54 réponses à ce sujet

[tbxvividos]

Barrier is not necessary for tanking dc without shield wall.

It's already been detailed how ANY class can do it, and legionnaires specifically can just face tank him with guard and walking fortress. And payback strike.

[Storm_Changer]

Wanted to chip in and say that I've found shield wall to be useless as a skill, and take payback strike over it every time. With War Cry, Moving Fortress, Counterstrike an Payback strike you're pretty much invulnerable. The additional damage and minor CC can carry you between rotating WC/MF/CS, and with Caliburn it lets you secure kills which is pretty important. 

[Tieflingz]

Barrier is not necessary for tanking dc without shield wall.

It's already been detailed how ANY class can do it, and legionnaires specifically can just face tank him with guard and walking fortress. And payback strike.

Yes, I am well aware that jumping at the right time will avoid any damage from the demon commander's knockup damage. Though I would like to actually see how you face tank him for the whole duration of the fight without actual shield wall to mitigate damage from that move of his.

I have tanked through many demon commanders without barriers or jumping around, though doing so without shield wall is something relatively new for me. I'd like to see how it's done, if you can provide a video for me

[Tieflingz]

Wanted to chip in and say that I've found shield wall to be useless as a skill, and take payback strike over it every time. With War Cry, Moving Fortress, Counterstrike an Payback strike you're pretty much invulnerable. The additional damage and minor CC can carry you between rotating WC/MF/CS, and with Caliburn it lets you secure kills which is pretty important.

I disagree. Shield Wall is far from being a useless skill. It is not as essential as I initially thought, but it's not something to be replaced with lightly. It's the only other ability that mitigates damage on demand. Walking Fortress does a better job at that at the cost of a fraction of the stamina relative to shield wall, but shield wall still fills in nicely in between the cooldowns.

I have done a couple of perilous runs without shield wall. It was refreshing, considering how much kiting I had to do if there are residual mobs left. And I do, in fact, earn more points by being on the offensive more often. It is a far less defensive playstyle and a more aggressive, cooldown dependent playstyle that definitely requires Heal on Kill items to further optimize it.

Can't really suggest this playstyle without anyone to barrier or Arcane Warrior to simply PotR mobs. It is definitely not something to do for pug perilous runs.

[Shinnyshin]

I disagree. Shield Wall is far from being a useless skill. It is not as essential as I initially thought, but it's not something to be replaced with lightly. It's the only other ability that mitigates damage on demand. Walking Fortress does a better job at that at the cost of a fraction of the stamina relative to shield wall, but shield wall still fills in nicely in between the cooldowns.

I have done a couple of perilous runs without shield wall. It was refreshing, considering how much kiting I had to do if there are residual mobs left. And I do, in fact, earn more points by being on the offensive more often. It is a far less defensive playstyle and a more aggressive, cooldown dependent playstyle that definitely requires Heal on Kill items to further optimize it.

Can't really suggest this playstyle without anyone to barrier or Arcane Warrior to simply PotR mobs. It is definitely not something to do for pug perilous runs.

Eh, I run it without Barrier all the time.  It's a lot, lot, lot harder to pull off right now, though, due to the massively bugged armour.  The goal with that playstyle is to do everything within your power to get Walking Fortress/Counterstrike up as often as possible.  Interestingly enough, you often have an easier time against 10 enemies than against 3 because it's much harder to go infinite on Walking Fortress against only a few things, while Shield Wall is much better against a few enemies than a lot.  With this playstyle, I strongly recommend an axe over anything else--maybe even Caliburn--just because of the attack speed.  Also, I don't run my heal on kill ring in favour of two crit rings just because crits are that important.

 

Also, I've definitely tanked Demon Commander without Shield Wall or jumping.  The trick is to grab other enemies with Counterstrike so you have more stuff to get cooldowns off of.

[gay_wardens]

so much "this is the only way to do it" in the forum... makes me sad. I'll be rocking Combat Roll on every single Legionnaire build I make.

