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Just realized that I don't care if I finish this game or not.


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#226
Spitfire

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99% of the game is just freaking fantastic but it's the 1% of the game that has caused me to shelve the game for almost three weeks. I don't recall a game that I have ever played where so many (little) things have added up to the point where it has so negatively impacted my enjoyment of it.  I know it's just been over a month since release, but I have got to say that I am getting very worried about their post-release support.

 

Perhaps a nice break over the Holidays will reinvigorate Bioware because honestly, if we can't even get a walk/run toggle at this point what chance do we have at all to get some of the control and dreadful ai issues sorted out. I don't want to have to keep on guessing whether or not they will add/fix things in a future patch or if it's going to be just a "all hands on deck for dlc milk machine" approach going forward.

 

I am weary of the lack of communication.

 

Edit:

 

I see the future! I see DA:I in early January 2015!

 

 

giphy.gif

 

 

(Patch 3 would go well with milk Bioware, ehem, kind of like a cookie).



#227
Baerdface

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After 70 hours I realized that I don't care if you finish the game either.


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#228
abearzi

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Agree with this general history, but it still does not change the fact that folks complain in both venues (maybe even the same folks), sometimes to the point of appearing ridiculous. As for Console Commands, the previous games in the DA history were also difficult; personally did not use commands at all in DAO. None of this does not make the Developers anti-modding; nor does it make Bethesda saintly.

But all of this is OT. While I get that there are those that may differ on opinion, it does not make either side correct. That is the nature of subjectivity. However, when opinions are presented to be factual, there would seem to be evidence to support such opinions, and I refute much of what I have seen here.

Fair enough, I was just citing the differences in how EA and Bethesda have gone about addressing modders. 

 

There are various videos and interviews around where Bioware spokespersons have stated that they are not against modding at all, but it is not something they really think about in terms of their designs. If people figure out how to mod the game, then hey, cheers. This is compared to Bethesda who actively encourage the modding community by releasing things like the Creation Kit. 

 

Skyrim is one of my all time favorite games, as is Fallout NV. The base games are ****. Just...ugh. But with modding it is constantly fresh and interesting. However, if a game runs tight and has a very strong narrative (which Bethesda games often are weak at, and the Skyrim MQ is a massive pile of steaming ****), I don't care if I can mod it or not. This, for myself and others in this thread (and forums in general), is one of the reasons why DAI just seems lacklustre; the narrative is not very good, it is buggy (and yes, most games are at release nowadays), and it is not a tightly run ship, so to speak. But there is also no light at the end of the tunnel in the form of amazing mods making up for those deficits. Many people think the narrative is fine, or even fantastic...but for those that don't (which are not an insignificant portion of players) it makes the game feel more a chore than a past-time. Portal and Portal 2 are so far different from what's being discussed here I hesitate to even mention them...but, they do fit the bill for extremely tight gameplay build around one of the best narratives in gaming ever. Those are games which I doubt mods could improve. But big open-world games just scream for mods because they sacrifice a lot of game-play elements to make them big and open and beautiful. And DAI was not build on an engine which is mod friendly, nor are the developers equipping the community with the tools to make it friendly, nor will they (according to statements they have made on the subject).



#229
Owlbear

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Don't get me wrong, it's a lot of fun to do stuff in the sand-box, but the whole point of story is sort of lost after Haven. You aren't pressured into getting rid of the big evil menacing the world as we know it, we have time to save a ram, find a ring for a random woman, you can spend weeks exploring places that have no tie to the story or events (like forbidden oasis or hissing wastes), no matter what you do at winter palace, nothing will change in the world etc.

 

 

This is all true, but it was also true in Origins. It was also true in Baldur's Gate and pretty much every other CRPG ever. There are loads of side quests (generally repetitive in nature and limited in breadth) that you can do that are completely tangential to the main quest. The core storyline constitutes a small part of the overall play time. We are informed that our enemy is on the move and time is of the essence if we want to thwart his diabolical plans, but nothing ever happens due to our inaction or deciding to take time to solve the problems of everyone we run into, however incidental they are to our quest and however illogical it would be for us to waste precious time doing so. All of these tropes have been well-established for a long time, and are present as much or moreso in the games that we hold up as shining examples of how great things used to be.

