crackheads for their "research"? Did they interview girls working in Las Vegas, or Reno? The whole thing is more self serving dribble than actual research. Post up something where they interviewed 1,000 women, from varying backgrounds, and, here's the part that's going to chaff you badly, 1,000 men that also work in the industry. Until then, you're not presenting anything even remotely resembling research. With such a small sample size, it would be really easy to "stack the deck", and considering it's purpose, that's likely what they did.

[Rannik]

It is also tough, exploitative, even nowadays, even when it's legalized. Especially when it's legalized, because it increases human trafficking.   No matter how much it upsets people who love the idea of prostitution, the reality is that the women(and men) in it suffer rates of homelessness, poverty,rape,violence and post traumatic disorder that make claiming it's ''a job like any other'' insanity. 

 

Making it legal doesn't magically make it the well regulated market it could be, which works perfectly fine for massagists and other such services.

 

Those problems come from the state, politics created them, not the profession itself (just like that retarded "war on drugs").

[TheJediSaint]

Cassandra's reaction to the suggestion that a Brothel being installed in Skyhold.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Oh for feks sake can we talk about games?

[New Kid]

They capitalise on you being the herald of a religious figure, a brothel would burn bridges and turn away the funding of nobility. (Although it could attract some Orlesian nobility haha)

[theluc76]

the no brothel thing is just to be politically correct and please the feminists.

[robertthebard]

They capitalise on you being the herald of a religious figure, a brothel would burn bridges and turn away the funding of nobility. (Although it could attract some Orlesian nobility haha)

Ironically, if we had a brothel at Skyhold, we could probably gain a lot more support faster.