50 réponses à ce sujet

[tbxvividos]

The only people who think an endgame AW is dramatically more powerful than every other class are people who are bad at other classes and/or aren't actually at endgame.

I'd rather have a good keeper or ele on my team.
or even a good necro.

[Vorna]

'Tis a rare thing to get me to post commentary on these boards, especially about balance, but this silly fervor over the OPness of the AW is grating on me... and honestly based a lot on a lack of understanding.
 
Firstly, the AW is a tank. If he wasn't a tank, he'd be a poor dps with POTA for a little bit of group friendliness (that is actually outclassed by the proc version of the spell as it happens so much faster). I won't get into a rant about how most of the people asking for nerfs are asking for things that will break the class (and the way BW nerfs, it will break the class and we'll likely never see it rise out of Katari levels again), and I won't... wait, I will. IF you want nerfs, ask for damage to be lowered... while raising barrier generation to be in line with what it currently is. Taking away his tankness will just make him damn near useless and make the ele and necro (with their actually op death siphon) better tanks.
 
 

So guys, two days ago I finally got enough cloth to craft the AW armor. But now I am feeling a bit guilty. At lvl 4 and onward I was getting top of the leaderboard almost every game, even against lvl 15-20´s of legionaires, archers and kataris.

Really? You thought you wouldn't outscore the class that when doing well should be generating no score (I'll explain in a moment) and the worst class in game? Along with a class that can't generate support xp (easily at least).
 

One game I got over 8000 points, with the rest of my team getting less than 2500. I haven´t even unlocked Pull of the Abyss yet.

See, this score stuff being important to some players is rather funny, seeing as how lopsided score generation is. Now granted, maybe I'm missing some grand important information on how score is generated, but as far as I have deciphered, it's based on xp generation. So why is the AW scoring so high? One of the best ways to generate support xp is barrier. So every time your barrier is damaged, you're getting support xp. The AW is generating kill xp and support xp at the same time as a tank, and a fair amount of it, because barrier doesn't take armor into account, so that barrier is soaking up a LOT of damage.

Now let's compare this to the king of tanks, the Leg. He on the other hand, when played best, is taking almost NO damage. He's using Fortress and Counterstrike and blocking. And as far as I can tell, from this, he gets 0 xp. So the reason why that AW is taking top spot and the Leg is bottoming out, even though that Leg facetanked Kain... I mean the Red Templar Commander and a bunch of his archers without missing a beat and barely taking any damage... to HIS GUARD- is because that awesome Leg couldn't generate any xp for all his awesomeness.
 
Anyway... why do I see so many "NERF AW!" posts and zip on Death Siphon? Do the newbs just not spec it or something? They don't know? Everyone's packing heal on kill rings except me? (stahp giving me flanking rings plz rng)

[diagorias]

Except that with death siphon, you still die in one shot, AW on the other hand can just run in PotA, fadecloak in, spam spirit blade and is practically invulnerable, he doesn't even have to be careful for elites or bosses. AW is OP, I don't see how anyone can waylay that. If he is indeed meant as a tank, then big changes are need against his fadecloak and spirit blade damage, if he is meant as a DPS, there are big changes needed against the barrier generation. He can just face any enemy and just come out unscathed, boss or no boss. Aside of that he does also an extreme amount of damage with the combination of 3 skills (PotA, FC, SB). Single target damage is only lower than any rogue, if that rogue has no problems while flanking. I would lower either of them (DMG or barrier generation) and things become more balanced.

 

On the calls for calling nerfs in PvE unnecessary: for AW it's totally unnecessary to use the smallest amount of teamwork, that is not what the multiplayer is about, so yea, there are nerfs needed, unfortunately. It is indeed for some people possible to solo perilous on other classes, but that is pretty rare and needs good gear and quite a few promotions.

[Storm_Changer]

Yet the AW doesn´t even need POTA. Like I said, I don´t even have it. He might be more powerful WITH it, but it is nowhere near mandatory to be OP as hell.

Disagree entirely. I have played him both with and without, he is not 'OP as hell' even with POTA, he is simply strong. Almost any class can solo, a user on the board has actually been posting plenty of class solo's for threatening. You may want to watch them. 

 

I mean no offense, but you clearly don't play perilous difficulty. 

