65 réponses à ce sujet

[Telmorial]

This game is almost a masterpiece, almost. But there is one glaring problem with the game and that is the limit of 8 ability slots.

 

One of the aspects of great game design for the Dragon Age games (and many of the classic RPG's before) is allowing us to come up with interesting and diverse builds. But by limiting PC and console players to only be able to use 8 active abilities in combat, the number of builds we can come up with are severely limited. This in turn limits the tactical options we can use while in combat. Which I don't think anyone would really want, would they?

 

And yes, I know we can change abilities before combat but that doesn't help. There are still plenty builds which can make use of more than 8 abilities in 1 combat situation.

 

This is not a PC vs console issue. They can easily add a feature to the console UI to allow players to select more than 8 abilities, just like they did in the previous Dragon Age games.

 

It is such an issue for me (and from reading other posts such as this one and this one, it seems many agree with me) that I had to stop my Mage play through and restart the game as a Warrior. I know I'll still run into the problem as a Warrior but it won't be quite as bad as the Mage.

 

One example:

Let's say I want to come up with a highly mobile Warrior Reaver.

Now the fundamental abilities for the Reaver are;

1. Ring of Pain

2. Dragon Rage

3. Devour

4. Rampage

 

Now as I want my style of playing to be highly mobile, I want to choose;

5. Charging Bull

6. Grappling Chain

 

Alright, I know I can't get loads of defensive abilities but I at least need something to build guard;

7. War Cry.

 

Oh, I'll probably have a 2H weapon as a Reaver, so;

8. Mighty Blow

9. And I'd be nuts not to get Whirlwind....

 

So in this example I have to limit my build to fit into the 8 ability limit, so I'd either have to remove Charging Bull or Grappling Chain, which ruins the whole idea of a highly mobile Warrior build concept or remove one of the other abilities which also severely limits my tactical options in combat.

This is just a quick top of my head example, the problem becomes far more obvious for Mage builds.

 

Solution:

Simple, add more slots.

For PC you can simply add a 2nd toolbar which is accessed via a key combo (Shift 1, Shift 2 for example) and/or allow us to key bind abilities.

For consoles just do what you did for the previous DA games, allow them to choose abilities via a radial menu.

 

So come on Bioware, do the right thing and add more ability slots. Don't let this become that 'oh crap!' moment/feeling you must of had after deciding not to implement the Tactical View in Dragon Age 2....

[DaemionMoadrin]

Yes, this is really annoying me as well. I need more ability slots, you can't ask me to choose and change the current 8 around before each battle.

[Telmorial]

Yes, this is really annoying me as well. I need more ability slots, you can't ask me to choose and change the current 8 around before each battle.

 

Thanks for your reply. Yes, this one thing frustrates me every time I play. Such a pity, it's SO close to becoming a truly classic game.

[ghostz82]

I agree 100 percent part of what is great about building builds in RPGs is experiencing them afterwards which we do that by use of the abilties which if you can't use afterwards due to slot limit then it defeats purpose and is just frustrating. There's a reason in mmorpgs the norm is usually 12 slots, you need room/slots for your sustains, buffs, debuffs, heals, barriers, DPS abilties, and what I am trying to point out is just that there's all kind of abilties that you use and need to use in RPGs so a high amount of slots is needed and they could have easily done a 10 to 12 slot UI on for consoles since both Xbox and Sony controller layouts could support it there is enough buttons for sure and for it to work nicely and a still be comfortable with a 12 slot UI even though working pushing it most it can work so therefore I would have gone with a 10 slot UI. Basically right now it's a 8 slots in a layout of two 4 slot wheels with 10 slots it would be two 5 slots wheels instead not hard at all and still leave them room.

[Wulfram]

It barely has any effect within the levels of the main quest.

[DetcelferVisionary]

Limiting skills to me was always meant to streamline combat in MMOs.  Putting everyone on an equal playing field.  Except this is a single player game where none of that matters and creativity of one's build should be a matter of choice.   Assassin builds for example are VERY cookie cutter without having to look it up.  It's literally built right there before you with very little flexibility.  