[Tieflingz]

Eh, I run it without Barrier all the time.  It's a lot, lot, lot harder to pull off right now, though, due to the massively bugged armour.  The goal with that playstyle is to do everything within your power to get Walking Fortress/Counterstrike up as often as possible.  Interestingly enough, you often have an easier time against 10 enemies than against 3 because it's much harder to go infinite on Walking Fortress against only a few things, while Shield Wall is much better against a few enemies than a lot.  With this playstyle, I strongly recommend an axe over anything else--maybe even Caliburn--just because of the attack speed.  Also, I don't run my heal on kill ring in favour of two crit rings just because crits are that important.

Here's to hoping that BioWare fix that armor bug, Soon ™

Heal on Kill ring makes it a lot safer, though having more crit always helps.

Also, I've definitely tanked Demon Commander without Shield Wall or jumping.  The trick is to grab other enemies with Counterstrike so you have more stuff to get cooldowns off of.

I suppose that also means the DC needs to be focused down instead of being left for last seeing as there won't be an infinite amount of mobs for our legionnaires to hit on. I have gotten used to simply facetanking the DC while the rest of the group just focus solely on the minions.
 
 

so much "this is the only way to do it" in the forum... makes me sad. I'll be rocking Combat Roll on every single Legionnaire build I make.

Much to your dismay, many of us here are actually open-minded and finding ourselves trying new stuffs. For a while I have been running with my initial build, but many have offered me even more viable options and styles that I'm having a blast.

Make a case for your combat roll build and we may just... "roll" with it, lest you think of all of us as narrow-minded elitists.

[Beerfish]

Counter strike is the most import skill of the lot.  That is the one skill I was missing and didn't really know about as I have been floundering around and being a horrible Legionnaire.  I'm still not great shakes but am now passable because of that one skill.  It makes a huge difference.  I will have to promote this guy when I get to level 20 and rebuild him more efficiently though.

[gay_wardens]

Combat Roll: breaks demon commander's fear, is effectively an escape button when templar commander uses whirlwind or when your stamina and guard are running out in general, obviously gets rid of status from venatori boss and other mages. Doubles as a means to kill enemies that run past you and try to hurt your teammates.

 

I also like Taunt because of the range, the stamina regen upgrade, and generally because Legionnaire isn't THAT bad at applying DPS and if you're not using Walking Fortress you can run out of guard from taunting everything.

 

I tend to switch between using Shield Wall with Payback Strike for a more versatile tank that bites back, and Counterstrike is usually so good before you get to the 5th room that I hardly need to use shield wall, but I keep it on there because the boss will put the pressure on your guard.

 

Will try the other abilities soon.

[Tieflingz]

Counter strike is the most import skill of the lot.  That is the one skill I was missing and didn't really know about as I have been floundering around and being a horrible Legionnaire.  I'm still not great shakes but am now passable because of that one skill.  It makes a huge difference.  I will have to promote this guy when I get to level 20 and rebuild him more efficiently though.

Shinnyshin has pointed out something important for me, according to this test:
http://www.reddit.co...the_bolt_tests/

Most of the armor boost passives are not working correctly as of now, so stick around, I may have to update the main post soon to accomodate that. After all, what the guide is trying to achieve is to get all the legionnaire players through perilous difficulty without wasting precious skill points.

[Tieflingz]

Combat Roll: breaks demon commander's fear, is effectively an escape button when templar commander uses whirlwind or when your stamina and guard are running out in general, obviously gets rid of status from venatori boss and other mages. Doubles as a means to kill enemies that run past you and try to hurt your teammates.
 
I also like Taunt because of the range, the stamina regen upgrade, and generally because Legionnaire isn't THAT bad at applying DPS and if you're not using Walking Fortress you can run out of guard from taunting everything.
 
I tend to switch between using Shield Wall with Payback Strike for a more versatile tank that bites back, and Counterstrike is usually so good before you get to the 5th room that I hardly need to use shield wall, but I keep it on there because the boss will put the pressure on your guard.
 
Will try the other abilities soon.