 

Considering you're what, level 9 with AW? And you're comparing it to legionnaire, a class you're only level 12 with? Again I mean no offense, but you aren't qualified to make the statements you've made from a sample size smaller than 10 games with both classes on the easier difficulties. You aren't even qualified to comment on POTA, as you yourself admit that you haven't even played with the skill. 

 

Can AW be used without POTA? Yes. So by that definition he doesn't "need" it. But no skill is mandatory on any build, yet some skills are objectively more useful than others. Some are TOO good, such as POTA on a class that relies on AOE damage for heavy sustain. 

 

Your point is based off a weak anecdote on a flawed scoring system that you can very easily skew in your favour [as I and many other users do when we feel like hyper-carrying a game on threatening.] But you can do that with pretty much any class, hell I do it with Archer daily. And Archer certainly isn't OP. 

 

I agree he is perhaps too strong, that would be remedied by moving POTA onto a more appropriate class. You do not balance the game around the easy difficulties, you balance it around the hardest. And right now the thing that makes AW too potent in perilous is his hard-cc that puts enemies in one place so we can generate shield faster than he loses it. The easiest solution? Remove the CC that by all rights he shouldn't have in the first instance. 

 

As any user who has experienced the POTA bug will tell you, when enemies are dispersed on perilous as an AW it's pretty much a death sentence. Classes like legionnaire can gain immunity in said situations. AW has no such luck. As AW relies on one of two escapes [frost step / cloak] to provide his damage rather than escape, it often means if he gets stuck with dispersed enemies he'll die. 

[Storm_Changer]

Except that with death siphon, you still die in one shot, AW on the other hand can just run in PotA, fadecloak in, spam spirit blade and is practically invulnerable, he doesn't even have to be careful for elites or bosses. AW is OP, I don't see how anyone can waylay that. If he is indeed meant as a tank, then big changes are need against his fadecloak and spirit blade damage, if he is meant as a DPS, there are big changes needed against the barrier generation. He can just face any enemy and just come out unscathed, boss or no boss. Aside of that he does also an extreme amount of damage with the combination of 3 skills (PotA, FC, SB). Single target damage is only lower than any rogue, if that rogue has no problems while flanking. I would lower either of them (DMG or barrier generation) and things become more balanced.

 

On the calls for calling nerfs in PvE unnecessary: for AW it's totally unnecessary to use the smallest amount of teamwork, that is not what the multiplayer is about, so yea, there are nerfs needed, unfortunately. It is indeed for some people possible to solo perilous on other classes, but that is pretty rare and needs good gear and quite a few promotions.

If he's meant to be a tank and his tankiness relies on his DPS then it would be foolish to nerf his DPS to make him more tanky - that would have the opposite affect. 

 

I'll be honest with you, I don't often see AW use fade cloak. Most use Frost step as it has more utility. So you appealing to one of the highest damage % skills in the game, that is not universally picked up anyway, is abit odd. Frost Step is a meagre 300% damage by contrast, but it has more utility. Also bare in mind the 100% weapon damage is based on a STAFF, that have the lowest weapon damage in the game by a significant margin, if I'm not mistaken. 1000% of a bow/sword daggers weapon damage would be alot more than 1000% of a Staff. 

 

Removing POTA from AW and giving it to Keeper or another class would force AW to team play. His barrier generation and damage aren't concerns, because they're small-scale AOE sustained damage for the most part, which is slightly more potent than say an ele or necro [because both classes cover wider areas.] 

 

AW cannot go toe-to-toe with any mini-boss or high single-target damage enemy in Perilous without dying, even now. He is by no means some all-powerful class, and in most instances on Perilous you're better picking a class that brings more to the TEAM. By all means he's a good hyper-carry on threatening and below, but that's not saying much when every class can hyper-carry at those levels. 

[Cavemandiary]

Looks like I´ve stepped into a beehive. Good.

[Cavemandiary]

I'll be honest with you, I don't often see AW use fade cloak. Most use Frost step as it has more utility. So you appealing to one of the highest damage % skills in the game, that is not universally picked up anyway, is abit odd. Frost Step is a meagre 300% damage by contrast, but it has more utility. Also bare in mind the 100% weapon damage is based on a STAFF, that have the lowest weapon damage in the game by a significant margin, if I'm not mistaken. 1000% of a bow/sword daggers weapon damage would be alot more than 1000% of a Staff. 
  