 

Inasmuch as there is a difference between Inquisition and earlier games, I think it boils down to two things. First, Inquisition itself makes the repetitive and tangential nature of its sidequests plainly obvious due to the way it is constructed and presented. (A simple example: in DAO, most of the repetitive optional side quests were hidden on job boards where you didn't see them if you didn't go looking; in DAI they are all marked on your map, making them hard to ignore. Another is the obvious way in which sidequests are needed to generate the power points required to unlock the next story segment, making their role as speed bumps hard to ignore.) Other games have done a better job of concealing the repetitive nature of the gameplay, irrelevance of much of the content, and reactive nature of the world (meaning the world doesn't do anything except in response to you manipulating it). This is a legitimate weakness in Inquisition: the designers could have done better.

 

Second, as we play more and more of these games, we get better at deconstructing the games: recognizing how they are put together and how they attempt to make us feel as though we are participating in an epic and dynamic story even as we engage in simple, repetitive tasks with fixed outcomes. At the same time, we expect more from current games than we did from their predecessors. So we're left in a position where our expectations keep increasing while at the same time we are increasingly unable to avoid seeing through the illusions that disguise the underlying guts and mechanics. I don't think there's much that the designers could do to avert this, apart from turning out a masterpiece of creative genius, but that sort of thing can't be done on command, no matter the budget or schedule.

 

That said, I think there have been and continue to be improvements in game design, depth and complexity. Not every game is better than its predecessors, but we've come a long, long way from, say, Ultima IV: a game that totally blew me away for its depth and richness when it was released in 1985. I don't think I'll ever be as immersed in another CRPG as I was when I first played it, but I'd reject out of hand any new game with that kind of gameplay, even if I might replay and even enjoy Ultima IV itself for nostalgic reasons.

 

I also want to point out that there is nothing wrong with repetitive gameplay that is convincingly disguised so as to present the illusion of something more complex. CRPGs are illusions to begin with; constructing good illusions is the hallmark of a good designer. Unfortunately, being able to see through illusions is one of the involuntary powers of the experienced gamer.


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#230
Elhanan

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Fair enough, I was just citing the differences in how EA and Bethesda have gone about addressing modders. 
 
There are various videos and interviews around where Bioware spokespersons have stated that they are not against modding at all, but it is not something they really think about in terms of their designs. If people figure out how to mod the game, then hey, cheers. This is compared to Bethesda who actively encourage the modding community by releasing things like the Creation Kit. 
 
Skyrim is one of my all time favorite games, as is Fallout NV. The base games are ****. Just...ugh. But with modding it is constantly fresh and interesting. However, if a game runs tight and has a very strong narrative (which Bethesda games often are weak at, and the Skyrim MQ is a massive pile of steaming ****), I don't care if I can mod it or not. This, for myself and others in this thread (and forums in general), is one of the reasons why DAI just seems lacklustre; the narrative is not very good, it is buggy (and yes, most games are at release nowadays), and it is not a tightly run ship, so to speak. But there is also no light at the end of the tunnel in the form of amazing mods making up for those deficits. Many people think the narrative is fine, or even fantastic...but for those that don't (which are not an insignificant portion of players) it makes the game feel more a chore than a past-time. Portal and Portal 2 are so far different from what's being discussed here I hesitate to even mention them...but, they do fit the bill for extremely tight gameplay build around one of the best narratives in gaming ever. Those are games which I doubt mods could improve. But big open-world games just scream for mods because they sacrifice a lot of game-play elements to make them big and open and beautiful. And DAI was not build on an engine which is mod friendly, nor are the developers equipping the community with the tools to make it friendly, nor will they (according to statements they have made on the subject).


Bioware also has a history with the Modding community, as NWN1 is still seeing frequent additions with the Toolset. Also, Bioware hired some of those Modders, if I recall correctly. But the engines for the following games seemed to have been more complicated, though DAO has seen some entries of worth (eg; Character Respec).

And to be honest, after reading just some of the complaints and insults tossed on the Forums these past few years makes me wonder if this might influence the decisions made for such releases.

#231
Shardik1

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I would guess that they will try to keep modding to a minimum until they have at least released their prepared and planned DLC.  After that, they may send out their own modding kits.



#232
kmansp30

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In the same boat... I restarted after the last patch, and I still just decided its boring and I don't care to finish it.  What a shame.


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#233
Vylix

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Pretty much agree. I can't find much to care about in the story, and the gameplay is mostly tedious. The open world doesn't do anything for the story and instead just dilutes any tension that might have been built up due to every story point being gated by power grinding.

Spoiler


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#234
Elhanan

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In the same boat... I restarted after the last patch, and I still just decided its boring and I don't care to finish it.  What a shame.