Interesting, I never really looked at combat roll seeing that it was a utility spell for positioning. Though It takes 2 skill points to make the best out of combat roll, that extra CC break every 2 seconds can prove useful. Payback Strike along with CD/crit is almost always available whenever I needed it, but maybe I'll give this a try on the next promotion.

[tbxvividos]

Yes, I am well aware that jumping at the right time will avoid any damage from the demon commander's knockup damage. Though I would like to actually see how you face tank him for the whole duration of the fight without actual shield wall to mitigate damage from that move of his.

I have tanked through many demon commanders without barriers or jumping around, though doing so without shield wall is something relatively new for me. I'd like to see how it's done, if you can provide a video for me

There you go

[Tieflingz]

http://youtu.be/S90bCNiAmzM

There you go

That was well done! I'd argue that it's done on Threatening difficulty as opposed to Perilous difficulty where the DC would cause much more damage, still, soloing it on threatening is no small feat.

I will have to give it a try, this actually allows for more possible builds than I first envisioned it.

[tbxvividos]

I could make a group video in perilous but the strategy would be the same.
Imo it's actually harder to solo the fight in threatening than it is to do it in perilous with a group because I'd be taking less damage when you factor things like barriers, elementalist aoes, assassin's 1 shorting ranged, etc.
though solo I do also get more cool down reduction via more hits during walking fortress.
*shrug*
My leg (and most my classes atm) is level 1 currently. Working on getting my cunning up right now.

[Storm_Changer]

I disagree. Shield Wall is far from being a useless skill. It is not as essential as I initially thought, but it's not something to be replaced with lightly. It's the only other ability that mitigates damage on demand. Walking Fortress does a better job at that at the cost of a fraction of the stamina relative to shield wall, but shield wall still fills in nicely in between the cooldowns.

I have done a couple of perilous runs without shield wall. It was refreshing, considering how much kiting I had to do if there are residual mobs left. And I do, in fact, earn more points by being on the offensive more often. It is a far less defensive playstyle and a more aggressive, cooldown dependent playstyle that definitely requires Heal on Kill items to further optimize it.

Can't really suggest this playstyle without anyone to barrier or Arcane Warrior to simply PotR mobs. It is definitely not something to do for pug perilous runs.

Shield Wall converts your entire stamina bar into one stack of armour, it is infinitely less efficient than War Cry / Walking Fortress / Counterstrike, that all usually gain you full armour, additional benefits, don't cost as much stamina and you can do other things whilst using them for armour gen. 

 

You do have to strafe, but I do that anyway on legionnaire because I value having a full stack of armour against the next group of enemies, rather than losing it for no good reason. It's definitely more aggressive, but that DPS you bring means that overall the team take less damage, I'd argue. Shield wall is best in a 1v1 scenario against a weak enemy that can't deplete your stamina fast. But ultimately the time and stamina your wasting would be put to much better use simply knocking down the target with payback strike and killing it. 

[Tieflingz]

Shield Wall converts your entire stamina bar into one stack of armour, it is infinitely less efficient than War Cry / Walking Fortress / Counterstrike, that all usually gain you full armour, additional benefits, don't cost as much stamina and you can do other things whilst using them for armour gen. 
 
You do have to strafe, but I do that anyway on legionnaire because I value having a full stack of armour against the next group of enemies, rather than losing it for no good reason. It's definitely more aggressive, but that DPS you bring means that overall the team take less damage, I'd argue. Shield wall is best in a 1v1 scenario against a weak enemy that can't deplete your stamina fast. But ultimately the time and stamina your wasting would be put to much better use simply knocking down the target with payback strike and killing it.

Shield Wall's usefulness can be extended beyond 1v1 against a weak enemy, the sweet spot is usually right in between 2-4 enemies for perfect stamina regeneration. Shield Wall is not meant to be used in a extended long period of time, but it fills in the small, little gaps. It also allows for more mistakes. Take note that all of this is assuming both Counterstrike and Walking Fortress are on cooldown. I would not replace those two for anything else.

