99 réponses à ce sujet

[SNascimento]

i, Exploration(the good): Probably one of the best things about Dragon Age Inquisition is its exploration. I spent dozen of hours just walking around, discovering things and slaughtering things that moved. I'd say there were two reasons for that: One the environments were utterly beautiful and varied. I can't wait to see the glory of space coming alive in the next Mass Effect. Inquisition showed how the Frostbyte engine can create amazing scenery. And two: there were interesting things to do, more on that in a moment.

ii. Exploration (the bad): As amazing as it was to explore in Dragon Age it had a negative consequence: how it make the main story feel disconnected. I'm hardly the first and certainly won't be the last to bring up the problem of a narrative driven game in a open world frame, but it's a challenge the next Mass Effect will have to tackle, and if anything Dragon Age showed how it won't work. 

iii. Side Quests (the good) (minor DAI spoilers): I've seen people saying Dragon Age was just endless fetch quests and even though it's easy to see where it come from, i wouldn't say it's correct. DAI featured some incredible side missions, many involving unique places and interesting stories, so they were good in themselves. But there is one that stands out. It was one that you went into a ancient Tevinter fortress, and it was frozen in time! You could see the frozen old soldiers and mages fighting demons, stones floating in the air as they never had the time to reach the ground and stuff. So not only the mission was amazing in itself, it had a very interesting quality: it was connected with the main story. We've already faced that kind of magic before, so that mission was besides all else a expoloration of DA's lore. And was infinitely better than a text discribing it. 

iv. Side Quests (the bad): As I said, calling DA Inquisition just fetch quests is wrong, but there were tons of it. And there are no need for it. Making the game longer doesn't make it better, and should the most powerful person in Thedas be looking for a lost animal when there is army marching to destroy everything? You can always ignore them, but it can create that feeling of not doing stuff. So a mission should be there became it's good and make the game better, not just to make it longer.

v. Less codex entries: There is a lot of written text in Inquisition and I feel a lot of it is not needed. You don't have to explain everything. There are people who like it, but there are times it can hurt the game. For example, while you're storming a fortress you shouldn't have to read about how a soldier lost his sword or something like that. You can read it latter I guess, but then you will have a ton of things to read and without the context in which they were found. But more importantly, that are better ways to convey information. I talked about the 'frozen time' mission above and it's a great example of it. If I remember correctly one of the developers told how they want more story through gameplay and I hope NME gets it right.

It's importantl to note that Mass Effect and Dragon Age are series with different DNAs. It's not because something works in one that it should be in the other. But they can learn for each other, and I hope some of the things in DAI will mean the next Mass Effect will get all of them right. 

 

[Jimbo_Gee79]

I would agree with everything apart from the codex entries part. Thing is you dont have to read them. It's entiely optional and doesnt take away from the game all that much. They are primarily there for people who havent played the game or dont really know whats going on. it's been a while since I put down Mass Effect 3 with a heavy heart and it would be nice to have a refresher in game.

 

I get that I could just search on the internet but it gives me something to read inbetween missions. Plus they have such excellent writers at Bioware so why not?

[Vazgen]

The last point might not have anything to do with the codex entries in ME universe. You see, DA codex is different. It has a place for small notes, letters etc. ME codex describes larger questions, like races, areas etc. Notes and such are handled with pop-ups like in ME3. Take, for example, Priority Earth. There are about 3 notes scattered throughout the war zone. They are short and player reads them after killing all enemies in the area, in a relative safety. They don't really impact the feeling of urgency throughout the mission, mostly because there are only three of them and they are short

[SNascimento]

I would agree with everything apart from the codex entries part. Thing is you dont have to read them. It's entiely optional and doesnt take away from the game all that much. They are primarily there for people who havent played the game or dont really know whats going on. it's been a while since I put down Mass Effect 3 with a heavy heart and it would be nice to have a refresher in game.

 

I get that I could just search on the internet but it gives me something to read inbetween missions. Plus they have such excellent writers at Bioware so why not?

But I have to read them!! 

Anyway, I just think that they can be more creative to how they give information. Writing it down is the most basic of them all. For example, one of the enemies in DAI are the red templars and there are several types of them. And each one has a codex entry explaining them. I would much rather have it told by the enemy design itself and to make you able to see it properly have a feature to view 3D models like Arkham games have. 

Or another example, pick the Marauder enemy from Mass Effect 3. It's obvious they were turians. And you can infer that they are leaders by the way they behave on the battlefield and also conclude that the reapers used the Turians because of their military tradition. Do we really need a codex entry saying that?

