207 réponses à ce sujet

[Shahadem]

Why was Hawke even in the game? Any generic character could have given the same lines and nothing would have been different. In fact, Hawke wasn't even associated with the Grey Wardens in DA2 and had no real reason to care about them. The only thing that Hawke would have been uniquely qualified to talk about and would have warranted her inclusion, was an expanded mage verse templar war because she was at the heart of that war in Kirkwall. But that was already resolved long before Hawke entered the scene.

[Shahadem]

Well Hawkes mum was killed by one and there was a whole lot of messed uo shite going on. 

 

Hawke's mom was killed by an insane necromancer/Frankenstein using alchemy, not magic. So Hawke should be very anti-science.

[robertthebard]

Why was Hawke even in the game? Any generic character could have given the same lines and nothing would have been different. In fact, Hawke wasn't even associated with the Grey Wardens in DA2 and had no real reason to care about them. The only thing that Hawke would have been uniquely qualified to talk about and would have warranted her inclusion, was an expanded mage verse templar war because she was at the heart of that war in Kirkwall. But that was already resolved long before Hawke entered the scene.

Load up DA 2, play Legacy, and come back and let us know what you've found out.

[MKDAWUSS]

Mine was a Reaver (explaining the blood smear), so...

I (at first) had more issue with warrior Hawke going with a sword and shield (bland ones at that) even though throughout DA2 mine went with greatswords. Then I didn't care.

[Enrychan]

I also understand those who don't see why Hawke should be so involved in Warden business. In my world state it makes sense because both her brother and her lover are Wardens so it's kind of obvious that she has some interest in stopping Corypheus' "fake Calling". But another Hawke may not have personal motivations other than "I fought Corypheus once", which doesn't explain why s/he is informed about the fake Calling anyway. I don't think s/he exchanged letters with Larius/Janeka after the events of Legacy (/irony). And s/he met Stroud/Alistair once by chance during the Qunari uprising in Kirkwall. There are ways to make it work, but it seems kind of forced to me.

[Marshal Moriarty]

Precisely - the connection between Hawke and the wardens is highly variable depending on your choices. Having her be so invested in this storyline is bizarre. So she meets the Wardens in Legacy, and this then trumps all the other things she was far more deeply invested in?! Given that all the wardens she meets in Legacy are to a greater or lesser extent already corrupted by Corypheus, its hard to imagine where this perceived closeness to the Order is coming from - unless of course her sibling is in the Wardens.

 

You can pretty it up all you like, but we all know what's going on here. Bioware have their canon version of events (making Legacy itself canon despite it being optional DLC is a bit of give away on that front), and whilst they may pay lip service to our choices and decisions, events only really make sense if you accept their canon (Mass Effect 2 was the poster child for this kind of thing with the Paragon ending of ME1 getting swept under the carpet etc etc).

 

Bioware clearly approached this from the 'Hawke's sibling is a warden, met Stroud the full amount of times etc' and then bent and stretched the other possbilities to try and get them to fit - they failed. If you didn't do the Sibling is Warden route, then this whole storyline makes non sense. Hawke does not have the connection to the Wardens that the game claims, is not the close friend to Stroud that it claims, and her views on religion, the Divine, spirits, the fade, blood magic etc were all at the discretion of the DA2 player - but Bioware ignores all that trying to make the character into a 'one size fits all; NPC for this quest.

 

Again, they failed. It was completely the wrong way to bring the character back. Each player of DA2 decides what Hawke is like - NOT Bioware! If they tried to pull this kind of thing with Commander Shepard, the internet would explode in rage. Imagine if Shepard was to come back in ME4 for a 30 minute tag along, making all kinds of absolute judgements that your Shepard didn't in any way hold? If they took the complete opposite stance on the Genophage or the Council or who was to blame between the Geth and Quarians etc etc? There would be blood in the streets if they did something like that!

 

Or of course they could bring Shepard back as a Quasar machine repair man, because you know... he passed by a Quasar machine... once... ever.

[KaiserShep]

I can't help but wonder what BioWare intends to do to the Warden character if he survives the ordeal at Adamant. 

[BubbleDncr]

I enjoyed seeing Hawke again, enough to ignore the fact that my blood-mage Hawke who barely knew any Wardens was suddenly anti-blood magic and friends with Wardens. 

 

But in my ideal world, Hawke's re-appearance would have been more related to something she actually did in DA2 (mage/templar conflict, red lyrium, qunari), and wouldn't have her bad-mouthing a specialization you can take in game. 

[KaiserShep]

I don't mind Hawke knowing Stroud or whoever, but I do mind her leaving with the Wardens no matter what you do. 