With guard generation being limited at 25% of maximum health, Shield Wall actually mitigates damage, whereas War Cry does not. War Cry is limited by the amount of enemies surrounding the legionnaire as well as its 24 second cooldown timer. Sure, chaining that 20% damage bonus is nice, but with Guard being so weak at the moment, I often find that the guard generated by War Cry is instantly taken out because of the War Cry animation rooting your character, and then comes the forced Unyielding proc. With a strategy so focused on kiting and avoiding damage in general instead of mitigating it, War Cry turns into just as much of a crutch as Shield Wall.

Don't get me wrong, replacing shield wall is actually perfect for threatening difficulty seeing how little damage we take. And part of what this guide is trying to accomplish is to offer the reader a way to optimize legionnaire with most given equipment and group composition in perilous difficulty. I am going to rewrite the specilization section as I have been doing not only perilous runs without shield wall, but also with Lunge and Slash or Combat Roll. Shield wall is still something I don't replace with lightly. I find myself replacing War Cry more often than anything else. And that could really depend on a player's playstyle.

[Rhaine]

Legionnaire  is the only class ive never touched as of yet but after your fantasticly written and very in depth guide i feel compelled to give it a try

[Tieflingz]

Legionnaire  is the only class ive never touched as of yet but after your fantasticly written and very in depth guide i feel compelled to give it a try

I'm glad it's encouraging you to give legionnaires a try, I assure you, it will be quite the experience!

I am still reworking the specialization section, though the basics are still pretty much the same.

[Storm_Changer]

Shield Wall's usefulness can be extended beyond 1v1 against a weak enemy, the sweet spot is usually right in between 2-4 enemies for perfect stamina regeneration. Shield Wall is not meant to be used in a extended long period of time, but it fills in the small, little gaps. It also allows for more mistakes. Take note that all of this is assuming both Counterstrike and Walking Fortress are on cooldown. I would not replace those two for anything else.

With guard generation being limited at 25% of maximum health, Shield Wall actually mitigates damage, whereas War Cry does not. War Cry is limited by the amount of enemies surrounding the legionnaire as well as its 24 second cooldown timer. Sure, chaining that 20% damage bonus is nice, but with Guard being so weak at the moment, I often find that the guard generated by War Cry is instantly taken out because of the War Cry animation rooting your character, and then comes the forced Unyielding proc. With a strategy so focused on kiting and avoiding damage in general instead of mitigating it, War Cry turns into just as much of a crutch as Shield Wall.

Don't get me wrong, replacing shield wall is actually perfect for threatening difficulty seeing how little damage we take. And part of what this guide is trying to accomplish is to offer the reader a way to optimize legionnaire with most given equipment and group composition in perilous difficulty. I am going to rewrite the specilization section as I have been doing not only perilous runs without shield wall, but also with Lunge and Slash or Combat Roll. Shield wall is still something I don't replace with lightly. I find myself replacing War Cry more often than anything else. And that could really depend on a player's playstyle.

 

I do see where your coming from. But I'd have to question in what scenario you end up against 2-4 weak enemies that aren't obliterated quickly in perilous. Shield Wall does block damage [from the front only] but you're doing no damage and losing stamina in that time. I find most often that the gaps between WF/CS/WC get closed quicker if I focus on crit'ing - which is much easier to do safely with payback strike as it has knock down, so you don't need to even dodge vs many enemies. 

 

Add to that the additional DPS it gives you with CS/WF up, and I honestly think it's better. Why prolong fights when you can finish them with your defensive abilities still up? Surely it's better to have *some* DPS for perilous to ensure enemies [which when taunted surround you] die quicker? It simply allows you to contribute more to the team whenever any defensive ability is up, and even when they're on cool down. 

 

Guard isn't the most potent, as you say. Realistically War Cry is best used in tandem with WF / CS [depending on enemy composition] in order to best contribute to the team. But Guard, in combination with healing-on-kill swords like Caliban, helps much more I find. 

 

I genuinely find shield wall even more useless on perilous, as any strong enemy will immediately deplete your stamina in 1-2 hits, staggering you and making you far more vulnerable than you otherwise would be. Even weaker enemies can knock down your stamina rapidly, and I simply don't find value in building Legionnaire with loads of stamina regen to compensate for that fact. 