[ashwind]

The most important thing that ME:Next should learn from DA:I and ME3 is :

 

No more lackluster finale please. Dont ask us to amass an army, upgrade things, recruit agents etc only to find out that they have little to no impact come end game. 

[cap and gown]

i, Exploration(the good): Probably one of the best things about Dragon Age Inquisition is its exploration. I spent dozen of hours just walking around, discovering things and slaughtering things that moved. I'd say there were two reasons for that: One the environments were utterly beautiful and varied. I can't wait to see the glory of space coming alive in the next Mass Effect. Inquisition showed how the Frostbyte engine can create amazing scenery. And two: there were interesting things to do, more on that in a moment.
 

 

Well, I was not impressed, in part because of the bolded part. Just endless, pointless fighting. Skyrim was much better about this. Thedas felt like Cyrodil (Oblivion): who wants to go out in the wilderness? Its just one endless battle after another. Skyrim, OTOH, had many different kinds of encounters. It was fun to see who or what you would run into next. Sure, you might have to fight some bear or saber tooth cat, but you might also run into some people going to a wedding, or sharing some mead, or looking for refuge.

 

I didn't like the connection between loot and exploration either. Sure, you could find "loot" while exploring Skyrim, but most of it was unique items that I would use to decorate my houses. Like Trollsbane. In itself, the weapon was rather pathetic. But finding next to some guy who had killed by trolls was amusing, and then you could take it back home and display it on the wall.

 

Overall, I have not found exploration to be intrinsically rewarding in DAI. There is mostly the extrinsic reward of finding loot to sell. In Skryim exploration was intrinsically rewarding: what new people will I meet around the next bend? what new vignette will I encounter just over this crest? I am just not getting that from DAI. In fact, as you mention, the open world packed full of tiny little fetch quests is just beating the story into the ground.

[Nitrocuban]

If i had anything to say at BW, I'd make the devs play Fallout3/New Vegas extensively and let a good SF writer do the high level storyline.

[ZipZap2000]

I'd agree with everything but the codex i like coming across those and some of them would trigger quests or give you valuable information that when gathered together gave you a bigger picture. Also great for leveling up i think the first thing i look for when i find a new fort house or room in a ruin is notes left behind by others it makes the world feel more alive. 

 

I especially agree with roaming around killing everything you come across it's great when you come across a giant fighting a dragon only to have the dragon fly off and leave you to fight the giant on your own or suddenly have a great bear show up out of nowhere. It's better when the codex chasing combining with roaming, theres a quest where you find a note that leads you to the middle of nowhere and you get ambushed by a spider the size of a house. LOVE IT!

[TruthSerum]

Why on Earth would someone want LESS codex entries?....ffs don't read them.

[RoboticWater]

Why on Earth would someone want LESS codex entries?....ffs don't read them.

Unless I interpreted it incorrectly, I think SNascimento's point is that MENext should strive to weave exposition (or story in general) into the world rather than relegate it to discarded scraps of paper. Bioware should tell their stories more naturally through the environment (similar to the way cap and gown described above). This doesn't mean less codex entries per-se, but less exposition dumping and time wasted reading semi-relevant documents. People can relate more to scenes they can see and interact with; sure, I can read "soldier X died valiantly," but I can sympathize with a dead solder surrounded by corpses who seems to have died taking out the guy who stabbed him. Displaying lore is a bit harder, but news reports and character interaction can achieve a similar sympathetic effect.

 

Regardless, codex entries on lore and technology should remain (and hopefully expand) for those who are interested in the inner workings of the universe and its inhabitants (I see no reason not to have written records of such things), but Bioware should attempt to use this visual medium to the best of its abilities. While Mass Effect has never had a huge problem showing information rather than telling, doing it more couldn't hurt.

[JeffZero]

I'd add in that NME should ensure that it doesn't feel like it's missing a main quest or two toward the end, as DAI did (for me personally, at least!), which despite my general positive remarks for the game has left a somewhat sour taste in my mouth for the time being. In Mass Effect terms, I felt like we had something of a Virmire, but no Ilos. I know people harp on ME3's endgame constantly, but I'd far sooner take the Cerberus Headquarters + Earth + Citadel: The Return critpath over how disjointed DAI's endgame critpath seems; I'm guessing the writers/designers were going for something a bit more mundane with big promises for the future, but in the here and now, I'd have preferred something "bigger."

 

I haven't been on the DA forums much lately because I don't tend to enjoy surrounding myself in the negativity thata tends to follow people completing games, and as I said I mostly liked DAI. So I haven't really expressed myself about this before, and I'm uncertain if others have done the same to any noteworthy measure. Last I checked hardly anyone had beaten the game because everyone was absorbed with the side content, but since I got tired of it after a point I went ahead and finished the narrative while it still felt at least a little bit front-and-center, haha.