Hawke: I really should head to Weisshaupt.

 

Inquisitor: Oh no you don't. You're working for me now. Don't you wanna be there when I murder knife Corypheus? 

 

Hawke: You certainly know all the right things to say. See you guys at Skyhold!

[Marshal Moriarty]

On a somewhat tenously related note (which makes it ideal for this thread), someone should probably tell the Wardens that since they no longer have their Griffons for rapid deployment, having their main base be so far off the beatren track... is kind of a stupid move. Its becoming increasingly silly that whenever anything happens with the wardens, their leaders are so far away doing... apparently nothing, that they can't be reached.

 

So on that note, I am pleased that someone is at least addressing this problem at last. And having Stroud give his life would impart a sense of responsibility on the survivors to see something done about this. That is fair enough (although it still seems odd that she'd leave immediatly, instead of dealing with Corypheus first). The issue is over the whole inital premise - that without a warden sibling and the associated meetings with Stroud to justify that premise, this plotline doesn't match up with the playthrough that many of us had in DA2.

 

So if the whole basis for the quest feels out of the blue, and with the quite frankly awful execution of how Hawke is used, and what she says and does not matching up with how we each played her, this quest was never going to work.

 

And so surprise surprise - it doesn't work!

[robertthebard]

On a somewhat tenously related note (which makes it ideal for this thread), someone should probably tell the Wardens that since they no longer have their Griffons for rapid deployment, having their main base be so far off the beatren track... is kind of a stupid move. Its becoming increasingly silly that whenever anything happens with the wardens, their leaders are so far away doing... apparently nothing, that they can't be reached.
 
So on that note, I am pleased that someone is at least addressing this problem at last. And having Stroud give his life would impart a sense of responsibility on the survivors to see something done about this. That is fair enough (although it still seems odd that she'd leave immediatly, instead of dealing with Corypheus first). The issue is over the whole inital premise - that without a warden sibling and the associated meetings with Stroud to justify that premise, this plotline doesn't match up with the playthrough that many of us had in DA2.
 
So if the whole basis for the quest feels out of the blue, and with the quite frankly awful execution of how Hawke is used, and what she says and does not matching up with how we each played her, this quest was never going to work.
 
And so surprise surprise - it doesn't work!

Except that that's not universally true. My Hawkes were not Blood Mages. My Hawkes fought Cory, and Grey Wardens, and have a Warden sibling. So the whole scenario played out just fine. Didn't they say, back in the DA 2 days that Blood Magic was a playable mechanic, but that they weren't going to support it? It seems like I read that somewhere, but I don't recall where. Given the events in DA 2, I'm not surprised at all that my Hawkes were a little pissed off about Blood Magic, and especially in context with the Wardens using it, since they forced their father to use it to seal Cory in the first place, and then tried to kill me to let him out. It's amazing, to me, how much people go on about handwaving, while they're handwaving events in Legacy to support their claims.

[Fardreamer]

Except that that's not universally true. My Hawkes were not Blood Mages. My Hawkes fought Cory, and Grey Wardens, and have a Warden sibling. So the whole scenario played out just fine. Didn't they say, back in the DA 2 days that Blood Magic was a playable mechanic, but that they weren't going to support it? It seems like I read that somewhere, but I don't recall where. Given the events in DA 2, I'm not surprised at all that my Hawkes were a little pissed off about Blood Magic, and especially in context with the Wardens using it, since they forced their father to use it to seal Cory in the first place, and then tried to kill me to let him out. It's amazing, to me, how much people go on about handwaving, while they're handwaving events in Legacy to support their claims.

 

I doubt they said that.  DA2 was marketed on being able to play as a blood mage.  You could also be a blood mage in Origins.  Just look the at the DA2 trailer... Hawke is using Blood magic.   That's what the smear on his face is for.

 

[KaiserShep]

I always hated that smear. Dunno why it even has to relate to blood magic. There were so many damn blood mages in DA2, and none of them had any crazy blood markings. Besides, what's the point if you play a rogue or something? 

[TheLittleBird]

People... did you forget Hawke literally tells you why they've been having contact with a Grey Warden if your Inquisitor asks him/her? I'll quote:

 

"I've got a friend in the Wardens. He was investigating something unrelated for me."

---> *fast forward to later in the conversation* --->

"The Templars in Kirkwall were using a strange form of lyrium. It was red. I'd hoped the Wardens could tell me more about it."

[PrinceLionheart]

Seriously, what does Hawke have against blood magic? It's not like there was a bunch of crazy blood mages in Kirkwall and one of them mutilated his mother.

[Marshal Moriarty]

It must be wonderfiul to live in your world robert...