 

To me it's the difference between tanking for 1-2 seconds more, often ineffectually, or doing consistent damage throughout the game to large groups of enemies, whilst also being able to deal with smaller groups [even alone] because of Payback strike. 

 

I'd also point out that taunting enemies and then dodging their attacks is simply a smarter version of tanking, as you get the exact same result without taking any damage or losing any stamina. IDK, but I feel you undervalue dodging abit on tanks, whereas I see it as very strong and strafe about whenever possible to buy time and conserve my health/stamina. 

[maba987]

Exellent guide sir! I don't even play the class but I know where I'm going to go if I want to try it, thank you.

[Tieflingz]

I do see where your coming from. But I'd have to question in what scenario you end up against 2-4 weak enemies that aren't obliterated quickly in perilous. Shield Wall does block damage [from the front only] but you're doing no damage and losing stamina in that time. I find most often that the gaps between WF/CS/WC get closed quicker if I focus on crit'ing - which is much easier to do safely with payback strike as it has knock down, so you don't need to even dodge vs many enemies. 
 
Add to that the additional DPS it gives you with CS/WF up, and I honestly think it's better. Why prolong fights when you can finish them with your defensive abilities still up? Surely it's better to have *some* DPS for perilous to ensure enemies [which when taunted surround you] die quicker? It simply allows you to contribute more to the team whenever any defensive ability is up, and even when they're on cool down. 
 
Guard isn't the most potent, as you say. Realistically War Cry is best used in tandem with WF / CS [depending on enemy composition] in order to best contribute to the team. But Guard, in combination with healing-on-kill swords like Caliban, helps much more I find. 
 
I genuinely find shield wall even more useless on perilous, as any strong enemy will immediately deplete your stamina in 1-2 hits, staggering you and making you far more vulnerable than you otherwise would be. Even weaker enemies can knock down your stamina rapidly, and I simply don't find value in building Legionnaire with loads of stamina regen to compensate for that fact. 
 
To me it's the difference between tanking for 1-2 seconds more, often ineffectually, or doing consistent damage throughout the game to large groups of enemies, whilst also being able to deal with smaller groups [even alone] because of Payback strike. 
 
I'd also point out that taunting enemies and then dodging their attacks is simply a smarter version of tanking, as you get the exact same result without taking any damage or losing any stamina. IDK, but I feel you undervalue dodging abit on tanks, whereas I see it as very strong and strafe about whenever possible to buy time and conserve my health/stamina.

Contrary to what you expected, being on the offensive more often doesn't really save that much more time compared to having shield wall. Take note that having shield wall as a skill does not necessarily mean you can't sprint or evade, but it is now more of having an option to actually face tank or sprint and kite all day. Like the animation cancellation thing with weapons, the same can almost be applied to shield wall, reducing stamina regen downtime while still utilizing its blocks. And by 2-4 enemies, I have mentioned in many of my previous posts that those are normally stragglers left after heavy AoE, in which I do not wish to waste cooldowns again and leave my legionnaire hanging in the open with nothing for the next coming fight.

I've found myself kiting and LoS'ing more often enough to actually offset the time of completion compared to deflecting attacks with shield wall. Sure, having an extra offensive ability or utility ability as opposed to shield wall can be nice, this simply just boils down to group composition and making the right calls. But by taking away Shield Wall, we're also taking away a Legionnaire's indepedence.

If you are on the offensive more often, this means you are also vulnerable to attacks, especially ranged attacks (enemies who kite, such as fear demon). Sure, this could be compensated with LoS'ing the enemies, but ultimately you're still waiting behind an object and wait for your enemies to come to you. All in the meanwhile, you have to decide whether to use payback strike on the first enemy or wait while you take damage for them to group up.