.... 
AW cannot go toe-to-toe with any mini-boss or high single-target damage enemy in Perilous without dying, even now. He is by no means some all-powerful class, and in most instances on Perilous you're better picking a class that brings more to the TEAM. By all means he's a good hyper-carry on threatening and below, but that's not saying much when every class can hyper-carry at those levels.

Well, implying that the AW can go toe-to-toe on perilous also implies the use of fadecloak. Otherwise, he obviously can´t.

I won´t enter into any debate on whether AW generally use FC though. I do, as I have found it leaps and bounds better than anything else, just as I find fadestep to be better than POTA. Each to his own I guess.

[DxWill103]

While I do feel he needs to be toned down, I'm having trouble forming an opinion on what specifically he needs.  The self synergy he has is what's most impressive about the class in my opinion.  How to balance a class without removing that synergy?  Or do you tone down the synergy leaving the numbers in tact?  I have no experience when it comes to balancing sadly.

 

At any rate, I noticed that, while playing Knight-Enchanter in Single player, I could spam the fade cloak spirit blade combo endlessly, but the mana regen was just barely enough to sustain it for the most part, preventing me from using anything else while I was doing this.  While still quite powerful, it essentially forced me to choose between spamming this combo, or stopping and staff AAing to regain some mana to use other spells.

 

The arcane warrior doesn't really have this issue from what I can tell.  Because he has access to restorative veil, I've noticed that, in addition to my fade cloak+spirit blade, I can additionally throw in chain lightning (or stonefist or what have you) as well, all thrown at mobs pulled together from PoTA, making his barrier regen quite incredible.  Whereas a Knight-Enchanter is limited to only fade cloak+spirit blade and nothing else while doing this for the most part (without lyrium potion, etc) the Arcane warrior has access to some insane mana regen, negating the forced choice of spamming the combo, or saving mana for other spells like the knight-enchanter must. 

 

This is just my personal observations I feel like sharing with the community.  I'm not even sure nerfing the mana regen would be an adequate balancing decision or not, just kind of 'talking out loud' here.  Maybe just reduced spirit blade damage?  It gets blocked more often than not, but it doesn't matter much when your fade cloak is about to pop, knocking enemies down anyway.  I've seen some interesting balance suggestions on these forums that certainly seem ideal, but ultimately, I have absolutely no idea what the best way to go about balancing this guy would be.  While I do think currently he needs to be toned down a bit, I'd hate to see him over nerfed, as he's really he's a godsend when it comes to playing pug matches, which I normally do :/

[J. Peterman]

NERF THE AW!!!!

[ChaosBlades]

*Gets as many games in as possible on level 20 AW before it gets over nerfed because of this thread*

 

Seriously, all the other classes feel like they play in slow motion compared to AW. If anything needs nerfed it is the Demon Commander. I know the trick to beating him but he is just no fun.

[Shinnyshin]

The only people who think an endgame AW is dramatically more powerful than every other class are people who are bad at other classes and/or aren't actually at endgame.
I'd rather have a good keeper or ele on my team.
or even a good necro.

Half agree. I find the AW's ability to do all the other roles' jobs is massively overstated. He can't be an Ele or Legionnaire or Hunter. But he's really, really nice as a flex pick to shore up an already solid team. PotA makes other peoples' jobs so much easier and has some ridiculous synergy with most every kit. And he's self sufficient enough that he doesn't require any assistance from anyone, which again makes everybody's life easier. His kit feels a bit too strong...but not because it renders other classes irrelevant. At least, not above Threatening.

To make a possibly inaccurate comparison, AW reminds me of that weird time Bards were pretty OP and FotM in D&D. They didn't outclass people in their roles...but they brought a bit too much bang for the buck in too many fields and multiplied the potential of a group something fierce.

[diagorias]

AW cannot go toe-to-toe with any mini-boss or high single-target damage enemy in Perilous without dying, even now. He is by no means some all-powerful class, and in most instances on Perilous you're better picking a class that brings more to the TEAM. By all means he's a good hyper-carry on threatening and below, but that's not saying much when every class can hyper-carry at those levels. 