 

So because it fits your Hawke, then that's fine? Screw the rest of us, because it works for your version of Hawke? What planet are you living on where you think this reasoning is sound?! Try to understand that just because it fit *your* Hawke, doesn't mean it fit *our* versions of Hawke, and that many aspects of what she says and does make no sense under those circumstances. People can come with all the reason they like for why Hawke would do this, and wouldn't care about that, but it MEANS NOTHING! You can't dictate to others how their version of Hawke was or how their character felt about things!

 

My Hawke for example disliked blood magic generally speaking, but didn't hate all blood mages because she accepted that she simply wasn't qualified to talk on the subject much, not being a mage herself. And she thought Merril was a good person, involved in dangerous magic, but didn't use that to brand Merril as being evil. She hated Quentin for what he did, but recognized that it was the man who was evil, not the mere fact that he was a mage and/or using blood magic. He was an insane man who killed her mother - *that* is why my Hawke hated him. The world is more complex than Blood Magic evil, Other magic Good. Or Qunari evil, Fereldens Nice Guys. But all of this is just how *my* Hawke felt about things, and I wouldn't want my choices or my Hawke to be forced on everyone else, even if I could..

 

And please to those who brought it up, let's not start on the whole Red Lyrium thing, because that's a huge retcon by itself. Its lyrium... corrupted by the blight! I'm sorry... what?! I could have sworn I travelled extensively through the Deep Roads in 'A Paragon of her Kind' through oceans and oceans of darkspawn, with Blight taint everywhere and open lyrium veins aplenty. And there wasn't a hint of red lyrium about there. And the Dwarfs have been fighting the darkspawn for generations - but they'd never seen Red Lyrium before. Did they just miss it... for centuries?! Well, this doesn't sound retcon at all, does it...

 

The whole point of the Red Lyrium was it was an evil dragged up from the bowels of the earth by the greed of mortals, a karmic punishment for Varric, Bartrand and Hawke's get rich quick scheme. I can completely go along with the idea that Hawke would feel responsible if more of this stuff started appearing (though actually it turns out to be Varric's fault indirectly). The problems are in the execution. Namely:

 

1) The disrespectful and anticlimatic way that Hawke is kicked from Main Hero to being Demoted to Extra is extremely jarring. All of her existing plot threads were unceremoniously dumped to make way for this one. The connection to the Qunari (including a potential long, involved process of diplomacy and applied action to receive Ba Salit An status, which the Inquisitor gets for killing 4 Venatori on a hilltop - with friends and support characters in tow!), the abandoned plot of Orlais' anger at Prosper de Montfort's death, her relationships with basically everyone else (particularly of course her love interests etc), what she feels about the current state of Kirkwall.

 

Everything that you dealt with in DA2, which covers a huge range of experiences and plot threads that were still wide open for further development are just dropped to accomodate this one story. Because Hawke is no longer the main character, and trying to fit a previously main character with a player decided personality and when her opinions on every specific issue were previously decided by the player, is like trying to put a square peg in a round role. IT DOESN'T FRICKING WORK!

 

2) Quite simply, Hawke is reckoned to have a deeper connection to the Wardens and Stroud/Alistair/whoever even when that is only true for those who took that specific path in DA2.. Inquisition implies a close bond between the two that new gamers will not realize is completely artificial, and which doesn't apply unless a very specific path was taken. For those who didn't have their sibling join the wardens, this retcon of the worst kind. And again, if you must do this storyline, why do it by introducing Stroud into the storyline, when he had no place in it to begin with?! Why remove all of the characters who did feature, and all the nuances of how you played that mission and what happened, for this lazy one size fits all approach? Her sibling has just as much reason to want Corypheus dead, she has unfinished business with Larius/Janeka etc.

 

All dropped, because this mission is not really about Hawke, despite her appearance in it. Its about the silly Wardens plotline in Inquisition (which is unforgivably poor in its own right), and the 'what actually happened to the Inquisitor at the Temple of Sacred Ashes'. That's it - Hawke's involvement is little more than a cameo and IMO is just Bioware signing off on the character because they don't intend to do anything more with it.

[Ivalo]

I loved Hawke's maker's bossom comment in Fade so much. That's the sarcastic Hawke I fell in love with.

 

I didn't see Hawke any way out of character, instead developed.

Time has passed, loads of people want Hawke's head on plate. He had to take his family into safety, abandon his lover and go into hiding himself... Things like that tend to change people. Even if they are humorous and out-going. Same goes for blood magic.

