848 réponses à ce sujet

[day83]

I would rather see the franchise move forward rather than copy dated mechanics.. Even with its flaws I prefer DA:I to Origins. 

[Paul E Dangerously]

I think they should keep on making the same game, over and over and over and over again, why change it?

Easier for them and easier for us.

This is why I never change my underwear, it worked for me on sunday and even though it's a bit stale, it still works for me on saturday. I think a philosophy of not ever developing anything or moving on should definitely be adopted.

 

If there's one thing that games forums have taught me - (aside from the need to take a deep breath occasionally) - it's that some gamers are the most conservative individuals you will ever come across...

 

The funniest thing about this "logic" is that Bioware never bothered repeating the formula. Not even once. DAO, DA2, and DAI are all dramatically different games.

 

This isn't Assassin's Creed, where you had AC2, AC: Brotherhood and AC: Revelations running on essentially the same thing with minor variations. You had DAO, it was what it was, and then Bioware took it out back and gave it the Ol' Yeller.

 

It doesn't count as "conservative" or "never moving on" if you don't actually ever repeat anything. I've never quite understood the people that throw this cliche out the door, and wonder if they actually bothered playing anything that wasn't the current title.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Also, while I do agree that Bioware seems to be tailoring their games (more and more)to console players, it is important to note that they have been doing this for a long time.  DA:O was but the first example.  On it's release, they specifically said they wanted to reach a wider (console) audience.  It's where the sales are.

 

KOTOR ring a bell? Jade Empire? Mass Effect?

[Phonantiphon]

The funniest thing about this "logic" is that Bioware never bothered repeating the formula. Not even once. DAO, DA2, and DAI are all dramatically different games.

 

This isn't Assassin's Creed, where you had AC2, AC: Brotherhood and AC: Revelations running on essentially the same thing with minor variations. You had DAO, it was what it was, and then Bioware took it out back and gave it the Ol' Yeller.

 

It doesn't count as "conservative" or "never moving on" if you don't actually ever repeat anything. I've never quite understood the people that throw this cliche out the door, and wonder if they actually bothered playing anything that wasn't the current title.

You are aware that I personally was being sarcastic, yes?

[Paul E Dangerously]

You are aware that I personally was being sarcastic, yes?

 

Yes, but there are about a hundred people who say it legitimately for every one who doesn't. I mean, this thread's pretty much full to bursting on it.

[Phonantiphon]

Heh, thought I'd check, you can never tell sometimes!

[AlanC9]

Irony and the BSN don't mix too well.

[Sidney]

The funniest thing about this "logic" is that Bioware never bothered repeating the formula. Not even once. DAO, DA2, and DAI are all dramatically different games.

 

Not they aren't. They are different in the details.There hasn't even been a shift as dramatic as ME1 to ME2 in this series. This formula is on repeat in DAO just like they've repeated it since BG1, through KoTOR and now the DA* series.  Those games are all far more the same than they are different.

[Nerevar-as]

I would rather see the franchise move forward rather than copy dated mechanics.. Even with its flaws I prefer DA:I to Origins. 

What dated mechanics? And how can they be more dated than DA:I´s attempts at being a brawler?

[Ashen Nedra]

@Astylith:  Giving RPG pedigrees (or pedigrees of any sort) for validation of opinion is irrelevant - so I'll skip that. 

 

I don't really just "love" RPGs as a genre... I find them to actually be a kind of artistic/spiritual interaction between individual and story that harkens back to more Joseph Campbell (wiki him if you need) tribal times around the campfire with the village elder.  

 

Now, getting crazy out of the way - I draw a major distinction between RPG and CRPG. 

 

That being said - the strength of CRPGs has yet to be tapped.  The DM Client, Player Client, Toolset of Neverwinter Nights generated Persistent Worlds that were the first thing to ever come close to tabletop - but for whatever reason, the game I consider truly before it's time (I'm not talking single player), did not stick with Bioware regardless of their promise the DA:O would have some, or all, of those features. 

 

So, for me, that leaves "the generic CRPG I've been playing in spirit since Gold Box games".  

 

The most unhappy people are, to me, not roleplayers - but character builders.  That they consider this one of, if not the, most important aspect of RPing.  When taken in that light, regardless of how much I disagree, I could perhaps see how DA:I can disappoint. 

 

However - I'm a storyteller (back to a little crazy) - and building characters with numbers and stat blocks and little perks with titles isn't the most important part to "character building".  It's the choices I make in game and how I perceive those choices to have meaning for the mental state and the story of the character I've projected into that world.  

 

I was very clear that DA:I is not perfect for me - but I believe it is a major success for it's time and an advancement of the genre. 

 

What I cannot abide is this rose colored glasses notion that DA:O was somehow innovative... it wasn't, at all.  It was "more of the same" in a nice package.  I used to really love DA:O until I started listening to the arguments that used it against DA:I.  