He can go toe-to-toe with any mini-boss, and when there are adds, he can also go toe-to-toe with bosses. If he uses PotA to draw all the enemies to the boss, FC in while spamming SB he easily keeps his barrier up. Also I don't see how you cannot have both FC ánd frost step, I usually do. I don't have chain lightning, because I can use PotA. froststep and FC to immediately blow up most, if not all, of the archers. With the Revenant, you use FC when he does the slashing attack, for the rest just spam SB. For the Arcane Horror, FC when uses his turreting attack and SB otherwise, although if you tank him it's easier to use your ranged attack, since he doesn't teleport then. Basically for any elite you spam SB until he uses a heavy attack then you simply fade with FC and run into him. Bosses are a different story due to their longer attacks, teleports and just plain annoyance of the DC, but by using both FC and frost step, you won't be in much trouble there either.

 

Aside from all that, the damage could be nerfed in such a way that the barrier generation stays the same, for example by reducing the damage and increasing the barrier generation per damage done. Taking away PotA is also an option, this would make it definitely harder for the AW to solo and makes him more team reliant.

[Storm_Changer]

Well, implying that the AW can go toe-to-toe on perilous also implies the use of fadecloak. Otherwise, he obviously can´t.

I won´t enter into any debate on whether AW generally use FC though. I do, as I have found it leaps and bounds better than anything else, just as I find fadestep to be better than POTA. Each to his own I guess.

So without a specific skill pick that is somewhat contested he can't go toe-to-toe on perilous. That would imply he isn't broken at all and that he simply relies on picking the right skills like any other class in the game to fit a play style. I think you and others grossly overstate the importance of fade cloak. It doesn't actually work as an invulnerability, it's only 2 seconds and the 1000% damage parameter on a staff makes it underwhelming, even with the best staffs. 

 

Compare it to an archer that can do 600% damage through multiple enemies with much less setup. 600% from a bow is almost always more than 1000% from a staff. It's simply one way the AW can get abit of burst damage, which he sorely lacks aside from that single skill that not everyone picks. 

 

Moreover using fade cloak offensively then removes any escape plans you may have had. If enemies are dispersed, that is a death warrant as you cannot acquire enough shield from one normal enemy to out-sustain multiple ranged attacks on perilous, or even threatening most of the time. 

 

Every skill bar POTA has a significant drawback. Which is why the only skill that it's appropriate to be looking at is POTA. Even then, AW is no where near as potent in perilous as he is in threatening, for team composition your so much better picking a keeper or elementalist over him. He's top-tier as a solo pick, but that actually works against him in perilous difficulty. 

[Storm_Changer]

He can go toe-to-toe with any mini-boss, and when there are adds, he can also go toe-to-toe with bosses. If he uses PotA to draw all the enemies to the boss, FC in while spamming SB he easily keeps his barrier up. Also I don't see how you cannot have both FC ánd frost step, I usually do. I don't have chain lightning, because I can use PotA. froststep and FC to immediately blow up most, if not all, of the archers. With the Revenant, you use FC when he does the slashing attack, for the rest just spam SB. For the Arcane Horror, FC when uses his turreting attack and SB otherwise, although if you tank him it's easier to use your ranged attack, since he doesn't teleport then. Basically for any elite you spam SB until he uses a heavy attack then you simply fade with FC and run into him. Bosses are a different story due to their longer attacks, teleports and just plain annoyance of the DC, but by using both FC and frost step, you won't be in much trouble there either.

 

Aside from all that, the damage could be nerfed in such a way that the barrier generation stays the same, for example by reducing the damage and increasing the barrier generation per damage done. Taking away PotA is also an option, this would make it definitely harder for the AW to solo and makes him more team reliant.

Strangely the mini bosses aren't actually the high dps enemies. Most of the time stalkers and archers do way more damage with much higher burst, which is what AW is vulnerable to. I don't pick FC and FS, just FS. CL allows me to engage without POTA up, it also allows me to sustain barrier with enemies spread, so I find it much more useful than 1000% damage on my staff [which is a pretty bad staff, 91 DPS and around 60-70 weapon dmg.] 

 

I don't see the necessity for nerfing his damage when simply removing POTA from him and giving it to Keeper forces the AW to work as a team. Right now the reason hes seen as OP is because he can run off and clear a floor [not on perilous most of the time, but on threatening] without any aid and without incredible gear. Removing POTA forces team play and remedies that issue, whilst also giving the Keeper a replacement for disruption shield, to keep them competitive with ele. 

[TurianRebels]

In single player, Spirit Blade took a few seconds.  My Viv couldn't spam it.