[Robert Trevelyan]

My biggest complaint was that the Hawke I imported into my playthrough was a very light-hearted character in DA2. Sometimes a little sarcastic, but mostly treading a peaceful and kind approach to every scenario. Trying to recreate him in the DAI character creator was tough enough (with the very different hairstyles and aesthetic) but once he was introduced the larger problem is this:

 

DAI Hawke is always growly, aggressive and dour.

 

Seeing a character I intentionally created in DA2 to be likable and cheerful it felt very jarring from the very first conversation to see him snarling and grimacing his way through the conversation.

 

Given that The Keep ask you to specify whether your Hawke was Kindly, Sarcastic or Aggressive it seemed odd that this selection seems to have no bearing on how Hawke behaves in DAI.

[Nightshade715]

I was one of those people who really wanted to see The Warden and Hawke again but I also knew that I shouldn't expect them to be a lot like how I played them because differences were inevitable, but from everything I've seen my Hawke was pretty in-character.

 

But I still agree with everyone who said that it would be better off if BioWare didn't include previous protagonists as cameos in future Dragon Age games if Hawke's cameo disappointed quite a lot of people.

 

Just a simple reference saying that they're alive seems quite enough.

 

Edit: Added some stuff.

[robertthebard]

It must be wonderfiul to live in your world robert...
 
So because it fits your Hawke, then that's fine? Screw the rest of us, because it works for your version of Hawke? What planet are you living on where you think this reasoning is sound?! Try to understand that just because it fit *your* Hawke, doesn't mean it fit *our* versions of Hawke, and that many aspects of what she says and does make no sense under those circumstances. People can come with all the reason they like for why Hawke would do this, and wouldn't care about that, but it MEANS NOTHING! You can't dictate to others how their version of Hawke was or how their character felt about things!

What planet are you on? So I'm the only one in this entire thread that felt like Hawke was portrayed accurately based on the events of DA 2 and Legacy?
 

My Hawke for example disliked blood magic generally speaking, but didn't hate all blood mages because she accepted that she simply wasn't qualified to talk on the subject much, not being a mage herself. And she thought Merril was a good person, involved in dangerous magic, but didn't use that to brand Merril as being evil. She hated Quentin for what he did, but recognized that it was the man who was evil, not the mere fact that he was a mage and/or using blood magic. He was an insane man who killed her mother - *that* is why my Hawke hated him. The world is more complex than Blood Magic evil, Other magic Good. Or Qunari evil, Fereldens Nice Guys. But all of this is just how *my* Hawke felt about things, and I wouldn't want my choices or my Hawke to be forced on everyone else, even if I could..

So you honestly believe that 2 lines could have fixed all that? My Hawke saw blood mages turn into abominations and try to kill me, and an abomination that had been in my party blow up the Chantry. Which part of this should be considered "not their fault", or more accurately, "not the fault of blood magic", which, if they'd left it as it was in DA O meant they made a deal with a demon to learn it? You see, that's where the mishandling was, if one wanted to be a Blood Mage in DA 2, one should have had to strike a deal with a demon to get it. Yes, after the unlock in Origins, you just use it, but one of your Wardens had to actually unlock it first. In DA 2, it was a freebie spec. That's where it was mishandled.
 

And please to those who brought it up, let's not start on the whole Red Lyrium thing, because that's a huge retcon by itself. Its lyrium... corrupted by the blight! I'm sorry... what?! I could have sworn I travelled extensively through the Deep Roads in 'A Paragon of her Kind' through oceans and oceans of darkspawn, with Blight taint everywhere and open lyrium veins aplenty. And there wasn't a hint of red lyrium about there. And the Dwarfs have been fighting the darkspawn for generations - but they'd never seen Red Lyrium before. Did they just miss it... for centuries?! Well, this doesn't sound retcon at all, does it...

Let me ask you, how extensively did you really travel, since Orzammar was never off the map. You're claiming here that you have seen what, every square inch of the Deep Roads? A tunnel system that, even in DA O was said to cover the entirety of Thedas before the first Blight? Here's a hint: You didn't even see the entire tip of the iceberg that is the Deep Roads, let alone the whole iceberg. The real "retcon" here is you believing you've seen more than 0.0001% of the Deep Roads. Based on this alone, how reliable are you for past game information? You obviously believe you've seen more of the Deep Roads than anyone, despite those of us that played the same game you did.
 