 

I agree with most of your list, too, S.

[SNascimento]

Unless I interpreted it incorrectly, I think SNascimento's point is that MENext should strive to weave exposition (or story in general) into the world rather than relegate it to discarded scraps of paper. Bioware should tell their stories more naturally through the environment (similar to the way cap and gown described above). This doesn't mean less codex entries per-se, but less exposition dumping and time wasted reading semi-relevant documents. People can relate more to scenes they can see and interact with; sure, I can read "soldier X died valiantly," but I can sympathize with a dead solder surrounded by corpses who seems to have died taking out the guy who stabbed him. Displaying lore is a bit harder, but news reports and character interaction can achieve a similar sympathetic effect.

 

Regardless, codex entries on lore and technology should remain (and hopefully expand) for those who are interested in the inner workings of the universe and its inhabitants (I see no reason not to have written records of such things), but Bioware should attempt to use this visual medium to the best of its abilities. While Mass Effect has never had a huge problem showing information rather than telling, doing it more couldn't hurt.

Exactly.

The Shadow Broker base in ME2 is a nice example of how both written text and visual approach can work. To the former we have the dossiers. Of course there were some better and some worse, but overall they were great and really gave further insight into ME2's squadmates. They made sense and they were presented in the right time and moment of the mission. To the latter we have those spy videos. I mean, seeing that reporter being punched by a Krogan is infinitely better than reading that it happened.

[Mcfly616]

 let a good SF writer do the high level storyline.

 Too late. Already got the lead writer from Halo 4 

[SNascimento]

I haven't been on the DA forums much lately because I don't tend to enjoy surrounding myself in the negativity thata tends to follow people completing games, and as I said I mostly liked DAI. 

It's off topic but I think it's worth saying. The DAI forum made me feel sorry for the developers of the game. I mean, I don't want everyone to just shout praises and love the game, it's only natural that there will be people who dislike it and wanted something else. But the thing is: it's extremely easy to see the amount of work that was put into the game and I believe that should buy some respect from the fans. But many people seem to be more interested in just coming here to say how terrible they think it is and keep saying it everywhere everytime like they want to punish the devs. 

It's good then that everywhere else DAI is getting the reception it deserves. 

[Mcfly616]

It's off topic but I think it's worth saying. The DAI forum made me feel sorry for the developers of the game. I mean, I don't want everyone to just shout praises and love the game, it's only natural that there will be people who dislike it and wanted something else. But the thing is: it's extremely easy to see the amount of work that was put into the game and I believe that should buy some respect from the fans. But many people seem to be more interested in just coming here to say how terrible they think it is and keep saying it everywhere everytime like they want to punish the devs. 

It's good then that everywhere else DAI is getting the reception it deserves. 

Sounds like ME3 a few years back....

[Vazgen]

I wasn't here when it happened, but what were the responses after ME2 launch? I can only guess that they were more temperate. 

I don't say DA:I deserves all the hate it gets (it does not IMO) but there is something to think of. Storyline and gameplay aside, which are quite subjective, bugs and PC controls are the most mentioned issues I've seen and those are the same for all players. One thing I always loved about Bioware games is that they were very well polished and you rarely encountered, like, any bugs. They are not like Bethesda games where it's wiser to wait for 6 official and unofficial patches to have a similar experience. Sadly, this trend seems to lose its positions to the open world aspect. It's simple, the more content you have to explore and experience, the harder it is to catch and squeeze all the bugs in the game. 

[Mcfly616]

I wasn't here when it happened, but what were the responses after ME2 launch? I can only guess that they were more temperate. 

I don't say DA:I deserves all the hate it gets (it does not IMO) but there is something to think of. Storyline and gameplay aside, which are quite subjective, bugs and PC controls are the most mentioned issues I've seen and those are the same for all players. One thing I always loved about Bioware games is that they were very well polished and you rarely encountered, like, any bugs. They are not like Bethesda games where it's wiser to wait for 6 official and unofficial patches to have a similar experience. Sadly, this trend seems to lose its positions to the open world aspect. It's simple, the more content you have to explore and experience, the harder it is to catch and squeeze all the bugs in the game. 

ME2 got hated on as well. But no where near as much as ME3. ME2 got less criticism than it deserved, but it still received it's share. 

 

 

 

Blindly hating on the newest game is the cool thing to do nowadays.