Everything looks good on paper without shield wall. In actual practice, however, it simply turns legionnaire into a kiting machine should you decide to "preserve" your guard and cooldowns for the right time while doing so without shield wall. I have mentioned this before, Shield Wall is best used in conjunction between cooldowns and not for a prolonged period of time. I find little to no difference in the time of completion. The only significant difference is my score on the scoreboard as well as how many times I proc'd my Unyielding passive. And because of Unyielding procs, this means it allows for little mistakes. If a cooldown is accidently used at the wrong time, you are now vulnerable to attacks with little to no actual defense. Shield Wall, at the very least, allows mistakes to be made. And if Unyielding is proc'ing, this means your legionnaire better have Heal on Kill/Heal for 15% dmg taken items or Crit hilt/grip/rings to help you out, otherwise you'll be staring at that ability bar and praying for crit procs all day.

In conclusion, the decision points in between whether or not to take Shield Wall is if the group composition is either heavily trending towards melee or ranged and if you have the right items to help optimize the playstyle. Both are equally viable, but I wouldn't call one better than the other.

[Tieflingz]

Exellent guide sir! I don't even play the class but I know where I'm going to go if I want to try it, thank you.

Hope you try out this marvelous piece of dwarven steel, soon! I am still reworking the specialization section, so stay tuned.

[Drasca]

Yes, I am well aware that jumping at the right time will avoid any damage from the demon commander's knockup damage. Though I would like to actually see how you face tank him for the whole duration of the fight without actual shield wall to mitigate damage from that move of his.

 

I've done this on perilous. Not only on the legionaire, but the templar too via shieldwall. There are two reliable methods, both requiring you to solo him rather than worry about anything else.

 

Step Zero: Get aggro. Communicate with team and ensure you get aggro first. Taunt is an alternative, but not necessary.

Drink your spirit tonic, and have regeneration potion available. Pitch grenade also useful. s

 

Method one: Statues

Choose Orlesian Chateau, and jump on a Griffon / Lion with Wings statue. Shield wall the panic attacks, and spirit balls incoming.

 

Method two: Corner

Find a corner in any room, away from line of sight from ranged, and press your back against it. Demon commander will pop up in front of you, instead of behind. My own templar takes roughly 100-200 damage instead of signifigantly more from the front. When popped up this way. He WILL knock you around, so you will constantly reposition back into the corner, but front tanking is possible, and blocking the attack is also possible.

 

Less reliable, dwarf specific:

 

Method three: Invulnerability / Walking fortress

 

Gather as much aggro as possible, and abuse the upgraded Walking fortress ability's cooldown reduction for invincibility all the time.

 

Method four: Positional aggro pop-up

In certain positions of the map, sometimes the Demon Commander will just pop up and down instead of trying to walk around, depending on specific locations on the map. Face the DC, and shieldwall as necessary. This method is not reliable, as the locations have not been mapped yet.

 

I've fought a LOT of demon commander. You can still jump / barrier around, but these are the most reliable methods I've found. It is indeed possible to face tank him with S&S-- and I've done so on multiple occasions.

[gay_wardens]

Interesting, I never really looked at combat roll seeing that it was a utility spell for positioning. Though It takes 2 skill points to make the best out of combat roll, that extra CC break every 2 seconds can prove useful. Payback Strike along with CD/crit is almost always available whenever I needed it, but maybe I'll give this a try on the next promotion.

 

So someone explained your build in the OP to me and I decided to try it out. I've seen the error of my ways... I think I would've realized if the damn description for Walking Fortress actually TOLD you that it breaks status effects.

 

It's definitely the most viable Perilous build, but I do find sometimes that Walking Fortress is a bit excessive. Once I get bored with it I think I will max out the tree with Shield Bash and just go pure offensive Legionnaire. 

 

The description for Shield Bash should say "Many foes and allies think a shield is just for defense. You correct that mistake..."

[Tieflingz]

Hoe to perilous: win the rng lottery and play as normal.

You know, I have been trying to come up with a reply for this. And then I looked back at my written guide - many times I have mentioned some high end equipments with no regard to other "more-obtainable and still viable" items. I will definitely add some viable options in the equipment section to make it all-level, well, most-level friendly. Afterall, in retrospect, there's no point in grinding if a player already has all the Best-in-Slot equipments to begin with.