The whole point of the Red Lyrium was it was an evil dragged up from the bowels of the earth by the greed of mortals, a karmic punishment for Varric, Bartrand and Hawke's get rich quick scheme. I can completely go along with the idea that Hawke would feel responsible if more of this stuff started appearing (though actually it turns out to be Varric's fault indirectly). The problems are in the execution. Namely:
 
1) The disrespectful and anticlimatic way that Hawke is kicked from Main Hero to being Demoted to Extra is extremely jarring. All of her existing plot threads were unceremoniously dumped to make way for this one. The connection to the Qunari (including a potential long, involved process of diplomacy and applied action to receive Ba Salit An status, which the Inquisitor gets for killing 4 Venatori on a hilltop - with friends and support characters in tow!), the abandoned plot of Orlais' anger at Prosper de Montfort's death, her relationships with basically everyone else (particularly of course her love interests etc), what she feels about the current state of Kirkwall.
 
Everything that you dealt with in DA2, which covers a huge range of experiences and plot threads that were still wide open for further development are just dropped to accomodate this one story. Because Hawke is no longer the main character, and trying to fit a previously main character with a player decided personality and when her opinions on every specific issue were previously decided by the player, is like trying to put a square peg in a round role. IT DOESN'T FRICKING WORK!

So the only way they could have made this work for you was if they had shifted the focus from the Inquisitor to Hawke, making the game DA 2 2.0 instead of Inquisition. Sorry, but the reason all these threads were dropped can be found on the DA 2 forums, and even in these forums, where people are still running it down as </= ME 3's ending. So if you want to start condemning people for how Hawke's cameo was handled, go over there and go to town.
 

2) Quite simply, Hawke is reckoned to have a deeper connection to the Wardens and Stroud/Alistair/whoever even when that is only true for those who took that specific path in DA2.. Inquisition implies a close bond between the two that new gamers will not realize is completely artificial, and which doesn't apply unless a very specific path was taken. For those who didn't have their sibling join the wardens, this retcon of the worst kind. And again, if you must do this storyline, why do it by introducing Stroud into the storyline, when he had no place in it to begin with?! Why remove all of the characters who did feature, and all the nuances of how you played that mission and what happened, for this lazy one size fits all approach? Her sibling has just as much reason to want Corypheus dead, she has unfinished business with Larius/Janeka etc.

How is this a retcon of any kind? If Alistair is King, he can't show up in Kirkwall during the final battle. Stroud does. I'm not sure if Loghain can, I never got him, but I have gotten both Stroud and Alistair in that spot. With Alistair dead, or a drunk, Stroud is the default, as far as I can tell, especially with Alistair dead, and Loghain dying killing the Archdemon. So the real issue here is "It wasn't the HoF". This is the whole problem isn't it? BioWare didn't give you what you really wanted, the HoF, so we get this rant about how Hawke was mishandled. Hawke's unfinished business is with Cory. Hawke is the reason that Cory is running around getting to be the Big Bad^TM because Hawke let him out of his cell. This is also why the events in Legacy happened, whether the player did Legacy or not. The only thing missing from the end of Legacy to confirm Cory's return was "I'll be back".
 

All dropped, because this mission is not really about Hawke, despite her appearance in it. Its about the silly Wardens plotline in Inquisition (which is unforgivably poor in its own right), and the 'what actually happened to the Inquisitor at the Temple of Sacred Ashes'. That's it - Hawke's involvement is little more than a cameo and IMO is just Bioware signing off on the character because they don't intend to do anything more with it.

All dropped because DA 2 got less of a reception here than ME 3's ending. You are right about one thing though, it wasn't about Hawke, and it was never meant to be. It was about what's going on at Adamant Fortress. Hawke had a cameo in the mission. This game is about the Inquisitor, not Hawke, and certainly not about the HoF. So full circle: What planet are you on?

[PrinceLionheart]

I hope people understand threads like this are the reason why The Warden will never physically appear in another game.

[WildOrchid]

I loved Hawke's maker's bossom comment in Fade so much. That's the sarcastic Hawke I fell in love with.

 

I didn't see Hawke any way out of character, instead developed.

Time has passed, loads of people want Hawke's head on plate. He had to take his family into safety, abandon his lover and go into hiding himself... Things like that tend to change people. Even if they are humorous and out-going. Same goes for blood magic.

 

Yeah, this. At first i was like "wait what.... this isn't something my Hawke would say.." and then realized that time and the fact they went all "witch hunt" on her arse, could change her a bit.

 

But she still was the snarky assh0le i loved.

The only thing that annoyed me is that no matter what you do, you can't tell her to stay. Ugh. Y u no stay and help me?

[robertthebard]

I hope people understand threads like this are the reason why The Warden will never physically appear in another game.

The irony here? I believe that this was my first post in this thread.

[PrinceLionheart]

The irony here? I believe that this was my first post in this thread.

 

I love how you put it. And given how people have a really bad habit of putting The Warden on this "Most Awesome Person who ever lived" pedestal, the amount of vitriol would be unbearable.