 

Bioware, as a company, cannot be "Retro-RPG" as a niche... they need to move ever forward.  People stuck in their "traditional RPG" roots might not like that because people who are stuck in their past never like new things.  

 

And that's fine - but passing off antiquated styles as "the way things should be" smacks of a "get off my lawn" mentality that, as an aging gamer, I am loathe to abide. 

You're referring to a Jungian anthropologist on a North-American forum? Even I won't go there. Stick to Levi-Strauss, or Marc Bloch, or C. Geertz like everybody else.

 

Teasing apart, I fully agree that NW was a masterpiece because of the community and the community only. The good olden Bioware gave the Web and gamers marvelous tools to play with (the OC was ridiculous of course but that wasn't the point of the game).

 

It gave me hope in human nature and creativity, and I'm not being sarcastic, like, at all.

 

 

DAI could have been a masterpiece.  The demanding laws of commerce made it a mediocre game, at least on PC, imho.

[luism]

You're right, it meant absolutely nothing. That decision was supposed to have lasting repercussions, obviously it did not. You can't blame Origins for that, the game left enough doors open. You can blame the teams that worked on DA2 and Inquisition for making that choice mean absolutely nothing.

You make a solid point though, Origins gave you great ways to deal with certain situations. Multiple options to tackle an issue... even if in the end it didn't matter. I'm sorry, but I'd rather have the illusion of choice than "bring me 10x bear teeth" followed by "thanks have another repeatable 10x whatever quest".

Inquisition has no life. It's an empty sandbox filled with dead npcs that just stand there to give the player endless fetch quests. It's a huge world with nothing in it.

Allistair -10 May mean nothing now that they have the gift dlc. However at the time of my first play through I was so emotionally vested I. My game that I actually reloaded to an old save and replayed the redcliffe mission again after that conversation with allistair.

You see I sided with the Templars at the tower and killed jowan with the murder knife on the way in to the castle and had no way of saving Connor.

I had to go back a long way to make things right. I felt so bad.

So to the people who try to compare decisions in origins to 2 and 2.5 and say they are just as weak I just cant agree. There are too many profound decisions in origins that really had an impact on the player and his warden. They were throughout the game and they came down to mo re than just well we get this outcome.

The only one I thought was meaningless was ironically the final outcome of the sacred ashes Eamon helps you regardless if you let his entire family and his village die.

[ORTesc]

This is why my other thread was completely removed, not even locked! Because I make 32 page threads.

[pdusen]

Personally, I wouldn't buy Origins 2. Not unless they addressed the serious gameplay problems that keep me from wanting to replay Origins. Except then it wouldn't be Origins 2 anymore, so I guess that would defeat the purpose.

[Phonantiphon]

It's got nothing to do with 32 page threads, it's got to do with the scurrilous rubbish that was pervading them.
Don't flatter yourself.

[Destello]

The point is that gender has changed.

DAO = RPG

DA2 / DAI = A-RPG

Combat defines basically the game type, in RPGs characters fight alone and their sheets are the key to win battles, in A-RPGs "you" win battles fighting instead the characters "overwriting" their sheets constantly with your player's reflexes.

The only similitude between both is the name and the lore, but they are and they feel as completely different sagas.

[Shechinah]

(to Destello) You mean genre, right?

I'm not familiar enough with the terminology to tell if it is an error or not but thought I'd asked to avoid confusion.

[Cyonan]

The point is that gender has changed.

DAO = RPG

DA2 / DAI = A-RPG

Combat defines basically the game type, in RPGs characters fight alone and their sheets are the key to win battles, in A-RPGs "you" win battles fighting instead the characters "overwriting" their sheets constantly with your player's reflexes.

The only similitude between both is the name and the lore, but they are and they feel as completely different sagas.

 

So does Inquisition become a RPG again when I specialize in Knight-Enchanter and Spirit Blade makes me immortal?

 

Although really while I kind of see what you're going for the definition needs a bit of refining. Origins still required personal skill provided you didn't code the game's tactics menu to do everything for you. You could easily "overwrite" a bad sheet with good skill.

 

Likewise, Inquisition and DA2 don't really need good reflexes because of the pause button and you can have a good build render personal skill pretty irrelevant.

 

To be honest throwing the word action in front of it mostly suggest to me "We aren't like traditional RPGs but we didn't know what to call it". I mean, Diablo calls itself an action RPG even though it's got all the character sheet numbers of Origins.

 

and yes, I believe you mean genre rather than gender =P

[katokires]

So does Inquisition become a RPG again when I specialize in Knight-Enchanter and Spirit Blade makes me immortal?

 

Although really while I kind of see what you're going for the definition needs a bit of refining. Origins still required personal skill provided you didn't code the game's tactics menu to do everything for you. You could easily "overwrite" a bad sheet with good skill.