 

Oh, but don't give POTA to keeper. She has static cage.

 

What if SB cost 30 mana? 50 mana?

[Cuthlan]

If he had to be nerfed, removing POTA would be a more difficult nerf than just adjusting numbers, but its probably the best solution. Anything else could fundamentally change the way the spirit blade works for the AW and potentially destroy the class.

 

Although I still don't think it really needs nerfed. It's the Human Vanguard of DAMP; entry-level "awesome". But not the ONLY "awesome"

[Storm_Changer]

 

 

Oh, but don't give POTA to keeper. She has static cage.

Giving it to any other mage type would make them far too potent, as Ele/Necro already have AOE skills that synergize incredibly. 

 

Keeper is more of a support role that can't capitalize on AOE damage easily, so it makes sense for her to get POTA. Especially considering the fact that disruption field is largely useless now. 

[Rhaine]

Perilous is very likely not ment to be soloable and arcane warrior is  the only class that can do it.

 

So with that information in hand people still saying nono its fine? seems some people are just in denial.

 

Ive played arcane warrior a lot lately and its a vastly stronger class than pretty much all others, people saying it isnt are those that always play OP classes and always whine that they aint.

[Storm_Changer]

Perilous is very likely not ment to be soloable and arcane warrior is  the only class that can do it.

 

So with that information in hand people still saying nono its fine? seems some people are just in denial.

 

Ive played arcane warrior a lot lately and its a vastly stronger class than pretty much all others, people saying it isnt are those that always play OP classes and always whine that they aint.

without POTA it wouldn't be possible, although I doubt its possible/efficient to do anyway, even with maximized gear. In the same regard, very few people have the best gear and inclination to test this stuff, I wouldn't be at all surprised if keepers, eles, necros and legionnaires could also solo perilous. 

 

I've played AW alot too, it isn't vastly stronger in perilous, which is the mode I play alot. n threatening hes great, but tbqh my archer tears stuff up just as fast, so does my reaver. 

[tbxvividos]

Perilous is very likely not ment to be soloable and arcane warrior is the only class that can do it.

Challenge accepted

[Hurkaleez]

I have both a legionaire and an assassin, and AW feels like he tanks better than the legio, and does more damage than the assassin at the same time(except in 1on1). I moved to threatening at lvl 12 with my legio, but I moved to perilous at lvl 9 with my AW and I am STILL having an easier time with my AW, even though my legio has a better weapon. It could just be that I suck with the legio, but judging by other peoples experiences, I am not completely wrong here.

My suggestion? Lower the damage output of spiritblade down to 300% and remove the barrier/guard bonus damage, reduce the barrierleech to 20% and increase the CD on fadecloak to 15 seconds.

I think before offering up your advice, you should learn to play Legionaire and Assassin first. Get good with them, then compare. If you play with a good Legionaire you will see. Also, play Perilous with good players playing these classes and get back to me. Balance should be geared toward end-game(right now Perilous) and taking advice from Routine or Threatening players on what is 'balanced' makes no sense.

[Tielis]

I've noticed since I started playing my Arcane Warrior, that people will leave the lobby as soon as I join.    So sad.

 

I'm only playing him since I can't romance Abelas in the single player game, honest.    (Well, that and because I'm an ancient elf lore fanatic.)

[mission555]

Speaking of dumb, Staff of the Void on AW, forget about Fade Step, bring back the lightning that's how many hits to proc the passive?

 

Passive: 10% chance of walking fortress for two seconds on hit (damage immunity). 

[Shinnyshin]

Perilous is very likely not ment to be soloable and arcane warrior is  the only class that can do it.

Legionnaire can against any faction--or at least he could before the stealth nerf from the patch.  Probably a lot harder now.  Elementalist probably could if he played scared all day and didn't get demons (Terror chain-CC pls).  A Fade Step/Fade Cloak Necro probably could as well.

[veramis]

I've noticed since I started playing my Arcane Warrior, that people will leave the lobby as soon as I join.    So sad.

 

I'm only playing him since I can't romance Abelas in the single player game, honest.    (Well, that and because I'm an ancient elf lore fanatic.)

 

Probably just coincidence. AW is op, sure, but its a game about getting gold and people are happy to have as many good teammates as possible unless you are getting 90% of kills and they have absolutely nothing to do .