And I have somewhere between 220-260+ hrs on my first character, and still have yet to complete the story, or kill a Dragon (delaying while the wildlife still gives me trouble). Am having a blast crafting the take of the Inquisitor; not simply rushing through the Main Quest.

#235
Vylix

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I would guess that they will try to keep modding to a minimum until they have at least released their prepared and planned DLC.  After that, they may send out their own modding kits.

Mod tools are more of an EA thing than a bioware thing. The guys who do the frostbite engine would have to create the tools.

 

That said, the modders are making progress already. http://forum.bioware...9048-dai-tools/



#236
Shardik1

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220-260 hrs without finishing or killing a dragon?  That's like 60 eight hour days of playing the game which to me would be an indicator of how uninteresting the storyline is to you.

 

Changing the curtains and bedding in the keep just isn't all that interesting to me.



#237
Elhanan

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220-260 hrs without finishing or killing a dragon?  That's like 60 eight hour days of playing the game which to me would be an indicator of how uninteresting the storyline is to you.
 
Changing the curtains and bedding in the keep just isn't all that interesting to me.


One should not make assumptions.

The simple answer is that when bears, packs of wolves, swarms of spiders, and other wildlife are causing me trouble, I choose to avoid the Dragons until I am more durable (also playing on Nightmare). And as Cory is concerned, helping the masses restricts his supply chain, as well as his source of Red Lyrium. This strategy seems to be working fairly well thus far.

And I have not altered the Skyhold motif from the original choices yet; the Inquisition materials are fine with the exception of the insignia above the master bedroom. I have no idea what needs chosen to remove that skull logo.

But it would seem to be a somewhat biased conclusion that 250+ hrs spent on a game, let alone the first character would be thought of as 'uninteresting'....

#238
abearzi

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One should not make assumptions.

The simple answer is that when bears, packs of wolves, swarms of spiders, and other wildlife are causing me trouble, I choose to avoid the Dragons until I am more durable (also playing on Nightmare). And as Cory is concerned, helping the masses restricts his supply chain, as well as his source of Red Lyrium. This strategy seems to be working fairly well thus far.

And I have not altered the Skyhold motif from the original choices yet; the Inquisition materials are fine with the exception of the insignia above the master bedroom. I have no idea what needs chosen to remove that skull logo.

But it would seem to be a somewhat biased conclusion that 250+ hrs spent on a game, let alone the first character would be thought of as 'uninteresting'....

How...honestly? I cannot literally conceive of how you have dragged a single playthrough out that long without just standing around for dozens of hours or running around in empty zones you have already cleared.

 

There is simply not enough content to pad that out. In my first (and only) playthrough I collected every shard, did every side quest in every zone, completed every war table operation (excluding the resource gathering) without changing the clock to make them complete instantly, killed every dragon. This was all on Nightmare as well, so the enemies had a goofy amount of HP to chew through. I never skipped cuscenes (unless I had reloaded and had already seen it once uninterrupted) and I don't skip dialogue. That took roughly 90ish hours. I literally cannot imagine how you have dragged one playthrough out for an additional 150+ hours.



#239
Elhanan

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How...honestly? I cannot literally conceive of how you have dragged a single playthrough out that long without just standing around for dozens of hours or running around in empty zones you have already cleared.
 
There is simply not enough content to pad that out. In my first (and only) playthrough I collected every shard, did every side quest in every zone, completed every war table operation (excluding the resource gathering) without changing the clock to make them complete instantly, killed every dragon. This was all on Nightmare as well, so the enemies had a goofy amount of HP to chew through. I never skipped cuscenes (unless I had reloaded and had already seen it once uninterrupted) and I don't skip dialogue. That took roughly 90ish hours. I literally cannot imagine how you have dragged one playthrough out for an additional 150+ hours.


The only areas I have repeated are for harvesting resources such as Elfroot and Blood Lotus. I also use the Pause and Tac-Cam features; my personal choice of combat as I am rather poor at Action mode. I also have not collected all the Shards; only those that are of use currently, as this Inquisitor hesitates to remove all the wards from a tomb; also skipped some sim quests for the same reasons.

In short, I am not you, of which we can both be thankful.
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#240
Shardik1

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You might consider talking to someone outside the gaming community about this.  That is an inordinate amount of time to be spending on a game.  It's unhealthy.



#241
Elhanan

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You might consider talking to someone outside the gaming community about this.  That is an inordinate amount of time to be spending on a game.  It's unhealthy.