 

If they had double the skills with more flavor picks instead of clear cut choices and opened up the skill bar (if I wanted it) I would be happier than a clam at high tide.

[In Exile]

DAO didn't have varied builds. It had crap builds and good builds, and the good builds didn't require a lot of abilities so people had the freedom to choose to add some of the crap abilities and play around with them while bored. DAI removed that and I agree doing so made the game less fun. But DAO didn't have real variety.

[Telmorial]

DAO didn't have varied builds. It had crap builds and good builds, and the good builds didn't require a lot of abilities so people had the freedom to choose to add some of the crap abilities and play around with them while bored. DAI removed that and I agree doing so made the game less fun. But DAO didn't have real variety.

 

That might be the case, I can't remember DA:O in detail but did DA:O limit the number of active abilities in combat? Maybe the quality of the builds weren't great in DA:O but that's probably more to do with the quality of the skill trees. In DA:I I think they've done a pretty good job in the skill trees, they've just dumbed down how we can use those skills.

Would you agree having the option of diverse builds is a good thing? What are the disadvantages of allowing people to experiment with interesting builds?

[Jackal19851111]

They just need to add skillbar sets, which would immediately double or triple the abilities available.

[saladinbob]

DAO was limited by the number of slots in your toolbar which was smaller (on the PC) than Inquisition's is and stretched across the entire bottom of the screen. In short, no there wasn't unlimited but there where more slots to use.

[DetcelferVisionary]

DAO didn't have varied builds. It had crap builds and good builds, and the good builds didn't require a lot of abilities so people had the freedom to choose to add some of the crap abilities and play around with them while bored. DAI removed that and I agree doing so made the game less fun. But DAO didn't have real variety.

 

I can only partially agree with this.  I still felt like the option to role play whatever you wanted to be was stronger in DA:O than it was here in DA:I.  Superior builds is something you can't escape from, however not everyone is playing to have a superior build.  Some people just want to be a pyromancer, while others want to be a CC god and take only skills that will help them control the battlefield. 

 

By removing healer for example (not that I'm claiming they need to return it) they're limiting more choice.  Why not have a tree that is about protection and another one that was about healing,  another that was about fire,  ice, lighting and earth?   Who cares if one was stronger than the other - the problem is it's become increasingly difficult to feel like a special snowflake if you so desire.  

 

I really feel that is the heart of this whole topic actually.  Why build limitations to how many skills you can bring in a single player game.  I can understand production costs limiting how many skills you can create and keep balanced and working properly...  but there is no argument that can be made by the lack of skills on a skill bar.  Especially for PC users.  Seems to me they just didn't want to upset the console crowd that maybe...  just maybe PC folks have it better.

[Jackal19851111]

 Seems to me they just didn't want to upset the console crowd that maybe...  just maybe PC folks have it better.

 

If they wanted to appease the console crowd by making the PC version crapper why did they make a video "by PC gamers for PC gamers"?

[Setz]

It barely has any effect within the levels of the main quest.

So many people don't realize that. That build the OP posted would take 15 levels just worth of actives. Not counting his upgrades and his passives. He probably won't get enough levels to even make it a viable build. And if you did, drop war cry. Your dps warrior doesn't need guard. And then drop either mighty blow or whirlwind depending on what the rest of your dps does. You shouldn't be carrying the team in tanking/damage/and debuffing.

[In Exile]

I can only partially agree with this. I still felt like the option to role play whatever you wanted to be was stronger in DA:O than it was here in DA:I. Superior builds is something you can't escape from, however not everyone is playing to have a superior build. Some people just want to be a pyromancer, while others want to be a CC god and take only skills that will help them control the battlefield.

By removing healer for example (not that I'm claiming they need to return it) they're limiting more choice. Why not have a tree that is about protection and another one that was about healing, another that was about fire, ice, lighting and earth? Who cares if one was stronger than the other - the problem is it's become increasingly difficult to feel like a special snowflake if you so desire.