 

Likewise, Inquisition and DA2 don't really need good reflexes because of the pause button and you can have a good build render personal skill pretty irrelevant.

 

To be honest throwing the word action in front of it mostly suggest to me "We aren't like traditional RPGs but we didn't know what to call it". I mean, Diablo calls itself an action RPG even though it's got all the character sheet numbers of Origins.

 

and yes, I believe you mean genre rather than gender =P

I did never need player skill in a Bioware RPG before (Mass Effect is a shooter and Jade Empire an action game). Even if combat was the same the simple fact that there is jump in this game would completely ruin it for me unless I could play from the first second to the 40th playthough without ever having to jump. I don't play action, Bioware forced action on me. DA will fail, I need it to.

[Cyonan]

I did never need player skill in a Bioware RPG before (Mass Effect is a shooter and Jade Empire an action game). Even if combat was the same the simples fact that there is jump in this game would completely ruin it for me unless I could play from the first second to the 40th playthough without ever having to jump. I don't play action, Bioware forced action on me. DA will fail, I need it to.

 

Play Mage, spec into Knight-Enchanter and boom, player skill becomes optional =P

 

I'm not sure how jumping makes such a huge difference, and the whole "I need it to fail" just sounds overly dramatic. It's like not Dragon Age is the only RPG in existence.

[tmp7704]

Even if combat was the same the simple fact that there is jump in this game would completely ruin it for me unless I could play from the first second to the 40th playthough without ever having to jump. I don't play action, Bioware forced action on me.

Spoiler: you can get through entire play through of DAI without ever having to jump. It's not forced on you.

[phantomrachie]

I did never need player skill in a Bioware RPG before (Mass Effect is a shooter and Jade Empire an action game). Even if combat was the same the simple fact that there is jump in this game would completely ruin it for me unless I could play from the first second to the 40th playthough without ever having to jump. I don't play action, Bioware forced action on me. DA will fail, I need it to.

 

ME and JE are both RPGs, perhaps not the type of RPG that you like but that doesn't mean they are not RPGs. 

 

I have to say the fact that you didn't need player skill to play DA:O & DA2, is kinda strange to me.

 

With the possible except of BG 2, I don't think I've ever played a videogame RPG where my skill as a player couldn't override my character's character sheet.

 

It depends on the build of course, but certain types of builds normally require at least some level of player skill to succeed. 

 

In DA:I - a Knight Enchanter Mage is all about the character skills, were as a Tempest Rogue is becomes more awesome in the hands of a more skilled player or with a less skilled player on lower difficulties. 

[AlanC9]

Although really while I kind of see what you're going for the definition needs a bit of refining. Origins still required personal skill provided you didn't code the game's tactics menu to do everything for you.

Well, assigning the tactics correctly is also a skill, isn't it?

[Biotic Flash Kick]

why would bioware want money and success?

 

thats why they made da2 

[Skeevley]

That's what I have been saying. Sadly us DAO lovers, are in the minority now.

 

I don't think we are... Look at the number of likes the OP is getting. I think new GREAT RPG game based on an updated DAO engine is exactly what the majority of Dragon Age fans are STILL looking for. The beautiful combat (and yes, I'm one of the many who HATE the moronic/spastic/button-mashing action-based combat in DA2 and DAI and LOVE the great cinematic well-paced combat in DAO), the truly great characters, the amazing cut-scenes that still give you goose-bumps when you see them again after all these years, the controls which are as close to 100% perfect as possible, the UI which works beautifully and which matches the atmosphere/genre of the game, the reasonably-well-paced leveling, the inclusion of fundamental basic things NEEDED in an RPG such as (*gasp*) character abilities, relationships and romances which seem to actually develop, great voice-acting, the side-quests that are interesting instead of being boring and burdensome, the inclusion of freaking tactics, a camera which works beautifully... The list simply goes on and on and on and on (kind of like the useless quests in DAI).

 

Did DA2 and DAI do a few things better than DAO? Um... Maybe, but it's hard to think of anything outside of technical issues such as the original DAO textures being a bit on the "soft" side (which, honestly, isn't even a problem since the point of the game isn't the graphics... Plus, give me game designers who understand Aesthetics > Graphics any day...) and the engine not really being able to use large amounts of memory, thus making it a bit unstable with higher-resolution texture packs (although those do actually work fine for most of us).

 

When you have something that is as close to 100% perfect as it can get, don't throw it out, just feed some well-thought-out new stuff and then spend your time on the important aspects.

 

I bet if Bioware release a game called Dragon Age Origins 2, based on the old (modable!) engine with minor updates and took the time to make the game a great as DAO, it would sell like wildfire (well, assuming there is anyone left who trusts Bioware/EA).

[grimgim]

snip

 

As if the side quests in DOA were the pinacle of fun and originality.

 

And if anything, character and party interaction kept getting better with each game released.

 

Must be fun seeing rose all the time, I guess.