If I were doing something outside the home I might agree. But as I am disabled, retired, and no longer drive, gaming serves as a choice of entertainment; also rehab for mental acuity and coordination.
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#242
Shardik1

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All the more reason.  Locking oneself in a fantasy world 24-7 is not that good a thing.

 

I also am retired, disabled and homebound.  Plus I'm an astronaut, a brain surgeon, a theoretical physicist and an award winning novelist when I'm not playing a superhero in an upcoming Marvel film. 



#243
Ashen Nedra

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@shardik1

 

Seriously, do people on forums lie so often that it is always safer to assume one is lying when one refers to one's real life?  Candid question btw, not loaded or anything.  And how do you tell?


Modifié par Ashen nedra, 18 décembre 2014 - 10:17 .


#244
Shardik1

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x



#245
Elhanan

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My brain damage was caused by a stroke in 2011. Am curious as to other's excuses....
 
:rolleyes:
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#246
Switish

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Think the problem for me is that I feel doing side quests and exploring yields no reward, despite being a avid player of MMOs (ironic). I just sit there going...."why do I need to go, cross half the map, get stuck trying to get to the quest area and collect or kill X when I have so many followers or zealots that could simply find X for me without my input other than an order...". 

 

I love other open world games such as Skyrim,but only because I could go "Hey, I think I will be a hunter for the next three hours and sell furs to merchants." or add a mods to create better things that were not in vanilla. And don't get me started on variety of armours available to non humans.To me there is no real reason to venture past the main quest, they should have done a ME3 style system where side quests or exploring certain areas were potentially detrimental as to how your main story could play out (I'm looking at you Tarquin), but then again Im not even sure if that would be a good idea.

 

Feels as if DA:I is attempting to integrate all the things that its predecessors did well, but gets completely overshadowed by a shallow open world that has amazing graphics and a plot that seems to pose no threat.

 


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#247
GavrielKay

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Part of the thrill of doing side quests in other DA games was the loot.  You could find cool stuff, or at least gold to buy cool stuff by doing the side quests and dungeon crawls.  Once you've visited a few areas and gotten some tier 2 or 3 crafting materials, looting is no fun at all.  I sold just about every purple item starting about halfway through.  You can't buy better gear, you can't find it in a chest or on a monster drop.  So, there you are doing the exact same grinding away that you do in every other RPG but with no reward.  All you need to get good gear is the patience to watch the silly animation for grabbing metal/herbs/leather etc.  Getting good gear stopped being about the boss at the end of the level and started being about finding enough wyverns to get enough scales to make whatever you wanted.

 

I don't mind crafting.  But they needed loot to keep up with what you could make.  It needed to level with you or something.


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#248
Shardik1

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Gav...  Yes the loot seems to be lacking.  Was hoping to get some great stuff with dragon or giant kills but it's mostly "meh." 



#249
GavrielKay

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I kept wanting to use the purple stuff that I looted because generally it looks much nicer than the crafed items.  But the stats on the loot are just so much lower than what you can craft that it doesn't make much sense to use it.  Of course, I ended up massively overpowered by the end anyway, so maybe lesser equipment would have given more of a challenge. 

 

In any case, I don't mind the crafting, but I think it needs two improvements:  more variation in the appearance of what you make (beyond different colors in certain places) and loot that rivals the crafting, levelling with the player so that it's a decent alternative especially on unique items.

 

I just remember in DA:O and DA2 getting armor sets and weapons that got fancier and more powerful as you move through the game, but in DA:I even the improvements you get from better crafting materials doesn't provide the same ... thrill?


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#250
Elhanan

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I kept wanting to use the purple stuff that I looted because generally it looks much nicer than the crafed items.  But the stats on the loot are just so much lower than what you can craft that it doesn't make much sense to use it.  Of course, I ended up massively overpowered by the end anyway, so maybe lesser equipment would have given more of a challenge. 
 
In any case, I don't mind the crafting, but I think it needs two improvements:  more variation in the appearance of what you make (beyond different colors in certain places) and loot that rivals the crafting, levelling with the player so that it's a decent alternative especially on unique items.
 
I just remember in DA:O and DA2 getting armor sets and weapons that got fancier and more powerful as you move through the game, but in DA:I even the improvements you get from better crafting materials doesn't provide the same ... thrill?


I am finding some items in loot and shops that are better than current gear, so this might be dependent of Lvl and path chosen. In my case, I was lucky to have such good finds when I chose to scrap my Berserk effect gear.