[Seishoujyo]

i, Exploration(the good): Probably one of the best things about Dragon Age Inquisition is its exploration. I spent dozen of hours just walking around, discovering things and slaughtering things that moved. I'd say there were two reasons for that: One the environments were utterly beautiful and varied. I can't wait to see the glory of space coming alive in the next Mass Effect. Inquisition showed how the Frostbyte engine can create amazing scenery. And two: there were interesting things to do, more on that in a moment.
 

 

Can't agree more on this, I think the exploration in DAI is freaking amazing I LOVE IT, so many different environments, by night with stars, by night with fog/rain, rain forest, desert, canyons, tempest etc etc, Bioware did a tremendous job on the art and the graphics (god bless the frosbite engine), it's always a lot of fun to free roam killing the monsters or red templars and looking at the scenary.

 

I m expecting the same thing from Mass Effect and even more because Sci Fi allows more freedom.

 

As for the codex it's part of the game it should stay the way it is.

 

The most important thing that ME:Next should learn from DA:I and ME3 is :

 

No more lackluster finale please. Dont ask us to amass an army, upgrade things, recruit agents etc only to find out that they have little to no impact come end game. 

 

Well it's was the same case with ME3, but whatever let's call this role play.

 

If i had anything to say at BW, I'd make the devs play Fallout3/New Vegas extensively and let a good SF writer do the high level storyline.

 

Lol hell no you re crazy man, Fallout 3 has the worst story I have ever seen in an RPG, boring, stupid and not epic at all, running after your father for some water... great. New Vegas was better of course because it was Obsidian and they know how to write good stories.

 

Don't listen to him Bioware please you are 1000 times better than Bethesda at writing so do your own stuff, I have faith in Mac Walters and all the team to come up with something really good.

[JeffZero]

I wouldn't worry too much about BioWare employees deciding an arbitrary comment on a message board -- even this one -- about who should be hired in their company for a very high-end job which has already been filled should be heeded posthaste.

 

 

It's off topic but I think it's worth saying. The DAI forum made me feel sorry for the developers of the game. I mean, I don't want everyone to just shout praises and love the game, it's only natural that there will be people who dislike it and wanted something else. But the thing is: it's extremely easy to see the amount of work that was put into the game and I believe that should buy some respect from the fans. But many people seem to be more interested in just coming here to say how terrible they think it is and keep saying it everywhere everytime like they want to punish the devs. 

It's good then that everywhere else DAI is getting the reception it deserves. 

 

Agreed. I have my issues with it but it's very much an 8.5 for me. Which is to say great. Some of the posts here would suggest a flat zero, by comparison. I've seen so many other places -- and people at my campus! -- rant and rave about it, though. I think there are more people who'd peg it higher than me, at like, a 9, than there are folks who genuinely dislike it. 

 

If that's not a return to form after DA2's overall reception then I don't know what is.

 

And regardless, you're absolutely right. A lot of labor went into DAI. A lot of love.

[Mcfly616]

Also, I need to play Halo 4 eventually to see how well written it was. Just to point out, the high-level scenario is not the same thing as the actual writing. For all we know, this guy (can't remember his name) was given instructions on what the plot would be, and he simply had to create how it worked in the game. He might not be to blame for the Halsey mess (that's Karen's fault).

Who knows what exactly he was responsible for...

 

 

 

However, I would imagine he had a good amount of say on how the main narrative would be presented. Which was probably the worst part about Halo 4's otherwise damn fine campaign. Many fellow Halo fans like to praise the subplot between Chief and Cortana (which was pretty decent writing, albeit forced). But that wasn't the "high level scenario" of the game. I'd go as far as saying that the main narrative of Halo 4 was some of the worst writing in the franchise since Halo 2. 

 

 

I guess I just hope the next Mass Effect doesn't get the same treatment: decent romantic subplots being the lone bright spot within a mess of a main plot, lacking context in every facet.

[wolfhowwl]

Don't create areas beyond your ability to fill them with compelling content.

[Henriks]

i, Exploration(the good): Probably one of the best things about Dragon Age Inquisition is its exploration. I spent dozen of hours just walking around, discovering things and slaughtering things that moved. I'd say there were two reasons for that: One the environments were utterly beautiful and varied. I can't wait to see the glory of space coming alive in the next Mass Effect. Inquisition showed how the Frostbyte engine can create amazing scenery. And two: there were interesting things to do, more on that in a moment.

ii. Exploration (the bad): As amazing as it was to explore in Dragon Age it had a negative consequence: how it make the main story feel disconnected. I'm hardly the first and certainly won't be the last to bring up the problem of a narrative driven game in a open world frame, but it's a challenge the next Mass Effect will have to tackle, and if anything Dragon Age showed how it won't work. 