I really feel that is the heart of this whole topic actually. Why build limitations to how many skills you can bring in a single player game. I can understand production costs limiting how many skills you can create and keep balanced and working properly... but there is no argument that can be made by the lack of skills on a skill bar. Especially for PC users. Seems to me they just didn't want to upset the console crowd that maybe... just maybe PC folks have it better.

Don't get me wrong - I support people not building optimally. Lots of ways to build. The issue in DAO was that there were lots of trap abilities with poor documentation and no respec potion. The number of good abilities doesn't vary IMO between DAI and DAO. The difference is that in DAO you could take those mediocre utility abilities and use them in those 1/20 cases they were marginally useful.

In DAI you can't without sacrificing a good ability and thats terrible design. I am 100% against the ability cap. I just disagree that DAO had lots of variation.

[vinak]

It's very easy to come up with 9+ ability builds with normal gameplay. I've managed to adapt my builds to 8 slots but I really don't see why they couldn't figure out how to get 12+ slots for both pc and consoles.

[Telmorial]

So many people don't realize that. That build the OP posted would take 15 levels just worth of actives. Not counting his upgrades and his passives. He probably won't get enough levels to even make it a viable build. And if you did, drop war cry. Your dps warrior doesn't need guard. And then drop either mighty blow or whirlwind depending on what the rest of your dps does. You shouldn't be carrying the team in tanking/damage/and debuffing.

 

That's completely besides the point. If I want to do every side quest before ending the main campaign, that's up to me. I can easily get that example build (and it's much easier for Mages).

 

And regarding my DPS warrior 'doesn't need guard', thanks for your opinion but I completely disagree. If I want to use guard (because, shock, I want to move away from cookie cutter) then I should be able to. You're defending a game mechanic that forces us to dumb down our builds to fit into the 8 slots. Sorry but that doesn't make any sense.

[Jaulen]

I've managed with the 8 ability slots, but MAN.....there are those times when you get into a situation where a particular ability would be GREAT to use, and you can't because it's not one of your 8.......silly to think that warrior/rogue/mage forgot how to do something unless it's been assigned a slot.

[In Exile]

I've managed with the 8 ability slots, but MAN.....there are those times when you get into a situation where a particular ability would be GREAT to use, and you can't because it's not one of your 8.......silly to think that warrior/rogue/mage forgot how to do something unless it's been assigned a slot.

 

No less silly than the stupid Vancian casting system in D&D. Gamplay contrivances are just that. 

[10K]

I would also like to assign skill points once again. Relying on armor for a more powerful build is crazy. I'm a level 20 archer assassin and don't feel as powerful as I did in DA2. I know for a fact that my archer assassin from DA2 would butcher my inquisitor because of how I build her.

[Setz]

That's completely besides the point. If I want to do every side quest before ending the main campaign, that's up to me. I can easily get that example build (and it's much easier for Mages).

 

And regarding my DPS warrior 'doesn't need guard', thanks for your opinion but I completely disagree. If I want to use guard (because, shock, I want to move away from cookie cutter) then I should be able to. You're defending a game mechanic that forces us to dumb down our builds to fit into the 8 slots. Sorry but that doesn't make any sense.

Yeah there's no reason your warrior shouldn't be a dps/tank/debuffer/buffer. You should be able to be every role as one character. Because this games not setup around a 4 person group or anything. If you want to be more defensive, you need to sacrifice offense. If you want to be defensive and offensive you need to sacrifice your ability to buff/debuff. Honestly bioware has a lot more to do right now for the overall majority of people, then to screw around with more quickbar slots because you "prefer" to have that. 

What I'm saying is moving away from cookie cutter doesn't have to = gimping your character. You're wasting a point on taunt for a character that would have no business taunting. You don't have any resistances, any armor buffing skills, and your character isn't even taking an block or dodge skill. So what purpose does taunt have in your build? Your whining about a skill you'd have no real use for. You'd be better off using that point to upgrade or get a passive that helps out more. If you really want to gimp your character by wasting all your skill points on active skills, then that's your choice. Doesn't mean the game should change to fit YOUR playstyle. 