 

 

The problems in DA: I story are no related to the exploration. Inquisition is not even an open world game, its just like Origins, you have some large areas to explore, some areas are only available in specific missions, others ere there the entire game. The difference between Inquisition and Origins is the scale.

Elders Scrolls III: Morrowind, had a really amazing story, and the fact it was set in a open world island was what made it that amazing. Even Skyrim had some nice stories, like the Civil War, even the main quest, or smaller ones, like that one where your character became a werewolf. 

 

What makes Bioware games so unique are the characters. You won't find that kind of characters in an Elder Scrolls game, but thats more related to the lack of development through the game (when you first met a character, you get a couple of dialogue options, and thats it, for the nest 50 hours of gameplay, not matter what happens in the game, you are always getting the same dialogue options, few exceptions aside, you never get to know what that guy think about some of you actions).

 

In Inquisition characters lacked development. Personal quests had little importance to the main quest, and only few playable characters seemed really connected to what was happening in the main quest: Solas, Cassandra and Varric. Leliana, Morrigan, Cullen and Josephine were also really connected to the events, but since they were not playable, I think the game suffered a bit in terms of story. 

To be honest, some characters had nothing to do with what the Inquisition was about. It was really hard to understand why those guys were fighting at your side: Iron Bull, BlackWall, Sera, Dorian, Cole, Vivienne. I think the situation was even worst with Cole and Sera. Both were there because Bioware decided it was cool to play alongside a freak and a spirit/demon, but they are completely out of place there.

I will never understand why with those 13 main characters, their personal quests were so poor. Instead of letting you fight random bandits and bears in order to develop your character, it would have been a better idea to improve the personal quests. It was really unbelievable some of those personal quests lasted for no more than 5 minutes...

Who played GTA: V will understand its quite possible to have a solid story in a open world game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If the Mass Effect team is to copy anything from the Dragon Age team, I think it should be race selection. 

[Seishoujyo]

The problems in DA: I story are no related to the exploration. Inquisition is not even an open world game, its just like Origins, you have some large areas to explore, some areas are only available in specific missions, others ere there the entire game. The difference between Inquisition and Origins is the scale.

Elders Scrolls III: Morrowind, had a really amazing story, and the fact it was set in a open world island was what made it that amazing. Even Skyrim had some nice stories, like the Civil War, even the main quest, or smaller ones, like that one where your character became a werewolf. 

 

What makes Bioware games so unique are the characters. You won't find that kind of characters in an Elder Scrolls game, but thats more related to the lack of development through the game (when you first met a character, you get a couple of dialogue options, and thats it, for the nest 50 hours of gameplay, not matter what happens in the game, you are always getting the same dialogue options, few exceptions aside, you never get to know what that guy think about some of you actions).

 

In Inquisition characters lacked development. Personal quests had little importance to the main quest, and only few playable characters seemed really connected to what was happening in the main quest: Solas, Cassandra and Varric. Leliana, Morrigan, Cullen and Josephine were also really connected to the events, but since they were not playable, I think the game suffered a bit in terms of story. 

To be honest, some characters had nothing to do with what the Inquisition was about. It was really hard to understand why those guys were fighting at your side: Iron Bull, BlackWall, Sera, Dorian, Cole, Vivienne. I think the situation was even worst with Cole and Sera. Both were there because Bioware decided it was cool to play alongside a freak and a spirit/demon, but they are completely out of place there.

I will never understand why with those 13 main characters, their personal quests were so poor. Instead of letting you fight random bandits and bears in order to develop your character, it would have been a better idea to improve the personal quests. It was really unbelievable some of those personal quests lasted for no more than 5 minutes...

Who played GTA: V will understand its quite possible to have a solid story in a open world game.

 

It was always a huge problem with Bioware's game, half of the characters are here just for the sake of being here and are useless to the plot. Look at Mass Effect 1 you don't need Tali or even Garrus to the story they are useless same goes in Mass Effect 3 for Tali, Garrus, James only Ashley, Liara and Javik are important to the plot. Mass Effect 2 I don't have it's different and weird, most of the characters are not that important to the plot but you need them for the suicide mission.

 

And I think this problem is even worse in Final Fantasy games where you have maybe 2 or 3 important characters. The only RPG I have ever played where all the characters are all important to the story is Persona and Atlus did a wonderful job on this.

 

I wish Bioware would be better on this.

 

Maybe the greatest idea would be to only have 6 characters in your party but fully invested in the story and with a lot of content a quests for each of them.