If bioware finds time down the road past the patches and dlc's to add in, good for then. But until that point comes where there isn't more important things to do, it's a non issue.

[Telmorial]

Yeah there's no reason your warrior shouldn't be a dps/tank/debuffer/buffer. You should be able to be every role as one character. Because this games not setup around a 4 person group or anything. If you want to be more defensive, you need to sacrifice offense. If you want to be defensive and offensive you need to sacrifice your ability to buff/debuff. Honestly bioware has a lot more to do right now for the overall majority of people, then to screw around with more quickbar slots because you "prefer" to have that. 

What I'm saying is moving away from cookie cutter doesn't have to = gimping your character. You're wasting a point on taunt for a character that would have no business taunting. You don't have any resistances, any armor buffing skills, and your character isn't even taking an block or dodge skill. So what purpose does taunt have in your build? Your whining about a skill you'd have no real use for. You'd be better off using that point to upgrade or get a passive that helps out more. If you really want to gimp your character by wasting all your skill points on active skills, then that's your choice. Doesn't mean the game should change to fit YOUR playstyle. 

If bioware finds time down the road past the patches and dlc's to add in, good for then. But until that point comes where there isn't more important things to do, it's a non issue.

 

Come on, really. When did I say I want my Warrior to DPS/tank/debuffer/buffer? You're putting blatantly false words into my mouth. All I (and many others) want is build diversity. I'm really sorry if you cannot understand that tried and tested concept.

 

And your other points make no sense either. I wouldn't be wasting "all my points" in active skills, I'd have enough for various passives. And even if I DID want to waste all my points on active skills, with a flexible and diverse build system, it would be up to me to waste them, maybe that odd playstyle works for me (it doesn't, I'm just giving you an example).

 

So, please do contribute to this discussion but at the least please don't make things up.

[Telmorial]

No less silly than the stupid Vancian casting system in D&D. Gamplay contrivances are just that. 

 

Regarding the Vancian casting system, it has been a while since I DnD'ed. Is that the system where you have to memorize spells, they get used up when I cast spell, only to be refreshed when I rest?

[Weltall]

What bugs me about being limited to 8 slots, even more than the lack of options, is that as I build through the skill trees, there are some abilities that NEED to put points in to advance. And while the passive abilities give you stat attributes, the activated abilities don't, so if you don't use them, you're not only not getting to use them in battle, but you're wasting a talent point. And since you don't get stat points separate from your abilities, it's like you're wasting entire levels trying to build a decent character.

[Jaulen]

 

Regarding the Vancian casting system, it has been a while since I DnD'ed. Is that the system where you have to memorize spells, they get used up when I cast spell, only to be refreshed when I rest?

 

I believe so, memorize a spell, forget it when you cast it (which was always weird to me), takes time to rememorize. (just a weird (to me) cool down mechanic....like I'm a geologist.....if I was in the field and used my knowledge to identify a rock....why would i forget what that rock was and have to relearn about it?)

Also a mechanic that was in Baulder's Gate on PC I think.....(reason why I never finished one playthrough...I always forgot to go and 're memorize' a spell/reset something...yeah I suck....found that game to be non-intuitive and clunky.....maybe when I want a mental challenge I'll try again...but age and beer has caused my ability to pay attention to go *poof*)

 

I played Palladium and Cyberpunk.....we sometimes mashed up some DnD into our games.....but didn't play straight DnD rules.

[DetcelferVisionary]

If they wanted to appease the console crowd by making the PC version crapper why did they make a video "by PC gamers for PC gamers"?

 

I thought the answer to this self evident, to win over purchasers.  Clearly one can have better graphics on PC but the UI was not designed with PC users in mind at all.  They've stated so themselves which is why it's supposedly getting worked on.